2009 starting line??

[Wesson44]

Williams, Beunning , Kruetz,Omiyale,St.Clair

[nfoligno]

One, this OL would make me sick heading into next year. In fact, I think the only ones would would be more sick are: Jason, Orton and Forte.

 

Two, I really think Beunning is a favorite on this board, but not at Halas. Every time I hear our staff talk, Beunning is never brought up. I have read that he was brought in last year, and was expected to do something in '08, rather than what some posters have said, that we brought him here in '08 for '09. He didn't impress the staff, and right now, I just do not think he is a key part of the plans, much less factored as a starter. If no further upgrades, then I think Beekman would have the start.

 

Not thrilled w/ Omiyale as a starter. Nice depth, but starter? Neither Atlanta, nor Carolina viewed him as a starter. Further, while I keep reading about how he can play OG, when we he looked at there? Seems like both former teams viewed him as an OT.

 

St. Clair as our starting RT just does nothing for me. Upgrade over Tait? Maybe. But that isn't saying much.

 

What I am still hoping our OL looks like:

 

Williams - Duke - Kreutz - Omiyale - Oher/Smith. If we were to add Duke and Oher or Smith, I could far better accept Omiyale. This would not be a very experienced OL, but I think it would be talented and one that could develop together into something special.

 

Williams, Beunning , Kruetz,Omiyale,St.Clair

[ParkerBear7]

One, this OL would make me sick heading into next year. In fact, I think the only ones would would be more sick are: Jason, Orton and Forte.

 

Two, I really think Beunning is a favorite on this board, but not at Halas. Every time I hear our staff talk, Beunning is never brought up. I have read that he was brought in last year, and was expected to do something in '08, rather than what some posters have said, that we brought him here in '08 for '09. He didn't impress the staff, and right now, I just do not think he is a key part of the plans, much less factored as a starter. If no further upgrades, then I think Beekman would have the start.

 

Not thrilled w/ Omiyale as a starter. Nice depth, but starter? Neither Atlanta, nor Carolina viewed him as a starter. Further, while I keep reading about how he can play OG, when we he looked at there? Seems like both former teams viewed him as an OT.

 

St. Clair as our starting RT just does nothing for me. Upgrade over Tait? Maybe. But that isn't saying much.

 

What I am still hoping our OL looks like:

 

Williams - Duke - Kreutz - Omiyale - Oher/Smith. If we were to add Duke and Oher or Smith, I could far better accept Omiyale. This would not be a very experienced OL, but I think it would be talented and one that could develop together into something special.

 

NFO -- you are right and if this org thinks we can get by again by only sighning omiyale and st claire than we are screwed. The OL should be a non-issue this year if the JA would have done his due diligence the past 3-4 years by drafting the best OL prostect available in rounds 2-4 instead of reaching for athletic guys that noone has heard of from little obscure schools like Abilene Christian and Stanford. When a draft is deep at certain positions JA needs to realize that and draft quality players and stop stretching to fill a need. WR, OL, and LB are supposedly the deep positions in this draft and this should be where we make an effort to improve our team with grabbing WR and OL early.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

My dream:

Williams-Robinson-Beekman-Omiyale-Oher

 

What it will be:

Williams-Beekman-Kreutz-draft pick-Omiyale

[jason]

Williams, Beunning , Kruetz,Omiyale,St.Clair

 

[nfoligno]

To me, I think the problem is/was that Angelo had a certain philosophy, and took to long to realize circumstances had changed making his philosophy poor in today's market.

 

Angelo talked about it some last offseason. He said he felt OL took longer to develop than most other positions, and flat out said that was why he preferred adding veterans over drafting young talent. But then said things have changed. Taking it one step further...

 

I don't think his philosophy was awful. Until recently, OGs and even RTs simply were not very expensive. LTs were always expensive, but you could add OGs and RTs through FA w/o spending a fortune, and could often get players coming off their rookie deals, thus still young, but w/ develop skills. Angelo even talked about he had no problem allowing another team to develop a player for him, which he said w/ a smile. Meanwhile, you can draft some 2nd day OL w/ the thought of depth and long term development. While I am not saying I would follow this philosophy, I think there was a time it had merit. OGs and RTs were simply never appreciated positions on the OL. They were fairly low paid, and plentiful in FA.

 

But over the last several years, we have seen RTs and OGs getting contract previously reserved for LTs. Now, rare do you find quality young OL in FA. More often, the young OL is like Omiyale. A player who has not developed into a starter for prior team(s), but could still develop into one. Of you find OL who is on the wrong side of 30. May have a little left in the tank, but will see a decline soon, and once it begins, it is often quick. When there is a young and solid OL, regardless of where he plays on the OL, he is signing for considerable contracts. Take Jason Brown, who signed w/ St.L for 5yr/ $37m and $20m guaranteed.

 

Problem is, it took too long to figure that out, and to be honest, I am still not sure he totally has.

 

NFO -- you are right and if this org thinks we can get by again by only sighning omiyale and st claire than we are screwed. The OL should be a non-issue this year if the JA would have done his due diligence the past 3-4 years by drafting the best OL prostect available in rounds 2-4 instead of reaching for athletic guys that noone has heard of from little obscure schools like Abilene Christian and Stanford. When a draft is deep at certain positions JA needs to realize that and draft quality players and stop stretching to fill a need. WR, OL, and LB are supposedly the deep positions in this draft and this should be where we make an effort to improve our team with grabbing WR and OL early.

[nfoligno]

My dream was be:

 

Williams - Duke - Kreutz - Brandon Moore - Oher/Smith

 

What I think it will be:

 

Williams - Beekman - Kreutz - Omiyale - St. Clair

 

My dream:

Williams-Robinson-Beekman-Omiyale-Oher

 

What it will be:

Williams-Beekman-Kreutz-draft pick-Omiyale

[madlithuanian]

Sieve- In general, a sieve separates wanted/desired elements from unwanted material using a tool such as a mesh, net or other filtration or distillation methods, but it is also used for classification of powders by particle size, or for size measurement as an analytical technique. The word "sift" derives from this term. A strainer is a type of sieve typically associated with separating liquids from solids.

 

 

 

 

Williams, Beunning , Kruetz,Omiyale,St.Clair

[Lucky Luciano]

To me, I think the problem is/was that Angelo had a certain philosophy, and took to long to realize circumstances had changed making his philosophy poor in today's market.

 

Angelo talked about it some last offseason. He said he felt OL took longer to develop than most other positions, and flat out said that was why he preferred adding veterans over drafting young talent. But then said things have changed.

 

Angelo even talked about he had no problem allowing another team to develop a player for him, which he said w/ a smile. Meanwhile, you can draft some 2nd day OL w/ the thought of depth and long term development.

 

someone considered an idiot can talk about a lot of things and most of them are logically stupid or just plain bull @#$%.

 

our idiot gm is letting "another team develop a player for him"? like who angelo? which up-and-coming offensive lineman have you picked up in your entire career as a gm? was it dogins, the temporary backup for tucker, whose glorious career in chicago started at age 29 and ended at 30? great future move there. or was it steve edwards, the non-drafted practice squad player you picked up who had 2, average or less, seasons as our starting LG/RG between 2002 and 2006 to move on and play as a backup for another before he was out of the league? or a one legged, average at best, r. garza whom even you dismissed this offseason? the great 2 and gone aaron gibson? r. brown the 32 year old guard on the last leg of his career? the 32 year old f. miller on the last leg of his career? or was it john tait the 29 year old all-pro quality right tackle you brought in, after paying him the most money a right tackle had ever gotten, and had him play average on the left side the remainder of his career in chicago?

 

all of these genius free agent moves puts a smile on your face??

 

you can get by drafting 2nd day talent rather than 1st day prospects for long term development because the OL takes too long to develop? where are all of these developed 2nd day picks now angelo? anyone want to guess how many pro-bowl offensive linemen (besides kreutz who he had nothing to do with) we have had in chicago during angelo's time here? ONE, a 34 year old guard in 2006 - r. brown.

 

just maybe you should have bitten the bullet and drafted some FIRST day talent with REAL potential, like other teams with good offensive lines do, and plan that time lag into your general strategy you freakin cretin!!!!!!!!!

 

While I am not saying I would follow this philosophy, I think there was a time it had merit. OGs and RTs were simply never appreciated positions on the OL. They were fairly low paid, and plentiful in FA.

 

i have to disagree that this was ever a good philosophy. you build a good offensive line through the draft and not the other way around. if you draft them, you will have players that have the potential to play together for 8-10 years which does bring the ALL IMPORTANT continuity to your linemen who, more than any other position, need to play together as a unit to achieve this type of success. look at the good lines throughout history and see how many were drafted by the specific team.

 

you also get a bargain price on the good players when their contracts come due by averaging their cost over their years prior to free agency. if anyone should know this cost effectiveness it's a good gm. bringing in guys every other year and plugging them in does not create a solid unit for any length of time and costs more money in the long run.

 

you use free agency when your drafted players either are injured, you can't afford one because you have more than one excellent player coming into free agency, they don't turn out to be the player you hoped when drafted and the guy developing behind him isn't ready to start, or you find that ONE specific impact player that will put you over the top. you don't keep filling the bulk of your line with tweeners who you hope are even average and aging vets from another team.

 

finally... guard and safety are the easiest positions (right tackle is a close third) in the draft to fill yet angelo has failed miserably at all.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

My dream was be:

 

Williams - Duke - Kreutz - Brandon Moore - Oher/Smith

 

What I think it will be:

 

Williams - Beekman - Kreutz - Omiyale - St. Clair

Moore was re-signed with the Jets.

[nfoligno]

I said "was", though I also blew it and said, "be". My point was what my ideal OL would have been entering FA.

 

Now? Replace Moore w/ St. Clair.

 

Problem for me is, if we add St. Clair and Omiyale in FA, I see little chance of our adding Oher in the 1st, and nearly no chance we add Oher and Duke. So it is a bit of a catch 22. While the OL I would like to see would have St. Clair, at the same time I think adding him at this point would kill the draft for me.

 

Moore was re-signed with the Jets.

[ParkerBear7]

To me, I think the problem is/was that Angelo had a certain philosophy, and took to long to realize circumstances had changed making his philosophy poor in today's market.

 

Angelo talked about it some last offseason. He said he felt OL took longer to develop than most other positions, and flat out said that was why he preferred adding veterans over drafting young talent. But then said things have changed. Taking it one step further...

 

I don't think his philosophy was awful. Until recently, OGs and even RTs simply were not very expensive. LTs were always expensive, but you could add OGs and RTs through FA w/o spending a fortune, and could often get players coming off their rookie deals, thus still young, but w/ develop skills. Angelo even talked about he had no problem allowing another team to develop a player for him, which he said w/ a smile. Meanwhile, you can draft some 2nd day OL w/ the thought of depth and long term development. While I am not saying I would follow this philosophy, I think there was a time it had merit. OGs and RTs were simply never appreciated positions on the OL. They were fairly low paid, and plentiful in FA.

 

But over the last several years, we have seen RTs and OGs getting contract previously reserved for LTs. Now, rare do you find quality young OL in FA. More often, the young OL is like Omiyale. A player who has not developed into a starter for prior team(s), but could still develop into one. Of you find OL who is on the wrong side of 30. May have a little left in the tank, but will see a decline soon, and once it begins, it is often quick. When there is a young and solid OL, regardless of where he plays on the OL, he is signing for considerable contracts. Take Jason Brown, who signed w/ St.L for 5yr/ $37m and $20m guaranteed.

 

Problem is, it took too long to figure that out, and to be honest, I am still not sure he totally has.

 

 

NFO -- good point and does make sense and I would agree and would say that io would personally subscribe to that theory but JA stopped adding talent via FA in the past few years and also failed to add solid prospects in the draft beside beekman in recent years.

[nfoligno]

But I would argue that was because he felt the players he already added in FA could continue to play. He believed Tait could play RT. While it didn't work out, from what I read, there were greater expectations Beunning could play last year. They were relying on their previous FA addition of Garza to play at a higher level than he did. Heck, when we faced issues on the OL, what did we do? We added Fred Miller.

 

We may not have continued to add FA OL, but I would argue (a) we continued to rely on previously added veterans and ( OL is simply not an area Angelo seems to place as high of a level of value as in other positions.

 

To me, that is a another key reason I believe we continue to pass on OL in the draft. We so often hear Angelo say that he believed he took the best player available in the draft. I think that is true, at least in his mind. But I also believe he placed a lower value on OL, and thus when (before the draft ever begins) we create our draft board, we grade OL lower than other positions. Angelo values a fringe pass rushing DE no one has heard of higher than OL many view as a potential starter. Thus, when we pass on the OL for that DL or DB, Angelo honestly says we took the best player available because on our board, that player may have been. But my point is that, in creating our board, we simply do not place as high of a grade on OL, and that is why we fail to draft many OL. If Angelo placed a higher value on OL, they would rank higher on our board/charts, but instead he values so many other positions at such a higher level, that we never find ourselves in a position where OL is the best available talent on the board.

 

Hell, I would argue that even when we drafted Columbo and Williams, they were likley well down our board in terms of best available, but we reached in those years for need.

 

NFO -- good point and does make sense and I would agree and would say that io would personally subscribe to that theory but JA stopped adding talent via FA in the past few years and also failed to add solid prospects in the draft beside beekman in recent years.

[nfoligno]

One, while we have failed to add pro bowl FA OL, I think Angelo believes we have added solid players. Tait has been a starter for years. Fred Miller was solid for a year. Brown for several years. Garza has been, in Angelo's mind, solid. St. Clair has been a big part of our OL, at RT, LT and OG. So I think that in Angelo's mind, while he may not have added pro bowlers, he has added solild players. Problem is, even when he adds an OL who "may" be considered solid, it is very short lived.

 

Two. I NEVER said it was a good philosophy. I said I at least understand the logic. That does NOT mean I agree w/ it, only that I understand it. If you go back, I think you will find that few on this board more than I (and Jason) have screamed to draft OL more. I have been screaming to use our top pick on OL for years. Heck, I have even talked about using entire drafts for OL.

 

Three. Agree that OG, RT and S are usually easier positions to find in the draft. Here is why I personally believe we have failed in these areas.

 

S - I think this goes to philosophy. Angelo and Lovie believe the two safety positions are interchangable, and thus they continually draft SS' w/ the belief they can also play FS. They can't. On paper, maybe they say the two positions are interchangable, but in reality, that safety is a more rare find. Most safeties can excel at one or the other, but not both. As they have tried to find that ideal SS/FS hybrid, the margin for error is less, and thus why we struggle to find a FS that can actually cover.

 

OG/RT - I talk about this in another thread. IMHO, Angelo simply does not place as high of a level of value on OL as many others due. He talks about drafting the best available, but that is according to the pre-draft boards our staff create. When we create our board, I do not believe we grade OL as high as many others, and thus OL is graded out lower. So on draft day, when it is our turn to draft, OL is simply not the best available talent. Many other teams might have an OL player as the best available, but because we do not value/grade them as high, they are always lower on our board. Thus why we draft pass rushing specialists no one has ever heard of over OL. On our board, that DE was graded higher.

 

someone considered an idiot can talk about a lot of things and most of them are logically stupid or just plain bull @#$%.

 

our idiot gm is letting "another team develop a player for him"? like who angelo? which up-and-coming offensive lineman have you picked up in your entire career as a gm? was it dogins, the temporary backup for tucker, whose glorious career in chicago started at age 29 and ended at 30? great future move there. or was it steve edwards, the non-drafted practice squad player you picked up who had 2, average or less, seasons as our starting LG/RG between 2002 and 2006 to move on and play as a backup for another before he was out of the league? or a one legged, average at best, r. garza whom even you dismissed this offseason? the great 2 and gone aaron gibson? r. brown the 32 year old guard on the last leg of his career? the 32 year old f. miller on the last leg of his career? or was it john tait the 29 year old all-pro quality right tackle you brought in, after paying him the most money a right tackle had ever gotten, and had him play average on the left side the remainder of his career in chicago?

 

all of these genius free agent moves puts a smile on your face??

 

you can get by drafting 2nd day talent rather than 1st day prospects for long term development because the OL takes too long to develop? where are all of these developed 2nd day picks now angelo? anyone want to guess how many pro-bowl offensive linemen (besides kreutz who he had nothing to do with) we have had in chicago during angelo's time here? ONE, a 34 year old guard in 2006 - r. brown.

 

just maybe you should have bitten the bullet and drafted some FIRST day talent with REAL potential, like other teams with good offensive lines do, and plan that time lag into your general strategy you freakin cretin!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

i have to disagree that this was ever a good philosophy. you build a good offensive line through the draft and not the other way around. if you draft them, you will have players that have the potential to play together for 8-10 years which does bring the ALL IMPORTANT continuity to your linemen who, more than any other position, need to play together as a unit to achieve this type of success. look at the good lines throughout history and see how many were drafted by the specific team.

 

you also get a bargain price on the good players when their contracts come due by averaging their cost over their years prior to free agency. if anyone should know this cost effectiveness it's a good gm. bringing in guys every other year and plugging them in does not create a solid unit for any length of time and costs more money in the long run.

 

you use free agency when your drafted players either are injured, you can't afford one because you have more than one excellent player coming into free agency, they don't turn out to be the player you hoped when drafted and the guy developing behind him isn't ready to start, or you find that ONE specific impact player that will put you over the top. you don't keep filling the bulk of your line with tweeners who you hope are even average and aging vets from another team.

 

finally... guard and safety are the easiest positions (right tackle is a close third) in the draft to fill yet angelo has failed miserably at all.

[Lucky Luciano]

One, while we have failed to add pro bowl FA OL, I think Angelo believes we have added solid players. Tait has been a starter for years. Fred Miller was solid for a year. Brown for several years. Garza has been, in Angelo's mind, solid. St. Clair has been a big part of our OL, at RT, LT and OG. So I think that in Angelo's mind, while he may not have added pro bowlers, he has added solild players. Problem is, even when he adds an OL who "may" be considered solid, it is very short lived.

 

this is one of the big problems with angie. his drafts are anemic and he fills the holes he created himself with 2nd and 3rd tier FA's that are bargain basement cheap, temporary, stop gap players. this relates to an unstable average offensive line at best that needs young top tier talent infused to bring any semblance of long term stability. the crux is he never drafts these replacements to groom into starting jobs. for any GM, whether he is more defense oriented or not, to not understand this concept is inexcusable.

 

even when angie made a big FA splash, to get even with the chiefs franchise, he still screwed it up. when tait was brought in for a huge contract and was forced into playing on the left side out of position, a red flag should have been raised to draft with a first day priority a LOT as the future starter and move tait back into his all-pro position. as it turns out we highly overpaid tait to play out his career in chicago on the wrong side at a mediocre level!

 

the same can be said of his qb merry-go-round. forget the poor drafting, he even had the chance to bring in 2 pro-bowl quality qb's, still in their prime, at minimal cost to the franchise and failed to do so. instead he goes the cheap FA backup for players such as the griese, stewart, and hutchinson type players. it's mind boggling.

 

S - I think this goes to philosophy. Angelo and Lovie believe the two safety positions are interchangable, and thus they continually draft SS' w/ the belief they can also play FS. They can't. On paper, maybe they say the two positions are interchangable, but in reality, that safety is a more rare find. Most safeties can excel at one or the other, but not both. As they have tried to find that ideal SS/FS hybrid, the margin for error is less, and thus why we struggle to find a FS that can actually cover.

 

OG/RT - I talk about this in another thread. IMHO, Angelo simply does not place as high of a level of value on OL as many others due. He talks about drafting the best available, but that is according to the pre-draft boards our staff create. When we create our board, I do not believe we grade OL as high as many others, and thus OL is graded out lower. So on draft day, when it is our turn to draft, OL is simply not the best available talent. Many other teams might have an OL player as the best available, but because we do not value/grade them as high, they are always lower on our board. Thus why we draft pass rushing specialists no one has ever heard of over OL. On our board, that DE was graded higher.

 

1. drafting as many safeties as he has, we still don't have a single sure thing starter even AT strong safety (let alone FS). it has been complete failure on his part for 7 years. the only quality safeties in chicago during his tenure he never even drafted, m. brown and t. parrish, and in fact let one go in free agency his first year.

 

2. if what you say is even remotely true then he ranks as one of the worst gm's in the entire nfl and should still be employed as a scout. not as a GM in control of our franchise.

[nfoligno]

This is one of the big problems with angie. his drafts are anemic and he fills the holes he created himself with 2nd and 3rd tier FA's that are bargain basement cheap, temporary, stop gap players. this relates to an unstable average offensive line at best that needs young top tier talent infused to bring any semblance of long term stability. the crux is he never drafts these replacements to groom into starting jobs. for any GM, whether he is more defense oriented or not, to not understand this concept is inexcusable.

 

Hope you are not looking for an argument. Angelo looks to average veterans, which provide short to results, but are never more than bandaids. That might be "okay" IF he were following this up w/ solid drafted prospects who develop and are capable of taking over when the bandaid peels off, but when you follow up the bandaid pickups w/ 6th and 7th round draft picks, the results should be easily predicted.

 

even when angie made a big FA splash, to get even with the chiefs franchise, he still screwed it up. when tait was brought in for a huge contract and was forced into playing on the left side out of position, a red flag should have been raised to draft with a first day priority a LOT as the future starter and move tait back into his all-pro position. as it turns out we highly overpaid tait to play out his career in chicago on the wrong side at a mediocre level!

 

For the record, I personally believe the intention all along was for Tait to move to LT. That is my opinion. Regardless, you again are going to get no argument for me we should have far more focused on the OL in the early part of the draft. For year, Jason and I have screamed for an infusion of talent on the OL, while most on the board talked about how good the spare, older veterans were.

 

the same can be said of his qb merry-go-round. forget the poor drafting, he even had the chance to bring in 2 pro-bowl quality qb's, still in their prime, at minimal cost to the franchise and failed to do so. instead he goes the cheap FA backup for players such as the griese, stewart, and hutchinson type players. it's mind boggling.

 

I think this simply had to do w/ blind faith in the QB he drafted. How much does it say that he didn't even want to add a veteran who could/would compete w/ Rex.

 

1. drafting as many safeties as he has, we still don't have a single sure thing starter even AT strong safety (let alone FS). it has been complete failure on his part for 7 years. the only quality safeties in chicago during his tenure he never even drafted, m. brown and t. parrish, and in fact let one go in free agency his first year.

 

Again, you are not going to get an argument from me. Like the OL, I have always felt S was simply a position he never placed a high value on. He let Parrish go, and replaced him w/ Mr. Irrelevant. This is an area Angelo has tried to fill w/ quantity over quality. Whether in the draft or FA, I simply have never felt Angelo ever truly valued the safety position, and all the late 2nd day picks seem to offer evidence of such.

 

2. if what you say is even remotely true then he ranks as one of the worst gm's in the entire nfl and should still be employed as a scout. not as a GM in control of our franchise.