Connorbear Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 http://www.suntimes.com/sports/football/be...bside01.article Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Well, I know this doesn't have anything to do with Tillman, but I am still pissed that we didn't keep Berrian around. He was the closest thing to a no. 1 wide receiver we have had in a long while, and we let him walk to a division rival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Quick, while he's standing, somebody kick him right square in the nuts. This is two games this year that he has singlehandedly sucked the life outta this defense with his blunders. First the blown coverage and then the horsecollar in this game. Look, guys are going to get beat but he makes an artform of being toasted by average receivers and has been all year long. Bring on the rookies and let him join his buddy Vasher on the bench as the highest paid stiff CBs in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBearSox Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 ^^^ In regards to that... I have always found that Peanut gets no credit for any plays where he is outstanding... but always gets the blame for the secondary's problems....he's the only one in the group thats seems to not dog it....Payne is a close 2nd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 ^^^ In regards to that... I have always found that Peanut gets no credit for any plays where he is outstanding... but always gets the blame for the secondary's problems....he's the only one in the group thats seems to not dog it....Payne is a close 2nd Most NFL people will tell you that Tillman and Vasher are NOT great cover guys. Hell, right now, they aren't even decent so whatever YOU may have found in the past is exactly that, in the past. When we had great pressure, Tillman was better , then again, every CB in this league gets better with d line pressure. Right now and since klast year, Tillman and Vasher are overpaid and overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bears 88 Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 ^^^ In regards to that... I have always found that Peanut gets no credit for any plays where he is outstanding... but always gets the blame for the secondary's problems....he's the only one in the group thats seems to not dog it....Payne is a close 2nd This is Bears fans we're talking about here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Tillman makes his share of mistakes, but he's still one of the better corners in the league, and he always plays with some heart, which is a lot more then what some of our players could say. So quickly how everyone forgets about that one TD saving tackle Tillman had on AD when he was about to score on the 50+ yard run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Yes, it's true CBs get better when there is more pressure on the QB because they can stick closer to the shorter routes without worrying about double moves and deep routes. We DO NOT have that luxury. At times in the game last night Frerotte had zero pressure on him even though we blitzed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBearSox Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 This is Bears fans we're talking about here. And what are you? If you don't mind me asking...cause to me you're more like that old man on his porch shaking his fist at people... "This" is a Bears fan Tillman makes his share of mistakes, but he's still one of the better corners in the league, and he always plays with some heart, which is a lot more then what some of our players could say. So quickly how everyone forgets about that one TD saving tackle Tillman had on AD when he was about to score on the 50+ yard run. This is exactly what I am talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Tillman makes his share of mistakes, but he's still one of the better corners in the league, and he always plays with some heart, which is a lot more then what some of our players could say. So quickly how everyone forgets about that one TD saving tackle Tillman had on AD when he was about to score on the 50+ yard run. He is not one of the better corners in the league. As Madden said, he is one of the better "strippers" in the league, and that is about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balta1701-A Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 I've always believed Tillman does an excellent job against the bigger, more physically gifted receivers. I think you match him up with Owens, Moss, guys like that...the really big receiver who is using his size or strength to his advantage, and Tillman does a solid job of shutting him down. Where Tillman is weaker is if you put him up against a guy who uses his speed more. I.e. Steve Smith, Bernard Berrian, etc., I always thought prior to this season Vasher was a better corner against them because he was simply faster than Peanut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 I've always believed Tillman does an excellent job against the bigger, more physically gifted receivers. I think you match him up with Owens, Moss, guys like that...the really big receiver who is using his size or strength to his advantage, and Tillman does a solid job of shutting him down. Where Tillman is weaker is if you put him up against a guy who uses his speed more. I.e. Steve Smith, Bernard Berrian, etc., I always thought prior to this season Vasher was a better corner against them because he was simply faster than Peanut. he doesn't "shut down" anybody. His strength is letting them catch the ball and then trying to make them fumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connorbear Posted December 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 he doesn't "shut down" anybody. His strength is letting them catch the ball and then trying to make them fumble. Tillman is an above average corner. He could be an all pro free safety (both Lucky Luciano and I agree on this). With 20 career interceptions and 12 forced fumbles after 5.5 yrs with the team, he will finish in the top 5 for the Bears if he plays out his contract. He has been outstanding at forcing turnovers which is what this scheme asks him to do. I think he would be even better as a safety IMHO. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 God, why do people constantly think it's a good idea to move Tillman to FS? Right now, he is one of the better corners in the league, likely top 15. Why would you want to sacrifice that for a FS? Does not make any sense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Tillman is an above average corner. He could be an all pro free safety (both Lucky Luciano and I agree on this). With 20 career interceptions and 12 forced fumbles after 5.5 yrs with the team, he will finish in the top 5 for the Bears if he plays out his contract. He has been outstanding at forcing turnovers which is what this scheme asks him to do. I think he would be even better as a safety IMHO. Peace He is good at forcing fumbles. I've said as much. But to pretend he is a top notch shut down corner is really pure fantasy. I agree, move him to safety, just as long as wouldn't have to cover anybody by himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 God, why do people constantly think it's a good idea to move Tillman to FS? Right now, he is one of the better corners in the league, likely top 15. Why would you want to sacrifice that for a FS? Does not make any sense at all. Cause maybe we could put someone at CB who could actually prevent people from catching the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connorbear Posted December 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 He is good at forcing fumbles. I've said as much. But to pretend he is a top notch shut down corner is really pure fantasy. I agree, move him to safety, just as long as wouldn't have to cover anybody by himself. Never said he was a top notch shut down corner. I said he was an above average corner. I live in the real world - no fantasy here. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Cause maybe we could put someone at CB who could actually prevent people from catching the ball. What the hell are you talking about? How short people's memories are. This is a useless arguement because people like you dwell on mistakes and have them over shadow the good a player does. Fact is that every player makes mistakes. Besides the one play with Berrian when Tillman was in zone and appearantly had to account for two guys, name one blown coverage by Tillman yesterday. (This isn't counting the horse collar penalty) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 What the hell are you talking about? How short people's memories are. This is a useless arguement because people like you dwell on mistakes and have them over shadow the good a player does. Fact is that every player makes mistakes. Besides the one play with Berrian when Tillman was in zone and appearantly had to account for two guys, name one blown coverage by Tillman yesterday. (This isn't counting the horse collar penalty) lol I guess the difference is what we call coverage. Being 5 ft away from people, letting them catch the ball, and then trying to strip it out is not coverage in my book. It is what it is, trying to create turnovers. When he gets a couple of those in a game, it makes him look alot better than he is. Your right, it is a useless argument because people like you will elevate him to "top corner in the league" status based on his "stripping skills". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 lol I guess the difference is what we call coverage. Being 5 ft away from people, letting them catch the ball, and then trying to strip it out is not coverage in my book. It is what it is, trying to create turnovers. When he gets a couple of those in a game, it makes him look alot better than he is. Your right, it is a useless argument because people like you will elevate him to "top corner in the league" status based on his "stripping skills". Wasn't it Sapp who said that Tillman and Vasher were not known for their coverage skills? I don't know where these guys come up with top corner in lthe league nonsense but Tillman isn't anywhere close. Tillman and Vasher were Jerry Angelo projects who looked better because of the pressure we were getting in 06. Many people have a hard time realizing that. Kinda like referring to hester as the greatest return man in the game. Yeah, as long as you don't take what he's doing today into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connorbear Posted December 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Wasn't it Sapp who said that Tillman and Vasher were not known for their coverage skills? I don't know where these guys come up with top corner in lthe league nonsense but Tillman isn't anywhere close. Tillman and Vasher were Jerry Angelo projects who looked better because of the pressure we were getting in 06. Many people have a hard time realizing that. Kinda like referring to hester as the greatest return man in the game. Yeah, as long as you don't take what he's doing today into account. I think BearSox said he was a top 15 corner but he didn't say top corner in the league. I said he was an above average corner who could be an all pro free safety. Someone else said he was good at shutting down big receivers but had issues with speed receivers. I think we need to take a step back. Nut is a good football player. He plays his arse off for this team. He is playing with injuries to both shoulders. Hampton said last week that the int he made in St Louis was one of the best he has seen by a Bear player in yrs. Is he is all pro cornerback - no. Does he has deficiencies - yes. But I will take him over 80% of the other CBs in the league today. If I was starting a football team, I would want him on it. Of course, I would have him at FS. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBearSox Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 I agree with somewhat with Conner and somehwat with BearSox. Also with whoever said he is good against bigger WRs and not speed guys. I think as he gets older a move to FS with def benefit him. If we can get some younger guys in at the corners (Graham/???McBride?wtf happend from last year) and let go Vash I think a safty combo of Payne/Tillman would be very nice. People do easily forget BearSox...of course he makes some bonehead plays but even Champ does that sometimes. I am in no way saying he is as good as Bailey, but I am not so quick to write him off like some people. It's a funny situation, I know people that absolutley despise him and people that love him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Luciano Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Tillman is an above average corner. He could be an all pro free safety (both Lucky Luciano and I agree on this). With 20 career interceptions and 12 forced fumbles after 5.5 yrs with the team, he will finish in the top 5 for the Bears if he plays out his contract. He has been outstanding at forcing turnovers which is what this scheme asks him to do. I think he would be even better as a safety IMHO. Peace here is my two cents worth... i don't think tillman overall is an above average corner and here is why: it has been talked about by me and others for years that peanut can't cover the quick off the line wideouts or the speedsters. in this aspect he is below average as a corner. where i believe he is, or at least used to be, above average was covering the big players who came into the league at that time like moss. he was big enough and physical enough to do a very good job covering them. so this plays him out as average, at best, in regards to covering receivers at this time in the league. also, the league rules have changed even more hampering this type of physical corner play peanut was good at. i do believe as you do that at fs he would be an excellent addition. he has enough speed to play fs, he has size and the physical aspects to excel in this position. he also, in my opinion, is good enough to play tight and actually cover receivers/te's in a free safety role in contrary to what az stated. note: if i am not mistaken (and i could be) he was actually a safety in college who played corner in his final year due to injury of a team mate. and of course we knew better so we continued to force square pegs into round holes and make him a corner. finally... peanut is one of my favorite players. like m. brown i see him giving his ALL on game day and will play through injury. i don't see him taking plays off or dogging it. he is a tough player who really takes pride in what he does even if his physical skills can't match up to the job he is asked to do. i feel this organization has done him a great disservice by not having the foresight or brains to see his true calling at safety or even playing him in a swing cb/free safety position. one last item, anyone who has a tattoo of mr. peanut on his arm can't be all bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 I think everyone needs to consider our scheme here. I have heard the question or comment about whether Tillman is a good cover corner or not. Frankly, I think that question is a bit moot. In our scheme, you do not need cover corners. In my mind, a cover corner is one who plays man. In our scheme, our corners play zone. Whether we are in a cover 2, cover 1 or cover 4, the majority of the time, we are playing a zone coverage. Do we play man some? Sure, but IMHO, very rarely. In a zone scheme, you simply do not need a shut down or cover corner. In our scheme, your corner is expected to: play off the LOS (though I would argue not as much as our does), show solid instincts, break on the ball, make solid tackles and support the run. There are things Tillman has shown he can do in the past. Right now, he looks poor, but is playing w/ two hurt shoulders, which is effecting his game. I would argue that most of the times in the past Tillman was flat beat was when he was taken out of zone situations, and thus outside the sort of coverage he is better geared to play. In man, there is little question, IMHO, that Tillman is better against the bigger WRs than he is against speedy WRs. He simply doesn't have the speed to matchup w/ the burners, but has shown the ability to fight w/ the bigger WRs for the ball. He probably can't even do that right now though due to his shoulders. If we continue (after this year) to run primarily a zone coverage, then I think Tillman still has solid value at CB. If we were to move to a man coverage though, I think Tillman's value would drop a fair bit. In that event, I think we would nearly always have to roll extra safety help to his side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connorbear Posted December 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 If we continue (after this year) to run primarily a zone coverage, then I think Tillman still has solid value at CB. If we were to move to a man coverage though, I think Tillman's value would drop a fair bit. In that event, I think we would nearly always have to roll extra safety help to his side. He should be moved to FS. At the same time, someone needs to kick Vasher in the arse. He needs to earn the money he is being payed starting next yr. Vasher and Graham at starting corrner next yr with Bowman and McBride as the backups (draft a corner as well). Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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