Forte vs Angelo

[madlithuanian]

ouch.

 

He was probably right about 1...but a 75% failure rate ain't so good.

 

For those who have faith in JA when it comes to running backs:

 

1 A-Train is not a special back.

 

2 Drafted Cedric Benson

 

3 Traded Thomas Jones in favor of Benson.

 

4 Leaving a player who has accounted for at least 35% of your offense over the past 3 years dangling in the wind as far as his contract extension is concerned.

 

His evaluation of RBs has paralleled his o-line evaluations. We all know his current thoughts on that subject.

 

[Connorbear]

For those who have faith in JA when it comes to running backs:

 

1 A-Train is not a special back.

 

2 Drafted Cedric Benson

 

3 Traded Thomas Jones in favor of Benson.

 

4 Leaving a player who has accounted for at least 35% of your offense over the past 3 years dangling in the wind as far as his contract extension is concerned.

 

His evaluation of RBs has paralleled his o-line evaluations. We all know his current thoughts on that subject.

He also drafted Forte but I guess you don't want to give him credit for that. They offered Forte an extension that was based on the fact he is still under contract. They will obviously offer him a different contract if he becomes a FA.

 

Everyone just needs to relax.

 

Peace

[BearsFan1974]

He also drafted Forte but I guess you don't want to give him credit for that. They offered Forte an extension that was based on the fact he is still under contract. They will obviously offer him a different contract if he becomes a FA.

 

Everyone just needs to relax.

 

Peace

 

With all do respect Connor, I have absolutely NO FAITH in this front office from JA to Ted to anybody with the McCaskey name. I'm hoping they'll get the deal done, but you know as well as everybody else they have let us down in the past and present. History repeats itself. I'm just saying.

[Connorbear]

With all do respect Connor, I have absolutely NO FAITH in this front office from JA to Ted to anybody with the McCaskey name. I'm hoping they'll get the deal done, but you know as well as everybody else they have let us down in the past and present. History repeats itself. I'm just saying.

Your choice. What player have the Bears drafted and developed that they have not signed that we wanted them to keep? The only one I can think of is Berrian and he was completely over-paid by the Queens. Please let me know who else they have let get away.

 

They screw up a lot of things but they have done a great job retaining their talent IMHO.

 

Peace

 

[Daventry]

Fair is simply subjective.

 

You get paid what you agree to get paid. We all do. You either accept terms or don't. On either side of the fence. Sometimes, overpayment is obvious. Sometimes it's not. I think, in Forte's case, any overpayment would simply be attributed to that he was grossly underpaid for the past few years. To me, it all evens out. He's integral to what the team is. He may have more or less value under certain coordinators or game plans...but he's an extremely solid contributor no matter how you slice up his "specialness".

 

There simply seems to be more vocal discontentment in recent years than in prior ones.

 

I hope. But I worry.

 

I like Mr. Forte. He seems like a class guy that puts out a ton of effort and seems to really care. I like guys like that. I hope his dealing with JA don't sour him to the club and wishes to go elsewhere where franchises are better run like New England. I could see Forte making NE a virtual unbeatable powerhouse under Bilichick. They'd have the versatile RB they've lacked for a while.

 

Thankfully we have him now. And I think he will chew up yards against the Fudgies on Sunday. F the Packers.

 

 

Exactly, what MadLith said....too true.

[Guest TerraTor]

Your choice. What player have the Bears drafted and developed that they have not signed that we wanted them to keep? The only one I can think of is Berrian and he was completely over-paid by the Queens. Please let me know who else they have let get away.

 

They screw up a lot of things but they have done a great job retaining their talent IMHO.

 

Peace

 

 

They offered Berrian some good coin. Then of course he bashed the team saying their QBs in Minny were more stable... ha!

[BearsFan1974]

Your choice. What player have the Bears drafted and developed that they have not signed that we wanted them to keep? The only one I can think of is Berrian and he was completely over-paid by the Queens. Please let me know who else they have let get away.

 

They screw up a lot of things but they have done a great job retaining their talent IMHO.

 

Peace

 

On the flip side, how many more have they drafted whose performance was a complete suckfest. I just don't want Forte hitting the market, plain and simple.

[madlithuanian]

Holdman, Colvin, Alex Brown, Mike Brown, Orton, Chris Harris (although now back), Columbo, Olsen, Kreutz, Tony Parish...

 

Yes, some were past their prime, but they were ours and were let go, and we probably should have kept them longer.

 

But the list simply isn't as short as you wrote...

 

Your choice. What player have the Bears drafted and developed that they have not signed that we wanted them to keep? The only one I can think of is Berrian and he was completely over-paid by the Queens. Please let me know who else they have let get away.

 

They screw up a lot of things but they have done a great job retaining their talent IMHO.

 

Peace

 

[Connorbear]

Holdman, Colvin, Alex Brown, Mike Brown, Orton, Chris Harris (although now back), Columbo, Olsen, Kreutz, Tony Parish...

 

Yes, some were past their prime, but they were ours and were let go, and we probably should have kept them longer.

 

But the list simply isn't as short as you wrote...

Alex Brown was let go after we signed Peppers (we originally signed him to an extension).

Mike Brown was let go after multiple injuries (we originally signed him to an extension).

Harris was traded.

Columbo was injured and we had carried him for a year and a half.

Orton was traded for Cutler.

Olsen was traded.

Kruetz was offered a contract larger than the one he signed.

Holdman was part of that tag f/u Angelo's first year (10 years ago).

Bears tried to sign Colvin but he signed with the Patriots for more. He was done a few years later.

No idea on Parrish.

 

Peace

 

 

 

 

[balta1701-A]

4 Leaving a player who has accounted for at least 35% of your offense over the past 3 years dangling in the wind as far as his contract extension is concerned

Again...how is "Offering him a fair market extension 1 year before he is eligible for free agency/franchise tagging" = "leaving him dangling in the wind"?

 

He was offered a solid, reasonable, fair market deal for a guy 1 year away from FA. I don't know how clear I can make this.

[madlithuanian]

You made your post sound like only one move under JA's regime was off... My list says that there were more.

 

 

Alex Brown was let go after we signed Peppers (we originally signed him to an extension).

Mike Brown was let go after multiple injuries (we originally signed him to an extension).

Harris was traded.

Columbo was injured and we had carried him for a year and a half.

Orton was traded for Cutler.

Olsen was traded.

Kruetz was offered a contract larger than the one he signed.

Holdman was part of that tag f/u Angelo's first year (10 years ago).

Bears tried to sign Colvin but he signed with the Patriots for more. He was done a few years later.

No idea on Parrish.

 

Peace

 

[nfoligno]

Perception.

 

Totally understand how you are looking at this. However, you can look at it from another angle. I'm an Angelo hater, but....

 

A-Train - He wasn't special. He was a good RB, in the right system, with a pretty good OL. As the OL slipped, so did he. What happened to him after Chicago?

 

Benson - Benson is a head case. Not sure anyone could even argue this point. However, from a talent evaluation point of view, he's been a pretty solid NFL RB. Just not with us. First year after leaving Chicago he has 750 yards in 12 games, followed by 1,250 and 1,100. And lets not pretend Cincy has either a good OL or offense in general. Angelo gave the team a RB who has proven he can play in the NFL, but our coaching staff was incapable of getting as much out of him as another team.

 

Thomas Jones - Who brought Jones to the team? Yes, knock for sending him away, but again, in terms of bringing in talent, he did he part.

 

Forte - we have not been able to re-sign him, but (a) you have to give credit to Angelo for drafting Forte, ( I still question whether Forte is worth the coin he wants and © we have done pretty well in the past re-signing players. Some like Briggs, place an inflated value on their worth, but later find few other takers.

 

IMHO, RB is actually one of the few areas Angelo has a pretty good record. Even players like Bell and some others who were pure depth chart proved productive. I think the fault lies more in our coaching staff.

 

Angelo's and the OL is an entirely different story.

 

 

For those who have faith in JA when it comes to running backs:

 

1 A-Train is not a special back.

 

2 Drafted Cedric Benson

 

3 Traded Thomas Jones in favor of Benson.

 

4 Leaving a player who has accounted for at least 35% of your offense over the past 3 years dangling in the wind as far as his contract extension is concerned.

 

His evaluation of RBs has paralleled his o-line evaluations. We all know his current thoughts on that subject.

 

[madlithuanian]

re - Beson - Who was respnsible for putting a coaching staff in order? JA!

 

re- Jones - Knowing when to retain a guy is almost as important as bringing him in.

 

Whatever handful of positives the guy has cannot be outweighed by the freighter-load of negatives.

 

Perception.

 

Totally understand how you are looking at this. However, you can look at it from another angle. I'm an Angelo hater, but....

 

A-Train - He wasn't special. He was a good RB, in the right system, with a pretty good OL. As the OL slipped, so did he. What happened to him after Chicago?

 

Benson - Benson is a head case. Not sure anyone could even argue this point. However, from a talent evaluation point of view, he's been a pretty solid NFL RB. Just not with us. First year after leaving Chicago he has 750 yards in 12 games, followed by 1,250 and 1,100. And lets not pretend Cincy has either a good OL or offense in general. Angelo gave the team a RB who has proven he can play in the NFL, but our coaching staff was incapable of getting as much out of him as another team.

 

Thomas Jones - Who brought Jones to the team? Yes, knock for sending him away, but again, in terms of bringing in talent, he did he part.

 

Forte - we have not been able to re-sign him, but (a) you have to give credit to Angelo for drafting Forte, ( I still question whether Forte is worth the coin he wants and © we have done pretty well in the past re-signing players. Some like Briggs, place an inflated value on their worth, but later find few other takers.

 

IMHO, RB is actually one of the few areas Angelo has a pretty good record. Even players like Bell and some others who were pure depth chart proved productive. I think the fault lies more in our coaching staff.

 

Angelo's and the OL is an entirely different story.

 

[nfoligno]

re - Beson - Who was respnsible for putting a coaching staff in order? JA!

 

Beside the point when the discussion was simply about evaluating RBs.

 

re- Jones - Knowing when to retain a guy is almost as important as bringing him in.

 

Hindsight makes it near impossible to argue, and more than a few even then didn't like the move, but I always understood it. TJ didn't excel prior to our drafting Benson. We had a shot at a player who was considered an elite RB prospect, and took him. There were many issues in the locker room, and it was obvious we could not keep both backs. Benson was the player we invested in. Not often in this situation would you see a team trade a top 5 pick after a year or two in favor of a journeymen RB. So while I realize how it looks in hindsight, I think there was understandable logic then.

 

Whatever handful of positives the guy has cannot be outweighed by the freighter-load of negatives.

 

Come on Mad. You know I am on the leadership board of the Fire Angelo club, and have been since, well, forever. But if you have to give credit where it's due, and Angelo has done pretty well in terms of evaluating/ acquiring RB talent.

[madlithuanian]

OK, fine good at RB... There are hits, but tons more misses... And tons more bad managment issues.

 

nfo, don't defend JA to brush up on your debate skills! Give into the hate...come to the dark side!

 

 

re - Beson - Who was respnsible for putting a coaching staff in order? JA!

 

Beside the point when the discussion was simply about evaluating RBs.

 

re- Jones - Knowing when to retain a guy is almost as important as bringing him in.

 

Hindsight makes it near impossible to argue, and more than a few even then didn't like the move, but I always understood it. TJ didn't excel prior to our drafting Benson. We had a shot at a player who was considered an elite RB prospect, and took him. There were many issues in the locker room, and it was obvious we could not keep both backs. Benson was the player we invested in. Not often in this situation would you see a team trade a top 5 pick after a year or two in favor of a journeymen RB. So while I realize how it looks in hindsight, I think there was understandable logic then.

 

Whatever handful of positives the guy has cannot be outweighed by the freighter-load of negatives.

 

Come on Mad. You know I am on the leadership board of the Fire Angelo club, and have been since, well, forever. But if you have to give credit where it's due, and Angelo has done pretty well in terms of evaluating/ acquiring RB talent.

 

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Why would Forte even want to sign here? The Bears have one guy around him who can play (Cutler) and he never touches the ball anyway. Please, don't say "money" because he can get that on 31 other teams.

 

Why would us fans even want him to stick? The Bears continue to show that their offense for the last however-many years is horsesh**. Want to know why? Their playcalling is so damn predictable and they don't use their weapons to their advantage. If they're only going to give Forte 35 carries every 3 games, they might as well use the money elsewhere.

 

Of course I'm being sarcastic, but really, why would he want to stick with this organization? Or, why should the Bears use $7-8m per on a guy who won't be much of a factor AT HIS NATURAL POSITION?

 

And for the record, for every Michael Haynes, there's a Lance Briggs. The Bears seemingly draft like s***, but all you have to do is go back and look at past Patriots and Steelers draft and realize that they miss on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders as well.

[nfoligno]

You've got to be kidding. I was bashing Angelo when most everyone else was still just happy to have a GM. Even then I argued Hatley was better, and did more without the newly opened purse strings Angelo has had access too.

 

Angelo is a total freaking joke. I can't stand him. I will give him credit that he has had hits at RB. To argue otherwise, IMHO, would make me look too biased and filled with hate to even admit when something works. Can't do it. So I'll give him credit on the one or two areas he has done well, but that doesn't mean I like him. He is crab and A#1 in my "get rid of" wish list which runs deep.

 

OK, fine good at RB... There are hits, but tons more misses... And tons more bad managment issues.

 

nfo, don't defend JA to brush up on your debate skills! Give into the hate...come to the dark side!

 

 

[nfoligno]

One. I'd argue Forte would want to stick because (a) as bad as the system is, most would agree he is a good fit. Sorry, but there are many systems he simply is a poor fit. As much love as he gets, he isn't a power runner. In a system that utilizes him as a receiver, he excels, but many systems want their RBs to run the ball, and in this regard, I think he is closer than not to average. Sorry, but there are RBs out there that make their OLs look good. Forte is a RB that needs a good OL to look good. ( Money. Sorry again, but I think his market value is simply not going to be as great as he, and some here, believe. How many thought teams would throw the farm at Briggs, only to see Briggs tuck tail and return to the team he said he would never again play for. That's because as good as he is, he over-estimated his market value.

 

Two. Sure, every team out there has hits and misses, but our hits have simply been too few. Further, too few of our hits have been pro bowl caliber players. We talk about this okay player or that okay player, but how many studs has Angelo drafted? You get away with misses with hits, but when you have a lot of misses, you better have bigger hits, and Angelo's studs are in the minority.

 

DL - For all the DL he drafted, who would you call a stud? Harris was the closest, and that was short lived.

 

LB - Briggs, then......

 

DB - Tillman, who is very good but not a stud. After him, anyone? And there have been many many DBs drafted.

 

OL - Not one stud. Heck, not even one I would say is a solid starter.

 

RB - Several - one area I have given him credit for evaluation.

 

QB - Um....

 

WR - A few nice players, but would you go further.

 

TE - Um, nope again.

 

Where are the studs? In so many years of drafting, should we expect a few more pro bowl quality players?

 

Why would Forte even want to sign here? The Bears have one guy around him who can play (Cutler) and he never touches the ball anyway. Please, don't say "money" because he can get that on 31 other teams.

 

Why would us fans even want him to stick? The Bears continue to show that their offense for the last however-many years is horsesh**. Want to know why? Their playcalling is so damn predictable and they don't use their weapons to their advantage. If they're only going to give Forte 35 carries every 3 games, they might as well use the money elsewhere.

 

Of course I'm being sarcastic, but really, why would he want to stick with this organization? Or, why should the Bears use $7-8m per on a guy who won't be much of a factor AT HIS NATURAL POSITION?

 

And for the record, for every Michael Haynes, there's a Lance Briggs. The Bears seemingly draft like s***, but all you have to do is go back and look at past Patriots and Steelers draft and realize that they miss on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders as well.

 

[madlithuanian]

I stand corrected! Sorry...I thought by the gyst of your posts on this that you were defending him. Even if only for RB's!

 

I know you have been hard on him, that's why I was so surprised by your pro bono defense of him on RB's!

 

Now you peaked my interest! Who's on the list (besides getting me off this board!)?

 

 

 

You've got to be kidding. I was bashing Angelo when most everyone else was still just happy to have a GM. Even then I argued Hatley was better, and did more without the newly opened purse strings Angelo has had access too.

 

Angelo is a total freaking joke. I can't stand him. I will give him credit that he has had hits at RB. To argue otherwise, IMHO, would make me look too biased and filled with hate to even admit when something works. Can't do it. So I'll give him credit on the one or two areas he has done well, but that doesn't mean I like him. He is crab and A#1 in my "get rid of" wish list which runs deep.

 

[nfoligno]

LOL. My list? Every coach on our team except Toub. I'd also clean house with our college scouts. Our NFL scouts seem to do okay, but just take a look at our drafts. Angelo takes the fall, but I think our scouts have to be factored.

 

I don't have the issue with Phillips as some do. His job is the business side, and I don't think it can be argued he has done well in that regard. We have more money, and spend more, than ever before, and that is largely thanks to him. What we need is a total house cleaning on the football side, GM and all below. Again, I like toub and would keep him, but that's about it.

 

I stand corrected! Sorry...I thought by the gyst of your posts on this that you were defending him. Even if only for RB's!

 

I know you have been hard on him, that's why I was so surprised by your pro bono defense of him on RB's!

 

Now you peaked my interest! Who's on the list (besides getting me off this board!)?

 

[madlithuanian]

I get it now! JA told Martz to stop utilizing Forte well, so that when nogtiations come up, they can low ball him! If only...

 

One. I'd argue Forte would want to stick because (a) as bad as the system is, most would agree he is a good fit. Sorry, but there are many systems he simply is a poor fit. As much love as he gets, he isn't a power runner. In a system that utilizes him as a receiver, he excels, but many systems want their RBs to run the ball, and in this regard, I think he is closer than not to average. Sorry, but there are RBs out there that make their OLs look good. Forte is a RB that needs a good OL to look good. ( Money. Sorry again, but I think his market value is simply not going to be as great as he, and some here, believe. How many thought teams would throw the farm at Briggs, only to see Briggs tuck tail and return to the team he said he would never again play for. That's because as good as he is, he over-estimated his market value.

 

Two. Sure, every team out there has hits and misses, but our hits have simply been too few. Further, too few of our hits have been pro bowl caliber players. We talk about this okay player or that okay player, but how many studs has Angelo drafted? You get away with misses with hits, but when you have a lot of misses, you better have bigger hits, and Angelo's studs are in the minority.

 

DL - For all the DL he drafted, who would you call a stud? Harris was the closest, and that was short lived.

 

LB - Briggs, then......

 

DB - Tillman, who is very good but not a stud. After him, anyone? And there have been many many DBs drafted.

 

OL - Not one stud. Heck, not even one I would say is a solid starter.

 

RB - Several - one area I have given him credit for evaluation.

 

QB - Um....

 

WR - A few nice players, but would you go further.

 

TE - Um, nope again.

 

Where are the studs? In so many years of drafting, should we expect a few more pro bowl quality players?

 

[madlithuanian]

JA drafted Tillman? Why to I recall that as Hatley...or his guy in place as JA came into power.

 

One. I'd argue Forte would want to stick because (a) as bad as the system is, most would agree he is a good fit. Sorry, but there are many systems he simply is a poor fit. As much love as he gets, he isn't a power runner. In a system that utilizes him as a receiver, he excels, but many systems want their RBs to run the ball, and in this regard, I think he is closer than not to average. Sorry, but there are RBs out there that make their OLs look good. Forte is a RB that needs a good OL to look good. ( Money. Sorry again, but I think his market value is simply not going to be as great as he, and some here, believe. How many thought teams would throw the farm at Briggs, only to see Briggs tuck tail and return to the team he said he would never again play for. That's because as good as he is, he over-estimated his market value.

 

Two. Sure, every team out there has hits and misses, but our hits have simply been too few. Further, too few of our hits have been pro bowl caliber players. We talk about this okay player or that okay player, but how many studs has Angelo drafted? You get away with misses with hits, but when you have a lot of misses, you better have bigger hits, and Angelo's studs are in the minority.

 

DL - For all the DL he drafted, who would you call a stud? Harris was the closest, and that was short lived.

 

LB - Briggs, then......

 

DB - Tillman, who is very good but not a stud. After him, anyone? And there have been many many DBs drafted.

 

OL - Not one stud. Heck, not even one I would say is a solid starter.

 

RB - Several - one area I have given him credit for evaluation.

 

QB - Um....

 

WR - A few nice players, but would you go further.

 

TE - Um, nope again.

 

Where are the studs? In so many years of drafting, should we expect a few more pro bowl quality players?

 

[madlithuanian]

Ha! Your list is similar to mine!

 

Philips is one there for me. He is a business guy and when I look at the Forbes report evey year, we are under-performing financially for such a storried franchise. I think there are better businessmen out there than he. But as long as he can hire a good GM, I'll give him a pass. His hiring was only the reaction to the miserable mcCaskey McGinnis debacle.

 

Agreed. Toub is a keeper. In fact, can he HC? It's where some very good HC's have had their start...

 

LOL. My list? Every coach on our team except Toub. I'd also clean house with our college scouts. Our NFL scouts seem to do okay, but just take a look at our drafts. Angelo takes the fall, but I think our scouts have to be factored.

 

I don't have the issue with Phillips as some do. His job is the business side, and I don't think it can be argued he has done well in that regard. We have more money, and spend more, than ever before, and that is largely thanks to him. What we need is a total house cleaning on the football side, GM and all below. Again, I like toub and would keep him, but that's about it.

 

[BearsFan1974]

JA drafted Tillman? Why to I recall that as Hatley...or his guy in place as JA came into power.

 

JA's first draft was '02 but he got the job in '01 after the draft...Tillman was '03.

[jason]

LOL. My list? Every coach on our team except Toub. I'd also clean house with our college scouts. Our NFL scouts seem to do okay, but just take a look at our drafts. Angelo takes the fall, but I think our scouts have to be factored.

 

I don't have the issue with Phillips as some do. His job is the business side, and I don't think it can be argued he has done well in that regard. We have more money, and spend more, than ever before, and that is largely thanks to him. What we need is a total house cleaning on the football side, GM and all below. Again, I like toub and would keep him, but that's about it.

 

Agreed. Everything. Especially the college scouts. Those guys are horrible. Fire every one of those blind morons.