TalkBears FF 2010 Options

[flea]

Memo to Last years Keeper League Owners.

Okay, thanks to flea, I went back into last year's FF league site and read through some old comments/posts. Besides locking in our owners, I think we need to make sure we get a number of things truly settled before moving forward. I think we voted on some, or maybe all, of this stuff but did so on this message board, rather than the league site, so I am not sure where to find those old votes. Here are some of the issues from the end of last season.

1. Money. There was talk about raising the entry amount. Someone mentioned upping to buy in to $50. Another mentioned an increase of $5. Considering the economy of today, I personally think the more modest increase is better. So if it has not already been voted on, I would propose the entry amount be $25.

with 5 kids getting ready for school & a couple of other money leagues I'd find it hard to go higher than $25

2. Money Part Two. We need to establish UP FRONT what the payouts are. We already knew the winners last year and were debating/discussing how to split it up. I think that needs to be settled up front.

Agreed

3. Money Part Three. One thing I proposed last year was, in addition to a top 3 team payout, we add in an extra small payout or two. One that I always liked was paying out (usually the buy-in amount) to the team with the one week high score. One thing I always liked about this was, even teams who are out of the hunt for the big money prizes still have a reason to participate. At the end of the year, when you know you are out of it, you can still essentially win your money back with one big week from your team.

Like this idea

4. Keepers. I know this was heavily discussed and debated here on the boards, and ultimately voted on. Drunk has said he would try and look up the results of those votes. What I "think" I remember was 2 keepers, from anywhere in the draft, giving up one round higher than drafted, which by rule would disallow keeping last year's first round picks. Also, to be eligible for keeper status, that player had to be drafted and kept on your roster all year. If he was a waiver pickup, or cut due to injury, he is not eligible. That is what i recall. Let me know if that is wrong.

2 keepers, 1st rounder ineligible were definitely voted. I don't like loosing a pick above where ya drafted a player & would prefer to loose the pick where you drafted him

5. How do we handle the keeper part of the league for new team owners. If one, or more, owners quit, and are replaced by new owners, do those owners get to keep players based on a prior owners drafting, or do they have to start from scratch?

new members should be allowed keepers

Anyone else have any other "issues" to add. As I said, there was a lot of discussion at the end of the season which really should have been dealt with prior to the start of the season. It was the first year for our league, and thus issues were inevitable, but I think we should be able to iron things out this year.

[DrunkBomber]

Memo to Last years Keeper League Owners.

Okay, thanks to flea, I went back into last year's FF league site and read through some old comments/posts. Besides locking in our owners, I think we need to make sure we get a number of things truly settled before moving forward. I think we voted on some, or maybe all, of this stuff but did so on this message board, rather than the league site, so I am not sure where to find those old votes. Here are some of the issues from the end of last season.

1. Money. There was talk about raising the entry amount. Someone mentioned upping to buy in to $50. Another mentioned an increase of $5. Considering the economy of today, I personally think the more modest increase is better. So if it has not already been voted on, I would propose the entry amount be $25.

$25 is fine with me. If anyone wants to keep it at $20 its fine too.


2. Money Part Two. We need to establish UP FRONT what the payouts are. We already knew the winners last year and were debating/discussing how to split it up. I think that needs to be settled up front.

Top 3 got paid. Whoever it was what was the amount and what place did you come in? I want to say it was 60/30/10 but I think maybe 3rd got more than their money back. This will be easy enough to find out. We voted on this too and will keep the payout.

3. Money Part Three. One thing I proposed last year was, in addition to a top 3 team payout, we add in an extra small payout or two. One that I always liked was paying out (usually the buy-in amount) to the team with the one week high score. One thing I always liked about this was, even teams who are out of the hunt for the big money prizes still have a reason to participate. At the end of the year, when you know you are out of it, you can still essentially win your money back with one big week from your team.

Fine with me. Unless anyone objects we can throw it in

4. Keepers. I know this was heavily discussed and debated here on the boards, and ultimately voted on. Drunk has said he would try and look up the results of those votes. What I "think" I remember was 2 keepers, from anywhere in the draft, giving up one round higher than drafted, which by rule would disallow keeping last year's first round picks. Also, to be eligible for keeper status, that player had to be drafted and kept on your roster all year. If he was a waiver pickup, or cut due to injury, he is not eligible. That is what i recall. Let me know if that is wrong.

Yes, this is what we voted on

5. How do we handle the keeper part of the league for new team owners. If one, or more, owners quit, and are replaced by new owners, do those owners get to keep players based on a prior owners drafting, or do they have to start from scratch?

IMO without question a new owner inherits the roster of the gm leaving. Its not fair to have them start from scratch. I also say if it ever comes up where theres more than 1 opening then its first come first serve for choice of team.

Anyone else have any other "issues" to add. As I said, there was a lot of discussion at the end of the season which really should have been dealt with prior to the start of the season. It was the first year for our league, and thus issues were inevitable, but I think we should be able to iron things out this year.

Id also like to add that I dont think anyone should HAVE to keep anyone, they just have a full draft. Makes sense to me if you only want to keep one or none than fine.

[sulster]

Wow....I took brandon Jacobs in the 2nd. Talk about ass clown pick

[nfoligno]

Flea,

Regarding the idea of losing a pick higher than when you took him, I think there are a couple reasons for this.

One, It automatically prevents an owner from keeping a 1st rounder.

Two, it factors in the natural progression of players. It matters a bit less on players taken later in the draft, but players taken early who take that proverbial next step simply cost a bit more. Often, this rule prevents most 1st round picks from being "kept" as they were either 1st rounders the year before, or 2nd rounders, and thus the price doesn't make it worth keeping them this year. So, most of the top tier studs are still available in the draft, and you are not faced with taken 2nd/3rd tier players with your first pick.

Three, puts a higher value on taking some risks later in the draft. Frankly, this is one of my favorite parts of the keeper league. Its just not as fun when you are keeping the every year studs. Its more fun, IMHO, when you take risks on rookies and 2nd year unproven players later in the draft that end up hitting big.

[nfoligno]

One more thing I think should be established.

How long can you keep a player. I'll use my example. I am likely going to keep Mendenhall this year. Do I get to keep him next year, or does he go back into the pool? Some leagues allow a player to be kept essentially forever. Some restrict the keeper to one year. Others set a 2 or 3 year keeper allowance.

My vote would be one year. That rewards the owner who made the good pick without giving him a long term advantage.

Its almost that time of year again so I figured I would start gauging interest for fantasy football. We have our Talkbears keeper league with I believe 9 returning and 1 spot available. I want to get confirmation from everyone in the league before we let new people join.

We will also have free leagues for anyone wishing to play. So if you are interested in playing this year please post in this thread and we will see what kind of interest we have and how many leagues we will need.

[nfoligno]

Trust me, you have plenty of company. If it were not for some picks I made in the mid teens, I am not sure I would even be keeping a player. The only reason I think I was decent last year was due to a couple waiver wire additions, and a couple later round picks that did well.

Wow....I took brandon Jacobs in the 2nd. Talk about ass clown pick

[nfoligno]

I've had some time to think on it, and I too agree (and vote) that a new teams gets to inherit a previous owners roster. If Pix is indeed out, and Mad is taking his slot, Pix's roster (and keeper options) are his. If other owners drop out and we add to replace, as you said, first come rule.

Agreed also that an owner doesn't have to keep anyone.

Id also like to add that I dont think anyone should HAVE to keep anyone, they just have a full draft. Makes sense to me if you only want to keep one or none than fine.

[Pixote]

I guess I do need to confirm, although I truly love FF, I am going to take a year off. I have some other things going on and I do not want to take time out from what is more important to obsess over a FF roster. I would prefer to reserve any free time I can muster up to follow the Bears and any other games I can catch. I actually have Directv NFL Sunday Ticket this year and am looking forward to being able to watch any game I want live.

Best of luck to all of you. Next year if there is an opening maybe I will jump back in.

[bradjock]

2 Questions:

1. How the heck do we manage the keepers? Isn't that a pain in the butt? I probably want Tashard Choice in the 15th round . . .

I assume the draft order be opposite of place?

If that's the case, the draft order would be:
1. Bluecollarbears
2. Noppar
3. Papabear
4. Branch Palinians
5. Cali Bears
6. Black and Blues Brothers
7. Acedthesobrietytest
8. Brass Cajones
9. Devil Dogs
10. Crushers

[sulster]

I say if you decide to keep your 1st round pick you only keep 1 guy. If you decide not keep your 1st round pick from last year, you get to keep 2 guys from last year

[nfoligno]

Sulster,

We voted at the end of the year, and I am pretty sure part of that vote was to excluse 1st round keepers. If we want to re-vote, that is fine, but that is still how I would vote. The key issue I have with keeping 1st round players is this. A person who gets a high pick in the draft, and thus takes one of the elite players, should not be rewarded, IMHO, a 2nd year for that one piece of luck.

I say if you decide to keep your 1st round pick you only keep 1 guy. If you decide not keep your 1st round pick from last year, you get to keep 2 guys from last year

[nfoligno]

Brad,

I have not run a league, but I do not think it is difficult. Maybe it once was, but keepers is a pretty common thing these days, and I think most leagues are set up to manage them within the draft.

As for the 2nd question, I have always played where you redo the draft order. In reality, you base draft order on last years results, but the reason for doing that is to benefit the team that sucks. That isn't the reality of FF though as each owner has a new team each year, and thus the rationale for basing your order on last years standings sort of goes out the window.

2 Questions:

1. How the heck do we manage the keepers? Isn't that a pain in the butt? I probably want Tashard Choice in the 15th round . . .

I assume the draft order be opposite of place?

If that's the case, the draft order would be:
1. Bluecollarbears
2. Noppar
3. Papabear
4. Branch Palinians
5. Cali Bears
6. Black and Blues Brothers
7. Acedthesobrietytest
8. Brass Cajones
9. Devil Dogs
10. Crushers

[sulster]

Ok, I thought we still deciding what we were still doing. With all questions and answers I got discombobulated a little. I will just wait patiently for the email that has all the final stipulations in place and pay my $25.

[MadLithuanian]

Agreed...

One more thing I think should be established.

How long can you keep a player. I'll use my example. I am likely going to keep Mendenhall this year. Do I get to keep him next year, or does he go back into the pool? Some leagues allow a player to be kept essentially forever. Some restrict the keeper to one year. Others set a 2 or 3 year keeper allowance.

My vote would be one year. That rewards the owner who made the good pick without giving him a long term advantage.

[MadLithuanian]

What I had seen before was each team keeps 2 players, regardless of where drafted. Then the draft begins anew in opposite finishing order of the previous season.

You could only retain those 2 players for one year, then repeat again.

It was simple, but worked. There seems to be lots of variations on a theme. I'm just excited to get into a keeper league again after many years of not being in a keeper.

I guess it is less likely in our league. In the league I previously played, you had the option to keep a player, but you also had to pay extra. I think it cost another $25. Often it was worth it, but frankly, more often than you might think, an owners keeper options just weren't that great.

One, players drafted in the earlier part of the draft don't too often rise more than a round worth. For example, last year I took Schaub in the 4th. If I am picking at the top of the 3rd round this year, is Schaub that great of a keeper value?

Two, while you often see "hits" with later draft picks, they are not as common as you might think. You start taking a lot of chances that simply don't pay off.

Three, often you draft a player that would be nice keeper value, only to realize you cut that player. There is often so much turnover between the draft and the end of the season that an owners keeper options are more limited than you might think. Take the above player as an example. Even if you felt Schaub was a 1st round value, and thus a solid keeper value for me, it wouldn't matter as I had traded him during the season.

Right now, I am liking my keeper potential. I took Mendenhall with the 13 pick, and thus he would cost me only a 12 round pick. As many are going to consider him a top 10 RB, that is awesome value. Others I like that I will choose from: Hakeem Nicks taken in the 14th round, Brent Celek taken in the 17th round and....well....that's probably it, sad to say. Take a look at the post Flea provided. There are definitely some solid keeper values, but not as many as you might think, especially when you start to knock out the players who were injured (and thus cut) and players who were traded.

Put this is perspective. Take a look at Pix's old team. Who would you be looking at keeping. I think he was Brass Cajones. If you want to keep Nate Keading for a 16th pick, tell you what, I will vote in your favor

[nfoligno]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash or anything.

We had a vote on some of the issues last year, like some of the keeper rules and payouts. It has been a while since those votes, so there has been some discussion as to how the voting results went, but also, there have been several new issues which have been raised going forward adding to the discussion.

Based on my memory, which isn't all that, we choose to keep two players, giving up a round earlier then when drafted originally, which would also by rule excluse 1st round picks. If you wish to re-visit the issue though, I am not saying that isn't possible.

As I have said before, this is a new league, and with any new league, you have "issues" to resolve. In another keeper league I was in, I swear we voted on new rules every year for over 10 years, and the early years had many new votes/discussions. Nothing wrong with bringing such discussions to the table. In the end, if owners are not happy with the setup, they will not stick with the league, and in a keeper league (IMHO) having owners return is a key.

Ok, I thought we still deciding what we were still doing. With all questions and answers I got discombobulated a little. I will just wait patiently for the email that has all the final stipulations in place and pay my $25.

[sulster]

From all the keeper leagues I've been involved in, there were no restrictions on which players you can keep. Pick your 2 players and your first 2 rounds have been picked. Once you submit your 2 names prior to the draft, there is no switching unless of injury. You don't have to keep any if you don't want to

[nfoligno]

I guess what I really dislike about this is you benefit two years simply due to where you got to pick out of the draft lottery. If a guy gets the 10th pick in the draft, he can still draft great players, but whoever got the top pick seems to have an unfair advantage because he gets to keep (for example) Adrain Peterson two years in a row simply because he lucked into his draft position.

After the 1st round, you really can't complain about the draft position so much as all players are in play, but that 1st round is more about where you get to draft.

From all the keeper leagues I've been involved in, there were no restrictions on which players you can keep. Pick your 2 players and your first 2 rounds have been picked. Once you submit your 2 names prior to the draft, there is no switching unless of injury. You don't have to keep any if you don't want to

[sulster]

Well what if we change the draft order. Here's an example. Let's say the top 3 guys who drafted last year, don't want to keep their guy, but the 4th guy does...the 4th guy would move up to 1st pick...so in the 2nd round he picks last. So anyone who wants to keep their guys moves to the top and drafts their guys...

Let's use me as an example....I drafted AP 2nd and I want him again and the guy who drafted Forte 1st doesn't want his. I would move to 1st and draft AP, then I would pick last in the 2nd round. But here is where it gets interesting, since we do it in basketball. The guy who picked 1st last year has the option of moving to the end or staying at 2nd. I know many had waiting that long between picks. Many would prefer to 2 great players, rather 1 elite.

[sulster]

But let me add, since I forgot to add this part which is important...all the guys who decided to keep their keeper move to the top before the guy who picked 1st last decides where in the draft he wants to be.