Knox injured???

[azbearsfan]

Um, so you use for example one play, w/ a CB who has played his way out of the starting line up?

 

Sure, if we play bump and run, we are going to see players beaten. Guess what. I have seen our DBs get beaten when the play soft too.

 

For the record, I am not saying our CBs should be playing bump and run coverage. I would love to see it, but I have no clue if they are capable of doing that. At the same time, does it have to be one extreme or the other? Does it have to be the CB playing on the LOS or 10 yards back? Why can't a CB play about 4 yards off the LOS, keeping him in position to still have some cushion while also being in legal range to pump the WR if he trys to break into a slant and knock him off his route.

 

 

Just answering your question on why we dont play the corners up, chief.

 

Thats why we dont do it.

[nfoligno]

Good discussion points and comments. Yea, we see eye to eye on this pretty much all around. I am not a huge fan of the cover two to begin w/, but the way we have been playing it (especially under Babich) seems to only expose already known weaknesses of the scheme.

 

You mention things Lovie has done different this year. Frankly, I still see a lot of what you and I have already listed as problems of the past, but to me, the 2 key things Lovie has done different is (a) mixing it up far more and ( adjusting on the fly.

 

(a) mixing it up - Under Babich, what blitz did we most often see? Urlacher up the gut. When it wasn't Urlacher blitzing, what did we see? Another player blitzing up the gut. In an ideal world, your DTs are creating a lot of penetration, and thus the middle is more exposed for an inside blitz, but due to weak DT play, all the inside blizers found was a sealed off wall. Thus we took a defensive player out of coverage and saw zero added pass rush. The few, and I mean very few, times I saw us blitz outside under Babich, it often resulted in a pressure or sack. IMHO, that is because it was simply so unexpected.

 

Under Lovie, we have blitzed from all over, and I love it. An offense simply does not know where the blitz is coming from this year. Last year, you may not know whether Urlacher, Briggs or a safety was going to blitz, but you knew that it was most likely going to be up the gut, thus you could more easily block/defend it. This year, It could come from anywhere. I think this has been huge. Not only in how and where we blitz, but we have also mixed it up overall more too. I have seen us drop DEs into coverage while blitzing 2. We mix up man coverage and zone more as well. Under Babich, I thought it was rare we played man coverage, but thus far under Lovie, I have seen us do it more often. So I think our mixing it up more has created more confusion for offenses, and make us more difficult to defend. Simply put, Lovie has not been as predictable as Babich was.

 

( Adjustments - Pre-game planning and prep can be questioned, but that aside, i think we have done a much better job making adjustments. In the Detroit game, for whatever reason, we started out matching Bowman on Calvin Johnson, and even playing him often on an island. We can question that move, but the point here is, we did make an adjustment. We moved Tillman over CJ and also played more cover 2, giving Tillman over the top support. That saw a dramatic difference in production for CJ in the 2nd half. That is just one example, but overall, it seems like we have made more adjustments, and often done so w/o waiting until half time. Lovie simply has a far better grasp of defense in general, and thus is more able to adjust on the fly. Babich simply didn't have the depth of knowledge to adjust on the fly.

 

The one other aspect of our scheme I want to throw out there, which execution is hurting, is tackling. You hear it a thousand times, but a huge key in the cover 2 is tackling. You allow that 3-6 yard pass often enough, but the idea is you don't allow any yards after the catch. You allow that short completion, but nothing more. We are allowing that short completion, but we are also allowing far too many yards after the catch, and weak tackling (which includes the angles a player takes and not just blowing the tackle itself) is really hurting us. Take the Seattle game where Julius Jones had the big play for a score. If Tillman makes the tackle, Jones has a nice gain, but he does not score, but because of a blown tackle, its 6 points.

 

This is right on the money. Even in a perfect world, the Tampa 2 still has a seam between the CB's coverage zone and the OLB's zone. That's why people call quick slants to beat a Tampa 2 look. However, if you're rushing 4 and lining up the linebackers relatively deep, like the scheme calls for, that slant should be in pretty tight coverage. The WR should initially be covered by the CB, then he should get passed off to the OLB as he heads toward the middle. If you attack that seam against a base Tampa 2 look, you're throwing a 4-5 yard pass into what's effectively double coverage, so any completions should be for a pretty short gain: 4-5 yards with little or no YAC. If you blitz/mug the LBs up near the line of scrimmage, though, you take them out of position to cover.

 

The 2007-2008 defense blitzed the OLBs while playing the corners off as if they had OLB help. So there was a big hole in coverage over the middle, and teams picked them apart with passes to the seam whenever they saw a blitz. So Babich threw in a lot of fake blitzes (the "mug" look from last season) which let the LBs cover, but still put them out of position to get to the seam in time. Same result - quick slant gets 10 yards every time.

 

I think the coverage has looked much better since Lovie started calling the plays. He's still blitzing the LBs, but I haven't seen the giant hole over the middle that was there all last season: for the most part, the corners have been playing like they don't have help when we blitz. They might not jam at the line much, but they're playing tighter when we blitz. There have been a couple of blown coverages (like when Vasher and Payne got torched by Greg Jennings) but that's not the same as the constant slants that were basically against air last year. I mean, Brian Griese threw for 400 yards on us, and I don't think I saw him complete a single pass longer than about 12 yards. He just took that 10-yard slant all day long.

 

Also, Lovie's been blitzing on early downs, then going into the Tampa 2, WITHOUT the mug, on 3rd down and in passing situations. One of the things I hated about Babich's playcalling was that he would use that unsound, hole-over-the-middle blitz/mug on 3rd and long, when you KNEW the other team had to pass. Predictably, we'd give up 12 or 15 yards and a 1st down.

 

Even when the Tampa 2 is working, the seam is a weakness: people are going to send a TE down that seam or slant a receiver into it, and there are going to be some short completions before the CB or OLB gets there for the tackle. It's frustrating to watch, but it's not a problem until it starts leading to opposing 1st downs. Our defense is the best in the league right now at forcing 3rd-down-and-10-or-longer: we can afford to move back to the Tampa 2 in those situations, as long as Lovie keeps playing the LBs deep so we only give up 4-5 yards on a slant, instead of 10.

 

[nfoligno]

But I am not sure that showing one example should be considered a legit reason.

 

Is it your belief that in all the time Lovie has been here, and looking at all the CBs we have used, none have been even capable of playing tight to the LOS? None?

 

If it were just this CB or that, it would be one thing, but Harris, Azumah, Tillman, Vasher, Bowman, Graham, McBride... Any CB we have lined up has played deep off the LOS. I just question the idea that no CB we have had on the roster is able to play bump and run. I would argue that if we used bump and run coverage more, we would practice it more, and our CBs may become better at it.

 

 

 

Just answering your question on why we dont play the corners up, chief.

 

Thats why we dont do it.

 

[madlithuanian]

Loving the discussion fellas! Keep it up! I wish I could add more, but I'd bring the level of debate down!

[azbearsfan]

But I am not sure that showing one example should be considered a legit reason.

 

Is it your belief that in all the time Lovie has been here, and looking at all the CBs we have used, none have been even capable of playing tight to the LOS? None?

 

If it were just this CB or that, it would be one thing, but Harris, Azumah, Tillman, Vasher, Bowman, Graham, McBride... Any CB we have lined up has played deep off the LOS. I just question the idea that no CB we have had on the roster is able to play bump and run. I would argue that if we used bump and run coverage more, we would practice it more, and our CBs may become better at it.

 

 

Which CB do you want playing bump and run?

 

 

This defense is supposed to take away the big play and force the short completion where the CB's and LB's run to the ball and create turnovers.

 

If you play these corners up, they will give up the big play. You have seen the proof.

 

 

Do I need to bring up Steve Smith?

 

 

[nfoligno]

Um, I recall Steve Smith well, but I also recall our trying to play him every which way, and none worked. We didn't play bump and run all game. We played him w/ safety help over the top also, and still got burned. Sorry, but that doesn't prove jack as even using the Lovie method did nothing to stop him.

 

Two main points here.

 

One. If you play cover two, and have safety over the top to help, I just don't see why there is as great of a fear of getting burned deep. In fact, I would argue that if you play the WR a little tighter, you may buy the safety time to get into position, and thus improve your chances to avoid a deep play.

 

Two. Due to how we play our safeties and LBs, I think we too often even allow too many yards on what is supposed to only allow 3 - 6 yard gains.

 

My biggest issue though is, why does it have to be one extreme or the other? I am not saying our CBs should play on top of the LOS. But at the same time, do they have to line up 10 yards off the LOS? Our CBs line up so far off the LOS, that too often, even those quick catches we allow go for too many yards as there is simply too much space between the CB and WR after the catch.

 

Which CB do you want playing bump and run?

 

 

This defense is supposed to take away the big play and force the short completion where the CB's and LB's run to the ball and create turnovers.

 

If you play these corners up, they will give up the big play. You have seen the proof.

 

 

Do I need to bring up Steve Smith?

 

[madlithuanian]

Seems logical to me...

 

My biggest issue though is, why does it have to be one extreme or the other? I am not saying our CBs should play on top of the LOS. But at the same time, do they have to line up 10 yards off the LOS? Our CBs line up so far off the LOS, that too often, even those quick catches we allow go for too many yards as there is simply too much space between the CB and WR after the catch.

 

[azbearsfan]

Um, I recall Steve Smith well, but I also recall our trying to play him every which way, and none worked. We didn't play bump and run all game. We played him w/ safety help over the top also, and still got burned. Sorry, but that doesn't prove jack as even using the Lovie method did nothing to stop him.

 

Two main points here.

 

One. If you play cover two, and have safety over the top to help, I just don't see why there is as great of a fear of getting burned deep. In fact, I would argue that if you play the WR a little tighter, you may buy the safety time to get into position, and thus improve your chances to avoid a deep play.

 

Two. Due to how we play our safeties and LBs, I think we too often even allow too many yards on what is supposed to only allow 3 - 6 yard gains.

 

My biggest issue though is, why does it have to be one extreme or the other? I am not saying our CBs should play on top of the LOS. But at the same time, do they have to line up 10 yards off the LOS? Our CBs line up so far off the LOS, that too often, even those quick catches we allow go for too many yards as there is simply too much space between the CB and WR after the catch.

 

 

Look,

 

there are no corners on this team besides maybe Bowman that I want bumping and running. Even if you have safety help the corners have to slow the WR's down enough for the safeties to be effective. Especially with a two receiver side. Its what your theory for point one is. But look at the Vasher play, he didn't slow anything down. You have to have a certain type of corner to play that.

 

And our CB's dont always line up 10 yards off the ball. They change their depths throughout the game.

 

Again this type of defense is designed to prevent big plays and get turnovers. Its going to give up yardage. Thats just the nature of the beast. Although people dont like it, its what we run.