nfoligno

Some friends are having a Crawfish Boil Pary. I guess it is an annual thing. I was not planning on going, but w/o a 1st round pick, I said I would go if they have the draft on the TV. Plan to cut out around 4:30-5 to head to the bear I watch the games. Many of the other bear fans who watch the games at the bar will also be up there for the draft, where we will stay until the end of the 2nd round.

That sounds awesome. Just as long as you're there to bash Angelo on draft day Bash Angelo? I have already made a shirt where I wrote, "Jerry Angelo is my BFF" on the back.

Best case yet for a rookie pay scale. That is ignorant. Russel was the previous top paid rookie (in terms of guaranteed money) at $32m (Long took less last year w/ only $30m) But to come in and give Stafford nearly $10m more guaranteed than the previous top paid? Are you kidding me. Not only that, but this deal soars past Manning. I remember thinking, when Russel signed, that at least he was not the top paid QB in the league, as Manning was signed for more, but now a rookie QB is getting a great guaranteed portion than Manning, Brady, Manning (other one), Rothlisberger. Take your pick. The money being given to these rookies has just gotten so ridiculous that I wonder if any but the agents will fight it. I mean, the NFLPAs does not represent the kids in the draft, as they are not yet in the NFL. They represent veterans, who get hosed by these rookie deals. IMHO, it is a lock a salary scale will be put into place. What I am real curious to see is how great of a drop we see.

To take your comments a step further. So often I hear people talk about how a WR w/ speed opens up the field as defenses are forced to respect that speed. Sorry, I would disagree w/ this. Having a WR capable of running down the field is only part of it. You have to prove that you not only have a WR that can run fast down the field, but you have a QB who can hit him downfield, that WR has the hands and sight adjustment to make the catch, and you can do it more than once a game. For years I listened to fans talk about all the double coverage rolled Berrians way, but I just didn't see it. I am not saying he never saw double coverage, but I just would not agree he saw it nearly as often as some want to think. The reality is, defenses would risk playing their CB on an island against Berrian, even if Berrian had the greater speed. The reason? Because defenses knew that putting that extra player in the box to attack Rex would work even better than double teaming Berrian. Then we had Orton to Hester. Well, there is little question Hester could beat many/most DBs downfield, but (a) Orton was not exactly on target and ( even when Orton was on target, Hester was dropping the ball. So I would argue that despite all the speedy WRs we have had over the years, that has not equaled secondaries respecting the deep play. Now we have Cutler. It will be interesting to see if Cutler and Hester can begin to connect deep. If that happens, i think the happiest person on the team will be Forte. '

At least he isn't partying it up w/ Paris Hilton. I might worry then

I think it is a joke, but also think it comes w/ the territory. Chicago is a major media market, and players in such a market are going to get far more scrutiny. That is why many players enjoy smaller market teams. Again, I think it is a joke, but it doesn't shock me. The media made a big deal about the Orton partying thing too, but was it? No.

As of late, Angelo has seemed to be secure enough in his position to admit these mistakes. I got his autograph at training camp last summer, and I was surprised at how frail he looks in person (although he was riding a bike). I wonder if he's gotten to the point in his career where he can just skip a lot of the bullshit. Are you not contradicting yourself? If Angelo is above the BS, why do you say he is giving us BS when he says he is going to place more value on character, injury, etc. If Williams starts every game for the next 4 years would you still say that? The guy missed half a season. He's signed for 5 years. You don't change your philosphy based on that. I don't think it was "just" Williams, but more like Williams was the most recent straw that broke the back. I also suspect the team is really suspicious of Williams at this point. If Angelo was still so high on Williams, I would question adding Pace. I think they are more worried about Williams then they are letting on. He slipped due to injury concerns, and at the time of the draft we speculated he wouldn't play this season. He passes the "look test" in that he appears like he could be one helluva a player. Kinda skipping the point here. He was an injury risk who went down in his first NFL game. Corey Graham was in a similar position his rookie year, and he looked pretty damn good last year for a 5th round pick. Going into the season, it's easy to get excited about Bowman's potential. What more do you want from a 5th rounder? Graham fell in the draft due to injury concerns? I didn't know that. He looked great at moments, and then he'd disappear. He looks like he could be a quality defensive tackle for years to come. That's speculation of course, but the guys a rookie. I think he'll get better . . . but I was wrong once. Toenaie (or whatever his name is) looked great at moments. So what. Harrison was supposed to be a 1st round talent available in the 3rd round. That was the hype at least. I am not saying he is a bust. Far from it. But I am questioning your saying he is a "very good pick" at this time. I think he may well earn that, but just do not feel he has done so yet. It didn't matter if Bazuin was hurt . . . Bazuin sucked. Seeing how Benson's staying out of jail, as a 2nd rounder, Bazuin might be the worst pick Angelo's ever made. In Bazuin, I would actually argue he would be an example of a different "philosophy" issue. Bazuin was a prospect who many fell in love w/ due to his athleticism. I have argued for some time we place too much value on athletes over football players, and feel Bazuin is an example of this. He hasn't been great, but he's not a bust . . . he seems to be getting better and he still has the potential to be great. That's a solid pick IMO. Let me ask you this: Do you hope he's on the team next year? I do. I said he was moving toward bust status BEFORE this year. you would really argue that? He failed at both FS and CB. He was among the most hated players on the team (at least around here). He really made up a lot of ground w/ his nickel play and return ability, but still. He is a nickel DB we took w/ our top pick in the draft, and supposedly the player we traded out of the 1st round to get for better value. Sorry, but a nickel w/ your top pick is simply not very good. Do I want him on my team? Sure. So long as we look at him only as a nickel and return man, but that doesn't mean he was a solid pick at the top of the 2nd round. Sure it has to be waived . . . but to what extent? I remember you were a huge fan of Chris Williams and thought he'd be gone by the time the Bear's picked. Even more amazing was that Albert & Otah were still available. Yet we wanted Williams. Can we agree to wait until January to judge the pick? Hold the phone. I was among the very few arguing against signing Pace as I wanted to give Williams a chance. IMHO, I am among the few who truly do want to give him a chance. Damnit NFO! It's draft week! You've been slacking ever since the Cutler trade! Honestly, it's kind of eerie how few posters have been on with the draft a few days away. I believe you have the status of most posts I expect you to get busy these next few days First, I think Madlith blows me out of the water in terms of most posts. W/ that said, I am around and ready. I've been on a couple vacations since the trade. In fact, the Friday after the trade, I had to go on a camping trip w/ my daughter (Indian Princess). It killed me, but no way out of it. I also have to admit. The weather is beautiful, and I can't resit calling in sick to play some golf. Okay, I'm here and ready to explain why you are so wrong

What do you mean by eligibility? Dvoracek's a free agent after this season. Being IR'ed for 3 years straight hasn't hurt that. I don't know how many bonuses he lost out on, but being a 3rd round pick, there probably wasn't many. Wasn't this what happened to Wale and caused all the issues? He was placed on IR to start his career, and his FA was extended by a year. Also, I remember reading abouth how he was a year further from being considered vested as an NFL player in terms of benefits. As I remember it, Bazuin, Okwo, & Dvoracek all played in the final preseason games, and then were IR'ed shortly after. Dvoracek's especially stuck out in my mind because the only thing we ever heard was "foot injury." That causes a guy to miss the next 17 weeks? What the hell? It is suspicious. I thought I recall Bazuin and Okwo trying to play in the preseason, after the injury, not being able, and being IR'd. Don't recall w/ Dusty. Point is still this. I just question a player being okay w/ being told he will be on the IR, miss the entire season, if the injury is bogus. I think that would likely lead to a grievance.

I joke about that too, but I think that is more a fan fantasy on this board than reality, and has actually been talked about in the media and by Angelo himself. In reality, it is not as easy as all that to IR a player. Even if you get "team" doctors to write the report, the player has to go along w/ it, otherwise they could file a grievance. As that player loses a year of eligability, I am not sure you can count on such. Maybe its one thing when talking about a 7th round pick who has no options, but a 2nd or 3rd round pick that goes on the IR, well, I think there is more of an injury there than fans want to believe.

Two things. One. Wasn't the flag raised on Harrison character? I thought it was his character concerns which dropped him (supposedly) from 1st round to the 3rd. Two. By and large, I agree, and therefor, no worries about a 5,000 word post I have said for some time that we placed too much value on athletes over football players. Everyone always says you can't teach speed, but I would counter that w/, you can't teach instinct. If it were so easy, we would see far more track stars playing football, but that just isn't reality. I would also agree we have often taken players w/ red flags in terms of injury and character, and too often those picks have blown up in our faces. Thus, I like the idea that we are going to place more emphasis on getting solid character, injury free "football players" this year.

#1--I don't believe what JA is saying here: If I remember correctly, a few years ago Angelo talked about drafting "High character players" and then he drafted Dvoracek, who got drunk and beat his friend into a coma. This just seems like a bunch of hot air. Kind of like saying, "We'll take the best player available" and you damn well know "The best player available" will happen to be a WR. With the injuries, JA is just saying he's doing his homework. Something that stands out to me though is, Angelo dang near seems to be admitting past mistakes. That is unusual, and far beyond the typical GM hot air we most often hear this time of year. #2--Bad player examples: Chris Williams, in 4 years of college, missed one day of practice and zero games. He returned to the Bears by mid-season. Are you saying we wouldn't have drafted him due to injury concerns? He may not have missed games in college, but before the draft, there were tons of rumors that doctors round problems prior to the draft, leading numerour teams who were high on him to drop him down, or off, their board. And then he is injured. Sorry, but how is this not a good example? Harrison & Bowman both look like very nice picks. Um, why does Bowman look like a "very nice" pick? He was an injury risk who went down for the season in his first game. As for Harrison, I think it a tad early to say "very nice" pick. While I have hope as well, I would point out he did exactly light a fire last year. Similar to the situation for Bennett at WR, the opportunity was wide open and there for Harrison to take, but he wasn't able to do so. He was a nice player last year, but sure didn't seem (IMHO) to live up to the hopes of those who were talking about how this 1st round talent fell to the 3rd due to character issues. Bazuin was a terrible pick. Injury had nothing to do with that. Didn't he go on IR in his rookie camp? D Manning's never hurt, he started tons of games at FS, he looked great at nickel and was the #1 punt return man in the NFL. Solid pick. Solid pick? Sorry, no way. Who cares if he started tons of games at FS. He sucked. Davis started a bunch of games at WR. Does that mean he is better than we make out? DM did look good as a nickel, but teams are not usually looking to draft nickel DBs w/ their high 2nd round picks, especially when you consider that was the player we were supposedly targetting when we traded out of the 1st round. I would say that this past season made him look better, but would not say he would represent a "good pick". Mark Bradley: I'll give you that. But that's one example. #3--You're saying it's ok to draft a health risk in round 3 (Harrison) and round #5 (Bowman) but not in round #2 (Bradley)? So you're saying Angelo should be careful with that one 2nd round pick we have? Yes. The later the pick, the more risk you can take. The 2nd round is a bit high to take high risk in the 1st place, but when your 2nd round pick is also your 1st pick in the draft, I would argue that is even more true. As the draft goes along, you can take more risks, but in the 1st and 2nd rounds (1st day of the draft) I think the flags have to be weighed heavier. Sorry to be so damn argumentative, but NFO hasn't been around much lately so I figured someone had to pick up the slack I've been around, just not as much time to reply.

First, let me say, I agree we will go WR in the 2nd, and then FS in the 3rd or 4th. But regarding Johnson and his weight, I would say this. Players often face weight changes moving from offense to defense. But in the NFL, players move under the guidance of professional nutritionists and weight trainers. From what I read, Johnson has already said he has been working w/ a nutritionist to improve his weight. I think he played at 200lbs early on, but as w/ all players, lost weight as the season went on, and played closer to 185 by the end. But get him under a solid program, and I think his weight can not only increase, but he can do a better job maintaining that weight. I know weight is in fact an issue and concern, but at the same time, there is simply too much I like about RJ. Further, I believe that while his weight is an issue, as a 2nd round pick, the risk/reward is right.

Personally, I am a big fan of Rashad Johnson, and would like him over numerous WRs talked about in the 2nd. I would take Nicks and Robiskie over him, but honestly, I would rather have RJ over Harvin, Britt, Mossaquoi, Iglesias or anyone else I am forgetting.

I guess I made the comment that a move like this will forever to tied to Angelo in terms of legacy. Some then argued this, but that is how I see it. This is a move on such a level that, good or bad, Angelo's legacy will by and large be tied to this move. Disagree for the most part. If Cutler's great, JA's legacy will be that he finally fixed the QB problem. If Cutler is just mediocre, he'll just be another bad QB. Here's why I disagree: Fans generally don't blame JA for spending money on guys who fail. We either blame the player or the coaches. We get pissed when guys like Moose, RMJ, or even Wale cash that huge check and their production drops. We wonder what the hell the coaches are doing. Heck, with Archuletta, we mostly blamed Lovie for wanting "his guy." I'm not saying every fan feels this way, but it happens more often then not. Especially when you compare it to the sheer anger fans feel when a first round pick is a bust (thanks Cedric.) We act like we want to murder JA when he misses on those picks. I guess we just disagree. I think plenty blame Angelo for, for example, Moose. But I would also point out it is hard to make a comparison here. What FA move has Angelo ever made the compares? Wale, Tait and Moose are the three biggest moves that come to mind, and none are even close. But in even those three, Wale and Tait may not have been elite, but were solid enough to keep Angelo from major bashing. Moose? I think more ripped him for the move than you think. Trading 2 first rounders will help JA either way. If Cutler's just average, we won't blame JA for trying. If Cutler is horrible, he'll probably be hurt, which again will not be Angelo's fault. The only way I see this trade biting Angelo in the ass is if Orton becomes better then Cutler. If that's the case, JA might as well start packing his bags. My bad, as I obviously failed to mention a belief of mine. I believe Orton will be good in Denver. I do not think he will be great, and would not expect equal success here. But in Denver, he has better coaching and surrounding talent, and I personally think he can be a good QB. So, while I failed to point it out, I do think Orton does well, and thus if Cutler bombs....... Agreed. Again, everything we've said or done indicates that this is the direction were headed. IMO, it's not a question of WR vs. safety, but it's just a question of which WR will it be. Well, at least we agree here Here is my hope at this point. 1. No question my A#1 hope is that Nicks slips all the way to us. In the last few weeks, Nicks stock has fallen some (weight/wonderlic) while a couple other players has risen. Further, some players expected to go WR are now thought to potentially go w/ another position. If we were to add Nicks, combined w/ Cutler and the OL upgrades, I can't tell you how much I would be gushing over Angelo. 2. Robiskie is just a tad below Nicks in my book, and again, I would be thrilled like I can't explain. Personally, after Robiskie, I think I would just as soon go FS or trade down. If we have to go WR, I think I would rather reach for Iglesias over some of the other prospects I have heard mentioned.

Can I have R. Johnson? I know that is not your question, but if there is in fact a run on WRs, that means other players are slipping a bit. My preference is always to avoid drafting at the backend of a run. Sometimes you can't avoid it, but I do not want to draft players who do not belong in the 2nd just because of a prior run on WRs. I would also make this point. The more teams that draft a WR in front of us (1st and 2nd round) the fewer teams likely to draft WR after us. Thus, I would argue several of the WRs we may be talking about w/ our 2nd round pick could still be there in the 3rd. But back to your question, as I know you would otherwise give me grief for my non-answer I personally like Iglesias more than Britt. I am just not a fan of Britt. However, the general consensus is Britt is a FAR better talent. So if Britt were to slip to us in the 2nd, then he would be a far greater value, as well as a prospect w/ a considerably higher floor. From pretty much day one, this has been my hope/value outlook Nicks - 1st round Robiskie - 2nd round Iglesias - 3rd round I think those three players are all somewhat similar in style, though the talent different dictates the round value. Now, Robiskie has risen, as has Iglesias, and we don't have a 1st. So at this point, I just pray Nicks or Robiskie slip to us. If not, I would still prefer to look at Iglesias in the 3rd, rather than reach for him in the 2nd.

I agree all that stuff you mention matters and is meaningful. And that is why players move up and down some in the offseason. But that does not explain (for me) a player jumping as much as Moss and some others. Hey, I agree it is a crapshoot. But even in craps, you have different bets w/ different odds. A deal w/ tell you some bets are sucker bets. That doesn't mean they will never pay off. It just means your odds are worse. On the other hand, if you play the bets which have the best odds, again, you are guaranteed nothing. You simply have greater odds of hitting. So I agree the draft is like craps, and it is all a crap shoot. But I also think that if you have a player like Mossaquoi who soars up the charts in the offseason, he is (to me) viewed more as a higher risk bet.

Honestly, all the reach talk gets away from the point. A player rising in value in the offseason is different from reaching for a player on draft day. Lets say that on draft day, we took Mossaquoi in the 2nd or 3rd round, and lets further say that on draft day, that is the general consensus of his value. But whether he is a perceived value or not on draft day isn't the issue. The issue is how much his value rose due not to his play on the field, but how he looked in the offseason in shorts. That was my point all along. I question players who's value take dramatic rises in the offseason. Its one thing for a minor school prospect who may do very well on the field, but flies under the radar due to the level of competition, but then looks good, for example, in the senior bowl or something. But Mossaquoi played for a big school, and if he wasn't in the spotlight, it wasn't because of the team he played on. We entered the offseason, and few knew of him. Then we start to hear, "watch out for this player in the late rounds". Suddenly, he shows up at workouts, and in shorts puts on an impressive display, and his stock goes up. And it continues to climb for some reason until he is eventually talked about in the 2nd round. That is my issue. A guy who goes from being talked about as like a 5th or 6th round prospect leaping all the way to the 2nd or 3rd round, based not on his field play/production, but what he did in shorts. That is simply different from draft day value or reaches. If we took him in, say, the 3rd round, it may not be viewed as a reach, as his stock has climbed that high. I simply have an issue w/ such a dramatic stock climb.

Frankly, the original point has been diverted. My point was simply that I believe Angelo will make a move w/ the 1st pick in the draft to ensure his key acquisition. My point is, Angelo knows everything will ride on how well Cutler does. Further, I argue that our staff is not blind and realize how dire our need for help at WR is. To add Cutler is awesome, but you must then make sure you have talent in place for him to be able to realize his talent. Thus, I believe we will draft a WR in the 2nd round to essentially insure our bet on Cutler. I guess I made the comment that a move like this will forever to tied to Angelo in terms of legacy. Some then argued this, but that is how I see it. This is a move on such a level that, good or bad, Angelo's legacy will by and large be tied to this move. Anyway, back to the original point. We made a massive move in getting Cutler, and I believe we will now insure that move w/ a WR in the 2nd round.

One or two I think, which would fall w/in the time frame of what I am saying for Angelo. Angelo has what, 4 years left. If we were to bomb the next two seasons, then he would have 2 years remaining, and I think would absolutely be in jeapordy.

Not sure anyone does. I think Holt will end up getting a fairly short term deal, but maybe loaded w/ incentives. Due to his age and drop in production, I simply have a hard time seeing him getting a deal similar to Hous, which I think was in the $8m/yr range.

Just not sure I agree w/ that. Wanny and Jauron both were fired prior to the end of their contract. I realize Angelo is a GM and they were coaches, but we do not have a GM in recent history to use as a reference, and thus I would argue a head coach is as close as we can get to compare to. If the team does decent or well, sure, Angelo is most likely safe, but if we start putting up multiple seasons, I think we could see Angelo fired prior to the end of his contract.

I don't know. I think recent WR deals may have made it difficult. He may still believe his value is higher than it is, and only time to force him to accept he is simply not going to get a deal, even such as an older Wr like TJ hous received.

Not sure whether it is reported what the substance a player tested positive for is reported or not, but assuming it is, I would think a positive test on performance enhancing stuff would look even worse. If a player test positive for pot (for example) a red flag is waived, but such a positive test result does not reflect on the player's performance. However, if a player tests positive for a enhancement, then I think that players entire college production can be calling into question. How can you know the player was clean in college? And while there may be a more understandable reason why a player would take a performance enhancement prior to the combine, as opposed to smoking pot, I do not think it makes the player look any less ignorant. The player still knows he will be tested, and thus, must be stupid as hell to think he will get away with such.

I understand your reasoning. As I said, you will never see me complain about the move, regardless what happens from here on w/ Cutler, or Orton. At the same time, i still believe Angelo is now tied to this move. This is a HUGE move, and one simply not often seen. I would argue that such a move simply has immediate effect on the legacy of an individual. Today, I think everyone is thrilled, but I simply believe that if it doesn't work, we will here a massive level of second guessing by those w/ short term memory. Often, if a GM drafted a QB w/ the 1st pick in the draft, his legacy can be tied to that player. Here, Angelo didn't use the #1 pick in the draft, but did use two #1s, a 3rd and a QB to get a QB he views as a franchise QB. I just feel that if it doesn't work out, Angelo will find himself on the outs as well. Honestly, I think all this talk is moot. I think Cutler was well worth the price, and Cutler will be great. At the same time, I simply believe Angelo will be looking to backup the move he made by drafting the best WR available in the 2nd round. I would also argue that is the smart thing to do. If you do go out and add a player of such a level of Cutler, I think you must then do whatever it takes to support such a move.

At this point, I think it possible he is holding out until after the draft. After the draft, there will be teams who are in need of a WR, but didn't get one in the draft. Take the bears simply as an example. No question we have a big need at WR, but what there is a run on WRs and we take R. Johnson in the 2nd and then a DE (like Sidbury) falls to us in the 3rd and Angelo can't pass him up. We then would be looking at a 4th round WR, which may be a nice prospect, but not likely what you want to rely on heading into the season, thus our need for a WR in FA goes up. Other teams could run into a similar situation, and thus Holt's value could go up. It is a bit of a risk, as it is possible teams w/ WR as a high need all draft a WR early, but I think there is a pretty good chance there will be teams looking for a WR after the draft, and at this point, that may be what Holt is waiting on.