nfoligno

On offense, I think Turner did make adjustments, and the O did better in the first half. However, it's more than just the whole "he didn't make three or four right calls" argument. He constantly calls plays that make no sense in a football sense. He has since he's been here. Who the hell calls a shotgun pass on 3rd and short? Who does it with the QB, OL, and WRs we have? That's just moronic, and you'd think someone with years of experience as an offensive coordinator would know that. I am not arguing that Turner makes some really bone-headed calls. IMHO, he out-thinks himself. He believes teams expect one thing, so he is going to do something different. I get the logic, but at the same time, there is a reason teams expect something. On 3rd and 1, teams expect you are going to handoff to your RB. They expect this because most offenses expect to convert a 3rd and 1 w/ their RB. Too often, coaches out-think themselves, and Turner absolutely does this. Another non-recent example. I recall there being a game where we were facing an elite pass defense and weak run defense. Our strength was in the run game, so it would seem to matchup to our favor. Instead, we got pass happy. The reason? Our staff said they expected the defense to be geared up to stop the run, so we tried to do something different. But doing something different meant utilizing our weakness against their strength. We played into their hands, and it was ugly. But I am still going to give Turner some credit here. How often do we scream for our coaches to adjust? Finally, I saw an effective adjustment. Also, while some bear fans I think want to look at our offensive personnel and think more, we simply lack talent. Our OL is flat out awful. Our QB is simply a lesser of evils currently on the roster. Our best WR is a multiple team castoff. RB has looked great, but is a rookie, and has also made some rookie mistakes (blocking in particular). Can Turner do better. Abso-freaking-lutely. But lets not pretend this is a greatly talented offense that should be blowing opponents out of the water. On defense, Babich didn't blitz that much in the second half in the important spots. I was calling for it on nearly every play during the last two or three drives, and it didn't happen often. People misperceive this because the Bears have a lot of players on the line, but they still end up sending the front 4. If the Bears were actually blitzing effectively, there is no way in hell that Griese throws 60+ times. Turner needs to watch the last 5 years of game tape from the Eagles to figure out how to A] plan, and B] execute, a successful blitz that pounds the opposing QB. Hell, he could start with this week's beatdown the Eagles applied to Ben Rothlisberger. Not to mention the fact that I COMPLETELY agree with your assessment of the DLine. More stunts are needed, and the DE's running around end is laughably predictable. The biggest travesty, however, is the fact that every one of the Bears' opponents knows that the slant route is good for about 15 free receptions a game against the soft corners created by the cover-2 and the 10-yard cushion given by the Bears' DBs. Sure, we "show" a potential to blitz many, and many do drop back into coverage, but I disagree we don't blitz that much. We may stack the LOS, only to see 3 drop back, but on most downs, I saw at least one blitz. I am among the largest "babich-haters", and while I still am, the one thing I have given him is being more aggressive than in the past. We have blitzed, but (a) it is too obvious and ( just isn't effective. I assume you meant Babich needs to watch Eagles tape, and I couldn't agree more. I said in another thread how I salivate at the thought of our personnel under Eagles coaching. If only we could get a coach from the Eagles organization. Oh wait. We did, but let him go because he didn't want to run Lovie's scheme. Regarding the DL, I have said this before, but will continue to tell it. Idonije was on the Score last year being interviewed by former bears, when he was asked if we stunted. He paused. Said no. Then tried to explain how we have so much talent we don't need to. He was obviously uncomfortable w/ the question. After he was off the line, the former bears went off talking about how an average OT can easily block a pro bowl DE is he knows which way that DE is going to rush every snap. That really went off on our staff. As for our DBs, I really don't even understand the idea. While I disagree, I understand the thinking on our DL at least. DEs rush outside and prevent the QB from dropping deep, while the DTs penetrate inside. But I don't understand the idea behind our DBs playing so soft. IMHO, all this does is negate any potential pass rush. No matter how good your pass rush is, if the WR is immediately open, no DE/DT can get to the QB. Even if our DL was getting it done, our DBs are giving the QB an easy out. As my thread says, unless this improves drastically, the coaching staff needs to be fired. The only one doing well is Toub on ST. Yea, I give Toub a lot of credit. While our STs has not played as well this year, he has done the best job of coaching, IMHO. Every year he seems to lose some of his best STs players in the offseason, has tremendous amounts of turnover, and often gets a ton of players who barely make the team. And yet he always seems to produce solid special teams play. With all that said, the players aren't playing well either...so they deserve a lesser portion of the blame. Plenty of blame to go around, and I think there is plenty of blame for the players. We bash the DBs for soft coverage, but should that not also prevent the big plays we have given up? Coaches can't be blamed for drops or fumbles on the other side of the ball. And while we may lack talent, that doesn't excuse the horrible play of the OL. If it were just St Clair and Beekman struggling, fine, but I watched Garza, Tait and Kreutz getting abused as well.

Aren't you the one screaming to use KJ more? KJ looked stellar in preseason, and fans feel he should get more looks. How is that so different from your wanting KJ to see more action, but the staff letting him sit?

The offense did better this game, but simply put, Turner has not fully learned his lesson. He still doesn't understand how to call a game, and all too often his calls are predictable. A shotgun pass on third and short is a horrible call, and then to go to the same formation on another third and short is basically telling the opponents, "Hey, we know it didn't work last time, so we'll definitely run in this formation." It just seems like he doesn't really understand how to keep an opponent off balance. Sooner or later Turner has to be held accountable for how bad the offense is. I disagree w/ numerous playcalls too, but in the end, I think our problems on offense are far more simply about talent. The reality is, our offense simply is not very talented. I mentioned this in another thread, but I do give Turner credit for an adjustment that seemed to work well. In the 1st half, Orton was getting killed. At that time, we were sending out max weapons, and keeping only the OL back to block. In the 2nd half, Turner was keeping additional blockers back and using fewer weapons in routes. In that 2nd half though, Orton had a bit more time, and thus WRs were able to run their routes. The result was 8 catches by the Wrs in the 2nd half, after only 1 catch in the 1st. Simply put, there are no adjustments whatsoever. It looks good early on, but eventually the other team finds out how to adjust, and once again hurts the Bears. First of all, the DL needs to mix it up more. When the opponent's QB knows the Bears' DEs will just rush around the edge, it's easy for the OTs to adjust, and it's easy for the QB to step up. Do you think Griese would have had that many attempts if heat was coming up the middle? With a QB like Griese, prone to throw erratically under pressure, it's ridiculously obvious that you have to put heat on him, hit him, and press the WRs. Griese will make mistakes, and for the most part he did. But the last few drives were pathetic, with four man rushes happening over and over, and Griese sitting back hitting guys in stride. Speaking of hitting receivers in stride, can someone tell the DC to STOP THE DAMN SLANT PATTERN?!?! Preaching to the choir here. We are loaded w/ talent on defense, particularly in the front 7, yet we simple don't see the results. IMHO, that is because of coaching. I salivate at the idea of Phily's coaching staff having our personnel. You talk about wanting to see us do more rushing up the gut, but I saw that a lot. Problem is, that is all we did, and thus it was predictable and easier to cover. Basically, despite how good our DEs are, opponents can put their OTs on an island, as they only need to use our DEs momentum to block them clear of the pocket, since they know we are going to rush outside. That leaves three interior OL, plus often an additional blocker or two for the gut, where we always seem to send our LBs. Case in point is how effective we were the few times we did blitz from the outside. I recall urlacher once, and DM 2 or 3 times late in the game, blitzing outside, and all were effective. Griese was forced to basically get rid of the ball. It worked, IMHO, because we simply did the unexpected. As for the slant patterns, we are easy game for those so long as our DBs play 7-10 yards off the LOS. It is simply too easy for a WR to run 3-5 yards and cut accross. Our DBs will always be out of position and tailing the WR. You would like to have a LB there underneath, but we are blitzing our LBs because our DL is ineffective on their own. If you are facing Steve Smith, or even Joey Galloway, I can at least a bit understand the DBs playing soft, but who on TB or Carolina (w/ those two out) warrant such respect? I don't even want to mention his name. He's liable for the others, and neither the OC nor the DC makes any adjustments. The Bears constantly seem outmatched, and nearly the only time the Bears seem to be ahead of the other team is when the Bears' special teams are involved. I mentioned this, but I think Turner has made adjustement and done decent, but the reality is, we simply lack talent on offense. On defense though, we have too much talent to be looking like this. Especially since we are running Lovie's defense, much of the fault has to lie w/ him. If there are not major improvements, this entire staff needs to get the axe. Agreed, but do you see that happening?

So where does the problem lie? Is it w/ coaching or execution. And please, no middle of the road, "both" answers. Obviously, we have some issues w/ both, but which side of the fence does the greater level lie? Offense I think everyone here would disagree w/ quite a few playcalls, and I would agree. But I would also argue that we would disagree w/ some playcalls from every game, regardless who the coach is. While there are have some very questionabel playcalls, on offense, I think the issue is more execution. One big plus I give to Turner was an adjustment I saw after the 1st half. In the first half, Orton was getting flat out killed. In that half, we were sending out most of our players into routes, and leaving the OL to block Orton. They couldn't get it done. In the 2nd half, I saw a lot more additional blockers, which bought Orton more time, which allowed WRs to run their routes. In the first half, Orton was running for his life, and our WRs didn't have time to run their routes. In that half, we had ONLY ONE reception by a WR (Davis). In the 2nd half, we kept more blockers back to protect Orton, and this allowed for routes to develop, allowing for 8 receptions by WRs. I am not saying Turner is great, but I do think he made an adjustment that allowed our offense to do far better in the 2nd half. But in the end, weak OL play and some drops, hurt our offense more than simple coaching. Defense Honestly, I don't know what to say. I give Babich some credit for being aggressive, and staying that way. Late in the game, when I expected us to drop into a prevent defense, we didn't. We continued to blitz late in the game, and those blitzes gave us our only pressure. But that is also points to part of the problem. We were not getting any pressure w/o the blitz, and even w/ the blitz, pressure was hit and miss (more often miss). So that comes to an old question. Is our inability to mount pressure a problem of coaching of execution? My belief is still coaching. I still rarely see stunts or inside moves. Our DEs continue to simply take outside rush lanes, and thus simply get pushed out of the play, while the offense stacks the middle to blockout our DTs and inside blitzes. This problem is compounded w/ our DBs playing soft and way off the LOS. Maybe the problem is execution, but I sort of look at it this way. Babich is unproven, while many of our players are proven. Thus, i think the burden is on Babich. Lovie Its one thing for the D to look tired when the offense goes 3 and out every series, but we were winning the TOP battle, and still our D looked tired. And this is only the 3rd game. And we are supposed to have this rotation that prevents such. Is this a problem of Camp Lovie? I don't know. Our offense is not loaded w/ talent, and yet seems to be doing decent. Our defense though is sick w/ talent, and yet are simply not playing well. So while I am not sure coaching is as much a problem on offense, I do think coaching is the key issue on defense, and at the top as well.

I think the play in general is not a bad one. But it can't be used too often, or DBs will begin to jump on it, as they did in Carolina. Key for this play to work is a DB playing off the LOS. That is why these quick plays often work against us. Our DBs are usually dropping 5-7 yards off the LOS before the snap, and immediately back-peddling once the ball is snapped. When this happens, a quick strike to the WR finds him w/ space to make a move. He needs only beat one man to find open field. Unfortunately, most often our WRs face DBs standing on the LOS, due to a lack of respect, thus it is harder for our WRs to make a play or gain YAC. The best part of this play is, when it works, it can freeze the LBs and prevent them from attacking the inside to aggressively. But until our WRs get enough respect to find DBs playing back, as we do, I agree it is not a play we should use often.

IMHO, the jury is still out on Turner. I am not going to go back to the 90s when Turner was here last. That was a long time ago, and things change. He may have been a good OC once, but that doesn't mean he is today. IMHO, there has been a lot to be desired w/ Turner. While the player do need to execute, in the last two years, I question a lot of what Turner has done, and yes, even in our SB season, but especially last year. What I really questioned was how much Turner altered his game plan for our talent. Last year, it was obvious our OL was getting killed, and Rex could do little in the pocket to change that. To me, that is when an OC needs to step in and make some changes. More quick strikes. More protection. Why did we not see two TE formations until this year, for example. Now, this year, I have no problem w/ Turner. I pretty much agree w/ you on the last game. Were there calls that were questionable. Sure. But that can be said of every coach in every game. On the whole, Turner called a pretty good game. But player execution was simply not there. From penalties to missed passes to missed blocks to fumbles. If the player executed, I don't think many here would be screaming for Turner's head. I questioned Turner in the past, but feel he has called some good games thus far. In the first game, the player executed. In the 2nd, they didn't, and Turner is getting the blame, which is wrong.

I disagree that when Rex connects deep, defenses back off some. In both '06 and '07, we have seen Rex connect w/ Berrian (among others) deep, but it has never seemed to alter how defenses play us. IMHO, that is because (a) though it happens, it doesn't happen on a consistent enough basis to make defenses alter their plans and ( defenses believe Rex crumbles under pressure, and thus the best way to beat Rex is w/ tons of pressure. You may get beat deep a couple times, but at the end of the day you come out ahead because most of what Rex does under pressure is not good. No argument Rex throws a better deep ball. Frankly, I am not sure who would make that argument. But the argument I would make is, w/ Rex, we don't have many opportunities to throw the deep ball. IMHO, Orton has helped make the OL look good. If Rex were under center, we would see a ton more blitzes and Rex would get killed. What good does a stronger arm do for a QB on his back? Orton needs to improve his deep game, w/o question, but there is still no question in my mind we are better off with him than Rex. IMHO, if Rex were our QB, our OL would look awful.

Not surprising at all to me. How many top 10 picks don't get a 2nd chance, and a 3rd. Freaking Cade was signed by (I think) two teams after his release in Chicago. The only thing that surprises me is Alexander still has not been signed. I thought, of the two, Alexander would be the first to sign w/ someone.

5. Even if we lose a 2nd and 4th (where JA makes his money), we might be getting a 2nd or 3rd from Minnesota for compensation for Berrian. Don't elite, pro bowl players that move teams usually net no better than 3rd round picks? I would think Berrian nets us a 5th, maybe 4th if we are lucky.

Didn't everyone believe the same thing week one? I think Indy's offense is just as good as Dallas or Phily, and our D did a pretty good job in week one. Doesn't mean we will beat Phily, but I am not sure it is automatic either way.

gracias

And no Harris is not that smart. I saw their linebackers calling out the plays as well. They were reading Orton and not calling the exact play, they were calling what type of play it was, pass or run. LBs call out plays on pretty much every down. But Harris yelling what is coming does not seem the norm, and yet we saw it. Also, I do not think it was as simple as run/pass, as he seemed to direct which way the run was going. The fear is this. Pretty soon teams are going to take away the run and short passing game. Orton will have to loosen them up by hitting wide open receivers past 15 yards. And he will have to be an NFL caliber QB and check to the correct plays. I don't think you will find a post where I argue otherwise, though I do still believe a team can be far more dangerous than some credit w/o a deep ball. I have seen teams using the WCO, for example, and not often go deep, but that doesn't make them poor. But they do other things simply better. We have been running the RB screen, for example, better than in the past, but it still goes for small chunks of yards, where as other teams can turn this run into a big play. But the point is, I agree, and have said as much. Orton needs to improve on his downfield passing. Further, he needs to improve on his checks and audibles. But how much is experience? He has basically one season of experience on the field prior to this year, and I doubt he was given much freedom to audible or check at the LOS that first year. And I disagree about the defense. We dont have a good enough defense for Orton to kick back and play like he did on Sunday. That defensive effort in the second half was bad, IMO. Looked like the preseason, letting a rookie gash them like that. Missed tackles, Brown and Vasher look like trash in coverage. Orton is going to have to win games like that for us....and he didn't. Okay, fine. But then should the defense not be getting ripped a bit more. I have read plenty of "Orton sucks" posts, as well as "We should fire Turner today", but very little calling out the defense. Look, I agree Orton needs to improve, particularly his downfield play. I have NEVER said otherwise. But, the points I would make are (a) Orton was not all bad in this game, ( Orton did have a pretty decent game and © there are other areas who can share some of the burden beyond Orton, like the defense, as you said.

Dude they change audible calls/plays every game. What was called an audible when Harris was here has been changed many times. The defense was sniffing out Orton's changes. He changed to a bad play several times throughout the game. Really? I have never heard this. They come up w/ new terms and such for each and every game? Little hard to believe for me. We have a lot of players who struggle to learn the playbook w/o having to learn new stuff like this each and every week. Let me ask you this. Did you DVR or tape the game? If not, check it out again when replayed on NFL Network. Especially later in the game, take a look and tell me who is it on their defense yelling out to the other player and calling the coming play as if he were a fotune teller. I don't recall Harris being a Mike Brown clone when he was here. Suddenly, he is that smart? Sorry, but that is tough to swallow. It is far more believable to me that Harris brought a little insight as to what we were doing. And I disagree. He didn't play well enough to win this game. We needed a leader to march us down the field, and we didn't get it. Not that I want Rex in, because I think his ship has sailed, but Orton needs to improve quickly. First, if you go back, I have been very consistent calling out Orton on his downfield throws, and saying he needed to do more, and needs to improve. I said that I do not know whether he is simply a short term bandaid or a long term solution. I am not some blind Orton supporter. At the same time, I do believe he did enough for the team to win the game. If Olsen doesn't drop the ball twice, do we win? Loo, lots of "ifs and buts". At the end of the day, we did not win. But Orton didn't have a bad game. He had a pretty decent game, IMHO. Combine decent QB, w/ very solid RB and very solid defense, and I think that will often lead to wins.

Hey pix, I want to send "2nd and Long" an email, but I have no clue who he is. Issue is, I am not sure if we actually have to use Yahoo email or our regular email addresses. Can you tell me who 2nd and Long is, in terms of bearstalk names?

No problem w/ your statement, but I think it is the entire staff. I often don't make too big of a deal about player movement, but that is often because the system and terminology often see changes before a team plays against a team w/ an ex-player. When we play Minny, we will face Berrian. But while he knew the playbook, it is much harder to teach the minny defense everything. On the other hand, Harris was on the field, and in a position to make immediate calls/changes. Maybe it is all BS, but it sure did look like Harris, and the D as a whole, knew exactly what was coming, particularly after Orton made changes at the LOS, where Harris could hear such.

I think the key point though is, Orton is getting called out for not throwing a TD, yet not getting credit for plays like this which (a) should have been a score and ( at minimum, set up an automatic score.

I agree some of the hate is a bit quesionable. I will say this game showed some of Ortons weaknesses as well as strengths. Orton needs to improve his downfield strikes. It wasn't just one time, but numerous, where he missed WRs downfield, and by a bit. The announcers kept showing the numbers, and how effective he was in short strikes, but how ineffective he was downfield. At one time, I think he was 1 of 7 on throws 16+ yards, or something like that. That is not on anyone but Orton. Playcall was good enough, as the WR was getting open downfield. Pass protection on most of those plays looked good enough, as Orton was able to stand in the pocket and make the throw. His throws were simply off target. No question we can not expect every one of those passes to be completed, but (a) most were not even that close and ( he needs to complete a higher percentage downfield than he did. This is a weakness in his game right now, and an area he needs to work on. That's all I am saying. But I also think we saw several things that really speaks well about him. Pocket presense is huge. Numerous times I saw DEs coming around the edge, only to see Orton take a step or two forward. Once he did this, the DEs simply looked like they were taking wide routes, and the OTs job was made easier. It is such a small thing, but one Rex rarely seemed to get. IMHO, Rex would have been sacked a ton yesterday. Rex more often continued to drop back further and further, often right into the path of the DE. He made the OT look worse than he was. Orton makes the OTs job easier by moving up and around the pocket. I also thought Orton seemed to have "sense" of pressure. Call it an internal clock, 6th sense or just great peripheral vision, but several times I saw a pass rusher bearing down on Orton, only to see Orton move or get rid of the ball before the rusher had an opportunity for the sack. This was a gripe w/ Rex, who wouldn't even seem to notice pass rushers who blitzed up the middle, right in his face, until it was too late. But it isn't just pocket presence. I also thought Rex showed solid accuracy. Several times I saw him put the ball where only the WR could make a play on it. I have read where some said his pass to Lloyd was bad, but Lloyd just made a great play on the ball. BS. If Orton led Lloyd, then the DB would have been in position to make a play on the ball. By putting the ball where he did, Lloyd had to adjust, but was also the only one who had a chance to catch the ball. Delhomme did the same to us several times, as does every QB. I also saw him hit several receivers in stride, allowing for potential YAC. His downfield passing was far from accurate, but I thought his overall accuracy was solid. Orton has a LONG way to go in my book to establish himself as more than a short term answer for us, but there is still no doubt in my mind that he is a better option than Rex. Reality is, w/ Orton behind center, we beat the Colts. This past week, we faced another good team, and w/ Orton at QB, were in a strong position to win, but Orton's fumbles and penalties killed us. IMHO, if Rex were the QB, we would have turned the ball over more, and seen far more QB sacks.

No question. Penalties hurt this team a ton. Not too bad on defense. I think we had two, but I don't want to make a big deal of those as they came from aggressive play, and you don't want to make too big of an issue about one or two hear and there. But we had 4 penalties called on special teams, each of which hurt us in terms of field position. W/o an explosive offense, starting at the 10 instead of the 20 really hurts. We also had 7 on offense, and again, those are drive killers. This is an offense who is going to have a tough enough time getting 10 yards for a 1st, much less 15 or 20 yards.

I wonder how much was Harris being on the Carolina team. The announcers mentioned this. We have the same offense and same terminology as we did when Harris was w/ the team. The announcers pointed out that on several audibles, Harris was yelling to his teamates what the play would be. I am not sure that is so much "Orton being figured out" so much as a defensive player who knew our playbook. At least, that is what it looked like to me often enough.

Historically I've been one of the biggest Grossman backers here. But I still think the coaches made the right decision going with Orton. Grossman and his happy feet didn't win them or me over. I assumed Rex would win the job but, unfortunately, he didn't. Orton wasn't great yesterday (or against the Colts) but let's face it, in two games he did enough for us to win. Olsen gave this one away. I agree Orton needs to step up. At the same time, I have no doubts in my mind that Orton is still better for us as the starter. I saw numerous occasions yesterday where Orton stepped up in the pocket to give himself space to make a throw. One play, he didn't seem to do much, but took a pair of steps forward in the pocket, then drilled the WR for a 1st down (or maybe it was Forte). Either way, I remember watching and thinking that it would have been a sack if Rex were the QB. There were plenty of other times I felt the same. I agree Orton needs to do better. Much better. At the same time, I think we were in a position to win the game, and that may not have been the case if Rex were the QB, as I feel the turnovers and sacks would have been much higher. BTW... After hearing that the play to Booker was an Orton audible, I'm backing off the fire Turner thing. He called a decent game until the late third quarter. I still think he needs to grow a pair but the biggest blunder in this game wasn't Ron's. I normally have been a Turner basher, but not from yesterdays game. As you said, Turner called for Forte to run the ball on 3rd and 1, but Orton audibled. I would also point out that Turner called for numerous downfield strikes, but Orton simply missed. That the WRs were open speaks well of the playcall, IMHO, though. Turner called a pretty good game, IMHO, but failure to execute and penalties killed us.

Sorry, but harris did turnout to be a pretty solid safety for Carolina. He had nearly 100 tackles last year, and 8 FFs, which I believe put him among the league leaders. He's off to a solid start this year as well w/ 15 tackles and 2 FFs in 2 games. Harris was not great w/ us. There were questions when he was cut as he was a pretty good veteran, and releasing him meant counting on players who had not proven themselves. He went on and became a solid player in the new system, so that makes it look worse.

Agreed, though I do also feel the blame/fault/problem goes beyond just Olsen. What Olsen's 2 fumbles does show is how little our margin for error is. We had a pair of turnovers. They had one also, and it was returned for a TD. Yet they were able to over-come their error, as many team do. Olsen's fumbles hurt, w/o question, but a good team can overcome a couple turnovers. Thus, the prolems (IMHO) go beyond just that. I am a fan of Orton, but he didn't do well. He looked like a good enough QB if the team gives him a lead, but not one who can lead a comeback. He missed on WAY to many open downfield receivers. He also had some questionable playcalling, as the reports indicate some of the questionable playcalls were his making changes at the LOS. While the OL has done better than expected, I still don't think they are doing well. Their run blocking seems a bit inconsistent, but is not bad. Their pass blocking is not good though IMHO. Orton makes them look a little better due to quick, short strikes, but too often he was getting pressured. No one is calling out the D, but as good as they look overall, they really struggled to stop the run later in the game, and the missed tackles were a killer. And penalties really hurt as well. So what I really take away from this game is our room for error, or lack of.

I rarely have issue blaming the coaches, but..... While I too disagree w/ the Mckie run on 4th, as well as a few other plays, I think this one falls more on the players. If Olsen learns to hold onto the ball, how different is the score? If Orton hits a few of those downfield passes to open receivers, how about then? And while the OL was opening some holes for Forte, the pass protection was not all that good. Reality is, there will never be a game we agree w/ each and every playcall. The final one really hurt, but IMHO, if players executed prior to that, the game would have been far different, and far fewer would have been calling out Turner.

Really? When you draft a player at the #3 spot, give him a boatload of money, and he is talking retirement after 2 seasons, you think it over-blown? 3rd season for the QB, and he still doesn't look like a QB. He does not look like he is developing for a maturity standpoint either, and that isn't good for a QB.

Why should angelo have known. I am an Angelo basher, but I simply am not sure it should have been expected that Barton would be picked up on another teams 53 man roster. We are talking about a 7th round draft pick. You say good looking OT, and personally I agree, but I am not sure that he looked so good as to gain league wide attention. As much trouble as we had on the OL, he was still a late game (preseason) guy, so it isn't like he was some 7th rounder who was being considered for a starting job. He was a deep depth, 7th round pick, w/ limited upside who was being cut by a team w/o a lot of talent on the OL. If we cut TE, LB, DL or DB, I can understand a team taking a look, but I was not expecting many teams to be watching for OL we cut. I assume Miami had Barton on their draft boards, and are bringing in him for a look. As LT2 mentioned, he is basically going to get a 3 week tryout w/ Miami.