akshaz

Yes. Well no, unless you are Orton's mom. Then, the answer is still yes.

I'm honestly at a loss of words. I can't believe we made these moves. Think about it. The Bears have a quarterback. The Chicago Bears finally have a QB. Amazing.

I believe that you are singling out a few forms of hunting (like deer, turkey, duck) and extrapolating from there. Where in fact, most hunters simply hunt the biggest thing they can legally (and sometimes illegally) afford to hunt. Most serious hunters do it strictly for the sport of it. They have no interest in eating what they kill. It's purely for the trophies. Your example fails when you go to almost any hunting supply store. I've been to some in GA. They have stuffed bears, elk, wolves, coyotes, snakes, alligators, and almost any other animal that moves, breathes or swims. Very few are considered truly edible. Yet there they sit, a trophy for some hunter's pleasure. Also, these animals almost assuredly suffer. Very few hunters kill on the first strike. They shoot, then walk to the target where the animal lays wounded, usually panicked and trying to escape but cannot. Then the hunter, because of his "mercy", puts the animal out of its misery. In regards to your point on fish, have you ever fed your fish bait fish purely for the entertainment? What about snake feeding for entertainment? Why isn't that so immoral? Clearly other animals suffer in almost every example I've discussed. The only difference in this whole discussion is that most people like dogs more than others and consider their lives more worthy of saving/protecting. Mike Vick is only a devil/demon/outcast because he chose to fight/kill the wrong type of animal. As illegal as chicken fighting is, he would probably be considered a joke if he was found to be practicing in that "sport". No way would he have endured this level of punishment or vitriol.

Agreed. If we sign Pace, he must play RT. Williams' game is more finesse and doesn't have the strength/nastiness to play RT. Signing Pace to play LT would be a mistake IMHO and would take us back to the drawing board. If that's the case, I would disagree with the signing.

If we pull off all of these moves, I'll take down JA's picture from my dartboard, place it in a special place and light candles around it.

Absolutely not. Just playing a bit of devil's advocate to stress a point about Vick. Personally, I don't hunt. But, I believe that others should be able to do so, for food and sport, in the right situation. I'm just saying that one form of torture/animal abuse/animal killing shouldn't be "dinner-table" acceptable while the other is condemned. In regards to the fish, have you ever had one? I personally own predatory fish. I know they think. Therefore, I know they feel. I would seriously challenge your point that fish don't suffer "not tortuous" during the practice of fishing. Surely, they aren't having a good time with that hook stuck through their lip, bleeding, gasping, unable to breathe or free themselves. What if they legalized shooting stray dogs in the street? Would you support it? You know, to curb the population. Would you feel the same way?

On all of my hunting/feeding examples, I mentioned for the "sport" or "entertainment" of it. If those guys are hunting to put food on the table, I have no problem with it at all. However very, very few of hunters are hunting to eat. We both know this. They are only concerned with the "killing" part of it. When it comes to "big-game" hunters, it is not a question at all whether or not they're hunting for food. They are clearly killing for the fun and sport of it. "Curbing the population" is just an excuse. All this being said, it's obvious that I believe it's hypocritical to condemn Vick to such levels for animal abuse when there is all sorts of animal abuse around you. The think is, you don't care for the other animals as much. So, they are expendable and don't really count.

No link below. Is this some twisted April Fool's joke? Don't play with our hearts Omaha!!!!

That's my entire point. A lot of people have such a fascination with dogs that their lives are greater than all other animals, and some people. Let me make sure I understand you. Your problem with Vick is legal, not moral. Therefore, if he was fighting dogs in a state or jurisdiction where that activity wasn't illegal, you'd have no problem with it?

Comparing dog fighting to abused women is fair. Both stem from one in power displaying violence to or against a weaker being. Again, I believe that beating up women is far worse than dog fighting because I cherish/value HUMAN life more than lives of animals. Those chickens used to fight are NOT consumed for food. They are raised and trained specifically to fight and kill each other. They even have little chicken-sized weapons and armour. It's the real deal. You obviously don't realize that chickens are very much domesticated in many areas throughout the country. Many folks hold them as pets. Why are the others invalid? Because they make you think? Hunting for sport is only more palatable to some because they understand the culture. Bullfighting and hunting aren't even fair fights. The animal is almost guarenteed to be tortured, lose then die. Either you don't fully understand the examples I provided. Or you simply believe that dogs' lives are more important than other animals and some humans.

The kid is in high school. Once that was brought to my attention, it made things more clear. I just stopped discussing this with him.

I think this is a rationale perspective. It's a very fair question whether or not Vick can help us. He was never the best QB, but a great athlete. Maybe we have a place for him. Maybe not. I just believe it's hypocritical to throw him out of the league permanently for his crime when there are, IMHO, far worse crimes committed by players. He has paid his debt to society and lost almost everything he has worked for. If a team thinks he can help them win and wants to bring him in, he should be allowed to play.

Chicken fighting is illegal too. They can also be pets too. Actually, there are many stories about dogs harming/mauling/killing children of the family, especially breeds like pit-bulls and rottweilers. There are plenty of other stories about "possessive" dogs only listening to the "patriarch" of the family and intimidating everyone else. There are a lot of abused women and other animals that would love the protection everyone seems to give to dogs.

I don't have the data in front of me, but I think that there is a better chance in finding a solid starting QB in the 3rd round than finding a solid starting LT. QBs are much more likely to be misses than OTs, who rarely fall through the cracks. If we sign Pace, I'm not saying our OL would be stellar. I'm just saying it wouldn't be such an urgency to use a high draft pick on a OL because we have far more urgent needs, especially at WR and QB. Obviously, I'm not suggesting replacing Briggs or Url. But, I do believe we need a real playmaker at strong side backer as well.

Can we please try to get him? If JA pulls it off, I promise not to criticize anything he does for a year. Well, okay, that's a bit much.

Do you feel the same way about chicken fighters? Bullfighters? Hunting (for sport)? Circuses? Mice-feeding to snakes? Goldfish feeding to pet oscars, sharks and piranhas? (the latter examples for entertainment, not feeding, purposes) There are a lot of people who would argue that what Vick has done is no worse than some of the above examples. What say you? Are dog lives more important than these other animals?

Agree and disagree. First, I like your point about drafting a guy in the mid rounds (3rd of 4th) and letting him compete/play inside. However, I think that it's very unlikely that we'll find a difference maker at tackle so late in the draft. But, if you do draft a lineman with one of those picks, we are doing it at the expense of the other positions where we need help, ie QB, WR, Safety, LB. If we sign Pace, we will have starters at LT, C and RT with competition at the other inside positions. Clearly our OL will be far superior than years past. That being the case, I don't think we have the luxury of drafting another O-lineman in the 2nd or 3rd rounds where we really need to bring in a guy that can help us at other positions.

The guy gave up two sacks in 14 games at LT!! That's not too shabby by any standards. If he could simulate that performance at an easier position to play (RT), it would be a great addition for us.

Are you saying that we should still draft an OL at 18 even if we have Pace signed? What if Maclin, Sanchez or somebody like that is on the board? Do we still draft an OL who will clearly sit for at least a season or two while also neglecting the QB and WR position?

Okay. I didn't fully understand your earlier point. I also disagree with our "revolving door" philosophy on our OL. I firmly believe that we need to plug a guy in there and let him play for 5-7 years like most o-linemen. However, I also believe that these guys, more often than not, cannot be found in the later rounds. Good O-linemen go early and almost never hit free agency in their prime. Similar to Williams, we have to draft a guy in the first 1-2 rounds and let him develop. If we grap Pace, I don't believe that we need to use picks in the later rounds just to "address the position". More than likely, the guys won't pan out to much. We can use those picks for other needs. If we sign Pace, it would give us a "buffer" for this year. It will be more a need next year. But given our activity, I don't see a problem with not drafting more O-linemen this year if we pick up Pace.

But doesn't signing Pace mean and drafting Williams last year mean that OL isn't such a major need for us now? Not saying that we don't need young, new talent. I'm just saying it wouldn't be as urgent as, say WR or safety. I also wouldn't view Orlando Pace, a future HOF'r, as a bandaid. He would probably play at a higher level than anyone else we could bring in through draft or free agency, even if it's just for 2-3 seasons. We could draft a WR, see how it goes on the OL and maybe draft one next year if necessary.

You have a lot of people on there that were "blackballed" or out of the league because they were not signed. However, none of these guys ever got a lifetime ban. I guess the charges like battery of a pregnant woman, knocking a man unconscious, punching another man's girlfriend in the face, three choking women cases, holding a half-pound of weed, beating up a kid, starting a fight where a pregnant woman dies, killing a man just leaving work......and those types of examples aren't really "debateable" in your book and just "don't even come close" to dogfighting. All of these case, except the weed case, involves harming another human. Suffice it to say that we just disagree on what should be considered serious.

You are correct. I believe that getting hammered and then behind a wheel is worse than dog fighting because of the extremely high margin for error in harming another human being. However, it looks like Roger Goodell agrees with you because those guys with DUIs very seldom get more than a slap on the wrist. I would also say that assault/battery charges (fighting humans), especially on a child or woman is worse than dogfighting. Not to excuse or devalue the seriousness of what Vick has done. Again, personally I value human life more than dog/animal life. On the other hand, Mike Vick was "suspended indefinitely" on the charges/accusations alone. He was thrown out of the league way before the courts had their say. So, your point on Goodell dropping the hammer w/o a conviction wasn't the case for Vick.

Agree to a point. But, I mainly disagree. Orlando Pace, even with his age/deteriorization considered, can still be a very good tackle for us. I'd prefer if we let Williams develop at LT and Pace play RT for a couple seasons. But in either case, we are much better than we were last year; which is a "net-gain" in my book. Reuben Brown played at a very high level for us for a couple years. Fred Miller played well for a few years. Pace, although he's in his decline, is still better than most tackles in this league and surely better than any we've had in here recently. In regards to what I believe is your point on drafting a young guy, I agree. I'd rather draft a premier RT and plug him in on the other side of Williams for 5-7 years. But, if we can sign Pace and draft a big-time QB or WR, I'd be a very happy camper.

Can't let him leave town unsigned!!