nfoligno

Oh man, don't get Az going on scheme:) Honestly, I think Az and I struggle to communicate on this. I think we generally agree, but word choice makes it appear otherwise. I am not a huge fan of the cover two in general, but at the same time, I am not saying the scheme itself is bad. But when I criticize our scheme, I am looking at it more specific to "our" scheme, rather than the cover two in general. For example, both we and Indy run a verson of the cover two, but I would not say we run the same scheme. Whatever you want to call it, the scheme Babich/Lovie have designed for our team is not good, IMHO. I don't think it best utilizes talent, nor does it minimize weaknesses. Where he and I would agree though (I think) is that, however the scheme is designed, there is a failure to execute which makes the scheme look worse than it may be. My problem is, I don't think you can simply say, "our player need to better execute" and leave it at that. For example, if the scheme calls for the front four to pressure the QB, but our front four can't get the job done, then I argue the scheme needs to be changed because it doesn't work. Frankly, it just blows my mind how obvious some things appear, and yet go unchanged. Teams have figured out that we can be beaten w/ shorter, 3 step drops, hitting WRs on quick slants for easy gains, and yet how much have we seen a change? Our DBs are still lining up WAY off the LOS, allowing for the quick passes, which also has the effect of negating any potential pass rush. I just can not understand why we can't get our DBs to try and jam WRs, thus making the QB hold the ball longer, and thus giving our pass rusher more time to pressure the passer.

1a) I think Turner has done slightly above average. He has not done well. I think Turner has done well. For me, the key is what he has to work w/. Let's be honest for a moment about our talent level on offense. Going into the season, we had a huge question mark at QB, a rookie RB, and little to nothing on the OL and at WR. About the only position we had known talent was at TE. The expectations for our offense were VERY low. And yet the offense has done, overall, a pretty solid job. They have scored points and most often held a TOP advantage. While I disagree w/ numerous playcalls of Turner, when stepping back and looking at the picture as a whole, I think he has done a good job, at least when factoring what he has to work with. Regarding the FB dive - IMHO, the FB dive as a general concept is not a problem, but (a) I don't think we have a good running FB, thus it is not a very good option for us, and ( I think the other problem is our FB dive seems to always employ the same package, and thus is too predictable. When we go w/ the FB dive, we are in our "Moose" package. In other words, we have our power package, w/ both TEs tight off the OT. I can't recall who the opponent was, but another team said they knew what we were running based on our package. If we had a great OL, that would be fine. Every week you see a team lineup in a power package, telegraphing what they are going to do, but they simply ask their OL to win the battle. We simply don't have an OL that gets enough push, and thus this is a bad playcall for us. IMHO, we would be much better off spreading it out more, giving the perception of playaction, and then running it. We just do not have the OL to simply beat power v power. Regarding Az's beliefs, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding. It isn't so much the he doesn't believe we should question any playcall or decision of the front office or coaches. Az simply believes the problems lie in execution v scheme. Execution can be blamed on coaches as well as players, but his believe is the scheme as a whole is fine. He and I disagree on this point, but I do understand his position.

AZ, couple comments, as I have seen you say this numerous times. Sure, there is always second guessing, but I doubt there would be a ton of fans screaming that we should have squib kicked the ball if Norwood had a return that killed us. More likely, there would simply be complaints over the special teams blowing it. My main comment though is this. How often do we practice squib kicks? If it is something we practice often, and Gould simply didn't execute it well, then fine. IMHO, the problem was not so much the decision to squib kick it, but the execution of the kick was simply poor. But again, how often do we practice that kick. If we practice it rarely, then I do fault the decision. It we practice it often, then I don't as much. I disagree w/ it, but don't necessarily fault it. Personally, I think you kick away. Sure, you run the risk of a return, but I would take that over basically giving them the ball w/ good field position. Frankly, w/ the way our secondary was depleted, I would have been holding my breath on a hail mary, so field position was as key for me as the clock, and our best chance for field position would have been to just kick away IMHO.

The Monday Moring winning formula: 1 Kick it deep, but not into the endzone and keep it as close to the middle of the field. IMHO, if we can kick it into the endzone, that would have been as good as anything else we could have done. Yes, the clock doesn't run, but they get the ball at the 20, and have only 11 seconds w/ no timeouts. Sorry, but that would be the ideal situation. You take away concerns over Norwood having another solid return, Atlanta would not have good field position.

Re: Kreutz - Yea, that is about as sad as anything. He is supposed to have such athleticism, but I have not seen it in a while. Add to that how badly he gets dominated by the bigger, strong NTs, and I think it is time to start thinking about his replacement. I still wonder if Beekman is in the plans. Re: Tait - No question. He has been getting owned. I expected some issues agaisnt speed rushers, but what worries me is how he has been getting owned by strong RTs too. Basically, Tait is this year's version of Miller. Re: defense You and I still disagree here. I still question if the issue is talent vs scheme/coaching. Wale is a former double digit sack DE. Brown is a pro bowl alternate. Anderson had a boat load of sacks as a rookie. Harris is considered an elite DT. We have two of the best LBs in the game, and two near pro bowl tier CBs. Individually the talent seems to be there, but we are simply not seeing the results. So either our players are VERY over-rated, or our coaches are not doing enough to put them into the best situations in order to help them succeed.

Isn't that Beekman? He was supposedly being groomed to be our future center, but was moved to OG this year due to our injuries and lack of depth. As I recall, the coaches felt he is too short to be an OG, but like him at center. Point is, we may have Kreutz future replacement on the line now. I have no problem drafting more, but while I am not happy w/ Kreutz' play, I think we have numerous needs on the OL. Even if Williams works out, that's one down, four to go.

Two things. One, Roddy White very likely was their #1 read, but he was also wide open. If Tillman is covering White, then the rookie looks at the #2 read. So while I understand what you are saying, it isn't like they were forcing it to their top WR, and thus I would still say they were picking on Tillman. Two, Atlanta was moving around their WRs, and White didn't lineup opposite Tillman all game. If you take a look at the gamebook, I think you will find numerous snaps where Tillman was covering a different WR.

Agreed. At first, the belief was Kreutz was trying to do to much to off-set the weaker talent level of the OGs he was playing next to. Or because he was continually snapping to different QBs, and never formed chemistry with them. Or he was playing through minor injuries. Or pick your excuse. But it has been several years now, and I think the excuses are running out. The OG talent on either side is still weak, but at this point, I think it is time to accept that so has been Kreutz play. He may be a leader, but his play is simply not what it once was. With that said, I am not sure I would single him out too much, as I have not been too impressed by any on the OL. I can understand St.Clair and Beekman, but Garza and Tait have looked terrible IMHO as well.

I have seen many areas called out, but to me, more than any other key, we are simply losing the battle of the trenches. Offense Atlanta is not a great run defense, but we made them look pretty dang good. Prior to playing us, Grant (GB) hit them for 83 yards, and Grant has sucked this year. Carolina tag teamed them w/ Williams and Stewart for about 110. Larry Johnson, who has looked old and tired, racked up 121, and even Jamal Charles got into the action for another 40. TB ran all over them too w/ Graham (116) and Dunn (50). Then we face them, and we watch Forte getting hit early and often in the backfield. He ended up getting 76 yards on 20 carries, but those numbers are not representative IMHO. Forte had one really good run (20 yards), but otherwise was again averaging below 3 ypc. I am not ripping Forte, so Forte fans can simmer down. He was running into a freaking brick wall. I have seen some fans talk about how our pass blocking is looking better than our run blocking, but I question that somewhat. Personally, I think Orton is getting rid of the ball quickly, and doing a good job of throwing it away, and thus making the OL look better. How often have we really seen Orton able to sit in the pocket and allow plays to develop. He seems to always be having to move around and avoid a rush. Our OL is getting pushed back, and simply doing little at this point. Also notice the passes batted down. Man, Anderson was blowing up Tait. Garza was worse. Going into the season, the OL was expected to be a problem. Early on, there was hope they would be better than expected, but that is becoming more and more questionable IMHO. Defense The DL is doing a solid job stopping the run. They are holding their lanes, and not allowing cut backs. They are moving their blocks, and in position to make stops. BUT there is just so little in terms of pass rush. I swear, its almost like we have Blache as the DC again. This DL is supposed to be build on the idea of speed and penetration, and yet they are simply getting little to none. We talk about QBs, WRs, secondary, etc, but IMHO, the real problem lies in the trenches. On offense, that was at least expected, but on defense? We have spent way too much money to see the level of productivity we have seen to date.

Hey, we have few arguments. My point was simply that, w/ so many upper tier veterans on defense, I can not call out a backup CB, especially when I watched the opponent pick on our #1 CB even more often, and w/ plenty of success. You can say Graham didn't play well, and that is fine, but on the list of players I am ready to call out, he doesn't even rank as top 10.

In defense of Graham, Vasher was no Vasher when he had as little starting experience as Graham. While I am not saying Graham played well, I think there are plenty of veterans, who I have far greater expectations for, who did little to step up. In simply looking at CBs, I thought Tillman was picked on more than Graham. Tillman looked pretty bad. In the secondary in general, how bad as it become for Brown? Speed was never his greatest asset, but due to intelligence, he was quick to get to the play. I don't know if he is simply that much slower or what, but he always appears a couple steps late. And didn't he too have a potential pick fall off his fingertips. Yea, it wasn't an easy catch, but I question calling out Graham when Mike Brown was doing little better. Getting away from the secondary, how about that DL. Sure, they stuffed the run, but are they expected to be so one dimensional? Zero sacks. ZERO! And how about our all-pro LBs. What the hell did they do? W/ so man slants, I would have expected more from our LBs. So you want to criticize the play of Graham, fine, but I personally will hold off on ripping a young backup CB when our pro bowl starting veterans looked like crap.

I think the answer is expectations. Our offense has done better than expected this year, yet at the same time, I don't think we should expect too much from them. Our defense on the other hand is supposed to be elite. While they made stops and prevented Atlanta from getting into the endzone most of the game, I think you would be hard pressed to say they played well. Facing a rookie QB, they had ZERO sacks, and zero picks. The only turnover they created, they also gave back, actually improving Atlanta's situation. They allowed a rookie QB 300 yards and a TD. Even if you take away the final throw, they still gave up far more than I think would have been expected. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I think the reason many are blaming the D over the O is simply due to expectations. The offense scored 20. If our D is truly elite, that should be more than enough, especially against a rookie QB. But our D allowed a rookie QB to look like a pro bowler.

Turner had 220 yards and 2 TDs. Also, that was game one, when the expections were different. It was not known then just how bad Dets run defense was (or team), while Atlanta was expected to be one of the worst teams in the league. And, IMHO, 220 yards and 2 TDs for a RB is more comparable to throwing 450 yards and 4 scores for a QB. It isn't all or nothing. It isn't JUST about who a teams plays, but it is a factor. How can you seriously think opponents don't factor. This isn't just a FF thing, right? If so, then fine. Go straight off stats. But if it is a real life thing, then opponents matter, as do other situations. A team facing Det and doing well simply isn't going to get the props as a team facing a good defense, and doing well.

Your officially killing me mad. You act like I am hating on him. I am not. I am looking at him w/ a critical eye, just as I do (or at least try to do) w/ everyone. Give the kid rom room to improve...WE ARE ONLY 5 GAMES INTO THE SEASON! Wow. I didn't realize I wasn't giving him time or room to improve. I am asking for improvement. Does that sort of, by definition, mean I am giving him time to do so? Seriously, I tend to be negative about things, but this kid gives us all reason to smile. Let him do his thing, and sit back and enjoy. If after the season, you are unimpressed, we can address the issue. Prime example of where you are killing me. You imply above that I am "unimpressed". Are you reading my posts, or sort of glossing over them, making assumptions, and hitting the reply button. Come on Mad. While being critical, I have also said in nearly every post positive things about him. I have flat out said I love the kid. I have talked about his burst and how his legs never stop. I have given praise, but simply not blind praise. I am impressed. As I said, often he seems like one broken tackle from taking it to the house. At the same time, I also believe he needs to do more. That doesn't mean I have written him off, or passed judgement. Only that I think we need to see more out of him in the games to come. You seem to be giving Orton the benefit of the doubt, why not Forte? I do? Early on, while I complimented Orton on some aspects, I was also critical of others (like accuracy downfield). How exactly have I given Orton benefit of doubt. I just think you're nit-picking a solid rookie RB... nit-picking? I just don't think so. Nit-picking would be pointing out a hole here or there he missed in a game he ran for 100 yards on 25 carries. Saying that his 3 games in a row of between 2.3 and 3.0 ypc is not getting it done is far from nit-picking. He has tons of talent, but simply needs to step up his game more. Sorry, but if this were just about any other RB we have had, you would be bashing him, as would everyone. My god. Imagine if Benson put up 2.4 ypc for 36 yards against Detroit. Shoot. Imagine if AP did. Yes, we all want more, and improvement, yadda yadda yadda... But, what we've rec'd from him so far is wonderful! Enjoy it man!

Exactly. Orton had a great game, but if you are going to talk about the best of the week, I think who the opponent is has to be factored. Warner played a very good Buffalo defense, which was undefeated. Jax and Seattle are both better defenses than Detroit. Orton not being considered for the nod isn't a knock on him so much as a knock on who he played.

I'm glad we were able to rest the kid and still pull off a big win. I will agre w/ this statement. I thought it was ridiculous the number of carries he was at. If you run him into the ground, how will that help the team down the stretch. Even w/ the light day, he is still 2nd in the league in number of carries. I hope we see more of Kevin Jones, and even Wolfe, going forward. Not because I think they are better than Forte, but because I think we will kill the kid if we don't alter the number of carries we are giving him, which doesn't even count the number of catches and overall snaps. W/ that said, while I want to spread it around more, please no more handoffs to the FB.

Why am I something else? Honestly, this kid is delivering. I expect him only to get better with some bumps in the road...as he is a rookie. Feel free to withhold any praise. I just think it's a bit much asking him to be the next Jim Brown rattling off 5 YPC in the blink of an eye. We're 5 games into the season...let's let it play out a bit more! Enjoy the ride! When was the last time we could say that? Your something else on this point because when some here say we simply want to see 4ypc, or at least better than the 2.4 he put up against Detroit (one of the worst run defenses in the league) you make a leap and say we expect Jim Brown or 5 ypc. When has anyone said we expect that much. In fact, if you go back to last week, I think many of those on your side of the fence were putting those expectations on him for the Detroit game, expect 150+ yards. You will not find such a post from me, as my expectations were never as great. But my expectations are for greater than 2.4 ypc. My expectations are greater than 36 yards rushing against a bad run defense. So please, do not try to twist this into my expecting Jim Brown or 5 ypc in his first 5 games of his rookie year. Never have I said even similar. But I do expect 4 ypc, or very close to it. From from Jim Brown or Walter Payton expectations.

You guys again, are expecting miracles I think! Miracles? Not even close. You act like I am expecting 200 yard per game. I am not expecting miracles, but solid play. I expect about 4 ypc, which I think is fair. No, he may not get that in every game, but I think 4 ypc is pretty much the standard. Since when is expecting 4 ypc expecting a miracle? His stats are: 383 Rush yards (#8 in the league) (top rookie in league behind Chris Johnson) Yea, that sounds great until you see that he is 2nd in the league in carries, and his ypc is only 3.6 ypc. 2 Rushing TD's (#25 in league) - I'm sure this will pick up....McKie's runs could have easily been Forte's. No argument here. 0 Fumbles (#1 in league) This is huge. I LOVE that he has not turned it over, which is extra meaningful after Benson. 76.6 yds per game (sharing about 1/2 carries with Jones last game) (#11 in league) His per game average sounds good until you look a tad deeper at the numbers, which shows a great 1st game, and declining numbers in every game since. 3.6 average. (do that on 3 downs and it's a first) Come on Mad. I think Benson averaged 3.4 ypc. You could have said that too would equal a 1st down on 3 carries, but (a) does it really work that way and ( would anyone have said that if Benson were averageing 3.4 or 3.6 ypc? I like. I like a lot. Better is better, but let's stop and smell the roses here... It's a much better smell than the septic tank of Benson. Please do not confuse. I am not comparing Forte to Benson. I am not wishing we had Benson. I like Forte a ton. At the same time, why is it so hard to understand that Forte needs to do more. I don't care how you want to spin it. 3.6 ypc is not getting it done, not to mention the 3.0, 2.3 and 2.4 he has averaged in the last 3 games. I love to watch Forte. His legs are always moving. He shows solid burst, and often looks one step away from breaking free. I do appreciate much about him. At the same time, I just don't undertand why you find it so hard to understand a greater expectation than the results we have seen. I am not expecting miracles, but simply solid play from our starting RB. He started off solid, but has simply not done as well since. He needs to step it back up.

While Forte's YPC may not be lightning in a bottle, the yards he is getting are needed. He is getting firsts, extending drives,etc... It's not the number of yards as much, but when those yards are gained and what the result is. I disagree. Converting a 3rd down is awesome, and I give him credit for that, but you can get a hard running FB if all you are expecting is to pickup a yard or two here and there. I think we are looking for much more from Forte, and I doubt you actually disagree w/ that. Look, I am not just trying to bash the kid. I like him. I like much of what he brings to the table. At the same time, I think he needs to really step it up. I do not simply give him a pass due to stacked boxes or questionable OL. We have not given our RBs a pass for those issues in the past, so why now? Just because we like hiim? He started out very strong, but while not taking away from that performance, I wonder if it looks a tad less as awful as Indy has been stopping the run. Then he looked good, not great, against Carolina. Okay, good so far, but the numbers really went down from there. He had 89 yard against TB, but that was more due to the number of carries (27) as he posted only a 3 ypc avg., and his long gain was only 11 yards. Still, not look bad. Then he faced a very good run defense, and was flat out stuffed (43 yards on 2.3 ypc). That was awful, but also against an elite defense. But then he got to face Detroit. The same Det who gave up more than 300 rushing yards to Atlanta, a team w/ a rookie QB and who you know Det stacked the box against. No stacked box against GB, but 123 rushing yards. And then Gore hits them for 130 yards on nearly 5 ypc avg. Leading up to Det, fans were declaring Forte would have anywhere between 125 to 200 yards rushing. He gained 36 on a 2.4 ypc avg. Fans can come up w/ excuse after excuse, but why can we not simply say he didn't get it done, and needs to step up? By the way, while far from great, Kevin Jones had an equal number of yards, on 5 fewer carries. Forte is a very good looking RB, and I like him, but at the same time, he needs to step up his game. His numbers have fallen every week since the start, and we need to see him take that role as our lead RB. For a rookie, getting those yards is not only great, it's amazing. He is playing with an awareness some veterans never get... I don't know about this. RB is a position you often see rookies do well, and this year is no exception.

I understand that, and agree, but again, was that an exceptible excuse for former RBs of ours? Last year, Benson faced stacked boxes and ran behind an awful OL, but that didn't seem to matter to fans. I am NOT trying to say Benson is jack squat, or compare the two. I am only making the point that fans seem to be giving Forte a bit of a pass here. If any of our previous RBs, including TJ, put up weak numbers (particularly the YPC) like Forte, fans would be all over them.

Professional shitter. Just too bad you can put that on a resume.

But look at the situations. I would not saying that it can never be good to have one of those elite prima dona receivers, but I will say that (a) you have to have the right situation and ( it will only work out for a limited time. Situation. When you have a veteran, proven, QB who demands respect, than I think you have a greater liklihood of the WR being a good boy, or at least by their lower standards. You need a QB like McNabb or Brady, who will not allow the WR to walk all over them. That has been a big reason why I have not been in favor of getting a WR like that for us. W/o a QB who demands respect, I think it is just begging for a blowup situation. Just look at the issues we had w/ Moose, who did not have the bad record. Remember him throwing Orton under the bus? What do you think a Moss or TO would have done. Look at our game against Det. Roy Williams shows up his QB when the pass fell short, or was off. I just think that these sort of WRs can be great, but you have to have the right situation. If you don't, you are going to get the malcontent version rather than the pro bowl version. Limited Time - Can anyone think of an example of a prima dona WR that stuck w/ a team for a long period of time? I am not talking about going back decades, but more talking about the more recent versions of the prima donas. TO had success w/ SF, but was forced out of town when things didn't go well. Ditto in Phily. It has been good so far in Dallas, but as opponents focus to stop him and he doesn't light up the score board, he has begun to show signs of the TO everyone has come to expect. Moss was sent packing from Minny to Oakland, and then sent to NE, where he has begun to show some of the signs of his former self now that Brady is out. Chad Johnson was an elite WR, but then started crying about his money and demanding a trade, and now this year, he is a bust. Roy Williams has stuck w/ Det for some time, but appears to be quickly hastening his exit. All these WRs are incredible talents, but it just seems like they can only keep themselves in check for so long before they implode. Now you might argue you would take that limited window and go for a SB, but I would point back to point one, that we do not have the right situation for the immediate success to be seen. Final point. For a while, it seemed like all the elite WRs were also prima donas, but lately, it seems to me more and more upper tier to top tier WRs are also good character guys. You might have contract squabbles, but not the same sort of issues seen w/ the likes of TO, Moss, etc. Harrison, Holt, Wayne, Fitz, Hous, Colston, Bowe, White, Evans, S.Moss, Ward, Andre Johnson. So more and more of the games top WRs are also showing better character, which makes me question the need anymore to go after the likes of the TO, Moss, Chad Johnson, Roy Williams.

2. So far, I've yet to see ANY experts on this site. No one to my knowledge gets paid to post here... Well, I am at work, and getting paid as I post this. I am sure many here can say the same. So maybe we are all experts While I may not go so far as to say we are experts, I will say this. About 90% of what I read on ESPN, Fox Sports, CNNSI, or whoever, is info I already read and disucssed on this board. Sometimes long before I read it in any of the national (or local) stuff.

More than his total rushing yards, his YPC is a concern of mine, as that has continually gone down as well. 5.3 - 4.0 - 3.3 - 2.3 - 2.4 I realize teams are stacking up against him, but have we given a pass to prior RBs for this same reason? Teams have stacked the box against us for a long time now. This year is no different. A.Train, T.Jones, Benson, AP all faced stacked boxes, yet I do not recall this being considered a legit excuse. And as for Det stacking the box against us, wanna bet they stacked against SF too? Does anyone here think Det geared up to stop JT O'Sullivan, rather than Gore. And yet, against a stacked box, Gore had 27-130 and a 4.8 ypc average. So while I am thrilled overall w/ Orton and the rest of the offense, I am not sure we should so easily/quickly write off how Forte's run game struggles. I love the kid, as does everyone here, but he needs to start producing.

Admittedly, I am going off reports read, rather than what I have seen, as I have not watched NE much. But reports I have read talked about how Moss, after Brady went down, did begin to show some of the signs of the Moss cancer seen in the past. - Shortly after Brady went down, rather than try to talk up Cassel, Moss simply focused more on how Cassel is not Brady. I don't recall the exact words, but Moss was taken to task a bit for his comments. Sure, you can say it is obvious Cassel is not Brady, but at a time when you want players to rally around the new QB, Moss seemed more focused on the negative side. - Prior to joining NE, there were always reports about how Moss would play different when he knew the ball wasn't coming his way. Defenses talked about how they could tell by his approach to the snap whether he was the target or not. After joining NE, this was not seen, but in recent games, there was again talk about Moss taking plays off, or playing lazy on many downs. - I have also read that Moss was simply playing half hearted. He wasn't running his routes well, and seemed to lack focus. He had a few drops w/ Cassel that most feel he would have caught if Brady were in. There is no question Moss is an elite talent, but there have always been questions about his attitude. Those questions seemed to go away w/ Brady at the helm, and things going so well, but seem to be surfacing again w/ Brady out, and Moss' prospects for the season going downhill.