Battle at LT

[BearFan PHX]

It's always hard in training camp when you hear good or bad news to know whether the LTs are all playing well, or the DEs are sucking. And they kind of said a little of both.

Our coaches will know a lot more in a couple weeks when we scrimmage against the Bills. It's too bad most of the action these days happens during the week and not in the preseason games where WE could see it. We probably wont see anything we can count on until week 1. But Johnson will know, and for the first time in a long time it seems the coaches have vision and courage to act. So we have to just trust in them for now I guess.

I wish I had a more well informed opinion about the LT battle. But we dont get to see anything firsthand, and I dont really trust any of the pundits to tell me which of the three is the right choice based on a few plays, good or bad, that get blown out of proportion and become narratives. I suppose we will get to see LT2 and LT3 in pregame action vs second and third stringers but Im not sure how helpful that info is either. I expect all three of them to easily handle second and third string DEs on the opposing team, if they are realistically in competition to start.

I guess Im just saying Im gonna hold my powder on this until I see something. If we see fails, we will all certainly notice that, but im not willing, for example, to assume Braxton has a shot at starting until I see him block a good DE who has a strong bull rush. That's what he has to prove to win. Him handling Booker or even Dayo isnt gonna prove anything. Hopefully the Bills will bring some challenges for these guys with Joey Bosa and others.

EDIT - just looked at the schedule, and Miami is first, August joint practices and the game is the 10th. Bosa will still be a great test the week after, but hopefully Miami brings something to test these guys too.

[Stinger226]

The coaches evaluate everything and I trust their decision. As far as bull rush, I want to see all the LTs handle that. I dont think we can assume Kiran or Ozzy will be good and Braxton is same old self. Aug brings games and we will see how it plays out but I do think Kiran is being groomed to be the swing T and the actual battle is Ozzy and Braxton. Last year doesnt matter, the new coaches are judging them with the play they do now.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

The coaches evaluate everything and I trust their decision. As far as bull rush, I want to see all the LTs handle that. I dont think we can assume Kiran or Ozzy will be good and Braxton is same old self. Aug brings games and we will see how it plays out but I do think Kiran is being groomed to be the swing T and the actual battle is Ozzy and Braxton. Last year doesnt matter, the new coaches are judging them with the play they do now.

of course. and maybe Trapilo will be great against the bull rush and have a weakness to outside moves - who knows.

But we KNOW Jones' weakness, and having been injured instead of building leg strength is going to hurt him - I dont see any reason to assume that he will be better against the bull rush than he was before he got injured? He hasnt been learning or working out or anything.

And also, remember that this is probably Jones' last year of his rookie deal. Paying him like a starting LT is going to be a lot more impactful on our cap than if Amagadje or Trapilo gets the job. And we want to get familiarity on that OL going forward for several years...

So unless Trapilo and Amagadje are big fails and we NEED Jones as a stopgap this year, i think it is more likely that Jones will not be the starter. He will be trade bait, and also free agent compensation bait.

If Jones comes out of nowhere and plays like an all pro LT in ways weve never seen, then he will be worth the second contract money, but unless he is superman all of a sudden, or Trapilo and Amagadje are not ready for the NFL, Jones is odd man out.

[BearFan PHX]

I didnt know this, but the Dolphins were the 4th ranked defense, and the BIlls were 17th for yards allowed.

Good that the Bears offense will get a test.

[Stinger226]

3 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

of course. and maybe Trapilo will be great against the bull rush and have a weakness to outside moves - who knows.

But we KNOW Jones' weakness, and having been injured instead of building leg strength is going to hurt him - I dont see any reason to assume that he will be better against the bull rush than he was before he got injured? He hasnt been learning or working out or anything.

And also, remember that this is probably Jones' last year of his rookie deal. Paying him like a starting LT is going to be a lot more impactful on our cap than if Amagadje or Trapilo gets the job. And we want to get familiarity on that OL going forward for several years...

So unless Trapilo and Amagadje are big fails and we NEED Jones as a stopgap this year, i think it is more likely that Jones will not be the starter. He will be trade bait, and also free agent compensation bait.

If Jones comes out of nowhere and plays like an all pro LT in ways weve never seen, then he will be worth the second contract money, but unless he is superman all of a sudden, or Trapilo and Amagadje are not ready for the NFL, Jones is odd man out.

Yes we have tape on Braxton and not on Ozzy, some on Kiran. I dont think we can assume anything, Braxton could be better, players do get better and read where he looks bigger. A weak ankle does not totally take him away from working out.  I remember you saying, (lets see it ), I want to see it from all of the canidates. I too believe Jones wont be here next year but its to our advantage that he plays well for trade potenial. We do not know how much scheme, playing next to Thuney will affect any LTs play. We drafted 2 LTs in the last 2 yrs to be where we are at with the competition. I want them all to play well and let the coaches decide who deserves to start. 

[BearFan PHX]

9 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

Yes we have tape on Braxton and not on Ozzy, some on Kiran. I dont think we can assume anything, Braxton could be better, players do get better and read where he looks bigger. A weak ankle does not totally take him away from working out.  I remember you saying, (lets see it ), I want to see it from all of the canidates. I too believe Jones wont be here next year but its to our advantage that he plays well for trade potenial. We do not know how much scheme, playing next to Thuney will affect any LTs play. We drafted 2 LTs in the last 2 yrs to be where we are at with the competition. I want them all to play well and let the coaches decide who deserves to start. 

If we were to trade Jones it would have to be this year, because this is the last year of his contract. Letting him walk after this year could also likely result on some compensation.

But assuming he isnt in the long term plan, then if he is equal to Trapilo, or even a little better, then Trapilo should still win the job to build consistency on the OL. Same for Amagadje.

And i do think if he was rehabbing his ankle, he wasnt able to go all out in the weight room for the things that matter in anchoring and stopping a bull rush.

Both Jones and Kmet are in a similar position - both will take cap room next year, and each has a rookie competitor who is probably better than them already on the roster.

When your roster is good, like ours is becoming, then you start trading and cutting GOOD players, and thats new for us here, but it's what the good teams do to manage the cap and sustain winning programs year after year.

For those who become attached to those players its going to be a difficult ride, but it is good for the team int he end as long as the new talent coming in is up to the task.

 

[Stinger226]

40 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

If we were to trade Jones it would have to be this year, because this is the last year of his contract. Letting him walk after this year could also likely result on some compensation.

But assuming he isnt in the long term plan, then if he is equal to Trapilo, or even a little better, then Trapilo should still win the job to build consistency on the OL. Same for Amagadje.

And i do think if he was rehabbing his ankle, he wasnt able to go all out in the weight room for the things that matter in anchoring and stopping a bull rush.

Both Jones and Kmet are in a similar position - both will take cap room next year, and each has a rookie competitor who is probably better than them already on the roster.

When your roster is good, like ours is becoming, then you start trading and cutting GOOD players, and thats new for us here, but it's what the good teams do to manage the cap and sustain winning programs year after year.

For those who become attached to those players its going to be a difficult ride, but it is good for the team int he end as long as the new talent coming in is up to the task.

 

I dont believe GMs start cutting or trading good  players unless they are upside down with the cap. So lets say they trade Kmet in the offseason and Loveland gets hurt in the first month of the season. That makes that decision a bad idea. To many assumptions before we see how the team performs this year. Jones brings us a 3rd round comp if someone pays him over 20 mil, so he has value better than his 5th round draft position. Doubt anyone gives you better than a third if you trade him during the season.

[BearFan PHX]

2 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I dont believe GMs start cutting or trading good  players unless they are upside down with the cap. So lets say they trade Kmet in the offseason and Loveland gets hurt in the first month of the season. That makes that decision a bad idea. To many assumptions before we see how the team performs this year. Jones brings us a 3rd round comp if someone pays him over 20 mil, so he has value better than his 5th round draft position. Doubt anyone gives you better than a third if you trade him during the season.

To the point about no one trading a 3rd or better for Braxton, I generally agree. But you never know, if a LT goes down in preseason and a team is stuck, they might pay a 3rd for him.

To the idea of not moving good players in trade, I think when you look at the good teams, they all do this. You wouldnt CUT Kmet, but he is definitely trade bait at the trade deadline, or next offseason. As Ive said before he can play himself into staying, but hed have to do things he hasnt before.

You just look at the players that are eating the largest slices of cap space, and ask yourself if you have a replacement on the roster already. if the answer is yes, you get the trade value for them before the next contract comes. Thats just smart - and yes it means players that can help you go, but thats what the good teams do, and if we are smart, we will follow their lead when we can.

That means names that are GOOD too. Thats the point!

[Mongo3451]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

To the idea of not moving good players in trade, I think when you look at the good teams, they all do this. You wouldnt CUT Kmet, but he is definitely trade bait at the trade deadline, or next offseason. As Ive said before he can play himself into staying, but hed have to do things he hasnt before.

I don't agree with this.  Kmet is a proven veteran and was paid according to his value.  Regardless of the Loveland pick he has a place on this team.  If you look at the TE payroll it is not out of line with what anyone is paying.  I would actually consider it a value for a position of strength.  That won't change next year either.

Moving on to Braxton Jones: he is clearly in a crossroads.  Looking at our roster, the need for four OT's is real.  The given fact that it's easier for an OT to play OG is easier than than the other tells us it's a good thing to have four.  Braxton should stay unless we get a good deal for him.  It's good being in the catbird seat for once.  I like the bargaining chips we have at OL for once.

[BearFan PHX]

2 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

I don't agree with this.  Kmet is a proven veteran and was paid according to his value.  Regardless of the Loveland pick he has a place on this team.  If you look at the TE payroll it is not out of line with what anyone is paying.  I would actually consider it a value for a position of strength.  That won't change next year either.

Moving on to Braxton Jones: he is clearly in a crossroads.  Looking at our roster, the need for four OT's is real.  The given fact that it's easier for an OT to play OG is easier than than the other tells us it's a good thing to have four.  Braxton should stay unless we get a good deal for him.  It's good being in the catbird seat for once.  I like the bargaining chips we have at OL for once.

Ok, but this is the last year of Braxton's rookie deal - do you think we will pay him what LTs get paid in the league next year?

If not, then this is his last year. And dont you want your OL to gain cohesiveness going forward?

It is very likely in my opinion that Jones will not be the starter, and unless someone trades a 3rd or better for him, he will be our swing tackle this year, and gone next year. if we are gonna get a 3rd rounder in compensation for losing a free agent, then cool. If we arent, then we might look at a trade now or at the trade deadline.

As for Kmet, I dont think hes as good as you do, and thats cool. If he plays really well this year he could well stick around - having two great TEs is a luxury. But if he plays not so great, then i think we would rather allocate his cap space elsewhere and he will be gone either at the trade deadline this year or next offseason.

[Stinger226]

6 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

I don't agree with this.  Kmet is a proven veteran and was paid according to his value.  Regardless of the Loveland pick he has a place on this team.  If you look at the TE payroll it is not out of line with what anyone is paying.  I would actually consider it a value for a position of strength.  That won't change next year either.

Moving on to Braxton Jones: he is clearly in a crossroads.  Looking at our roster, the need for four OT's is real.  The given fact that it's easier for an OT to play OG is easier than than the other tells us it's a good thing to have four.  Braxton should stay unless we get a good deal for him.  It's good being in the catbird seat for once.  I like the bargaining chips we have at OL for once.

Obviously I agree with your opinion. He led the league in catch rate the last 2 yrs for TEs. He had 35 less targets last yr than in 2023.  It was because of the inept offense and coaching, not do to talent. I dont understand the notion that because we drafted a TE we should get rid of Kmet. Depth is a stength for good teams. Dumping good players when you are trying to establish a winning team is counter productive. If Braxton plays well that will be a plus for the team. As much as we know what Braxton is, Ozzy is still a rookie and lots of questions he has to answer that is not just going to show up in the preseason. With all the injuries we have had along the line the last two yrs, having 4 OTs is a plus. (as you stated)

[Mongo3451]

7 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Ok, but this is the last year of Braxton's rookie deal - do you think we will pay him what LTs get paid in the league next year?

If not, then this is his last year. And dont you want your OL to gain cohesiveness going forward?

This is the crossroad.  Braxton is 26 and a three year starter.  I'd imagine that several teams would love to have him.  IMO, we would love to be one of those teams.  Of course there are factors in play, like health and play.  If health is good, his play should continue to ascend.  Like I said a month ago, if he's the worst starting OL on the team, that's not a bad thing.  Jordan Mialata was that once.  IMO the only thing that pushes him out the door is one of the youngsters and it's not like either had a first round grade.  It's the best of both worlds of they do.

[Stinger226]

10 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

This is the crossroad.  Braxton is 26 and a three year starter.  I'd imagine that several teams would love to have him.  IMO, we would love to be one of those teams.  Of course there are factors in play, like health and play.  If health is good, his play should continue to ascend.  Like I said a month ago, if he's the worst starting OL on the team, that's not a bad thing.  Jordan Mialata was that once.  IMO the only thing that pushes him out the door is one of the youngsters and it's not like either had a first round grade.  It's the best of both worlds of they do.

I would say we got 3 yrs of average play from a 5th round LT. Plus a 3rd round comp pick. I would have to say that is one of Poles good moves over the last 3 years. It is hard to assume a 2nd round RT pick transitioning to LT in his rookie year has some growing to do before he may be ready to take over the starting position. Doubt  that is at the start of the season. If at some time this year he is ready, then Braxton leaves for big money and no harm done.

[BearFan PHX]

19 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

I would say we got 3 yrs of average play from a 5th round LT. Plus a 3rd round comp pick. I would have to say that is one of Poles good moves over the last 3 years. It is hard to assume a 2nd round RT pick transitioning to LT in his rookie year has some growing to do before he may be ready to take over the starting position. Doubt  that is at the start of the season. If at some time this year he is ready, then Braxton leaves for big money and no harm done.

so there is a difference between a 5th round pick playing like a 3rd round pick, which is a great move by Poles and great value, and someone playing well at LT. Just because someone is value doesnt mean they are GOOD, and given the revamping of the roster, I dont value Braxton Jones at all right now.

If he outplays the others and takes the job and dominates then of COURSE I want to keep him and pay him. But if he plays like he has the past few years, he sould be a backup and trade bait (or free agent loss with compensation)

But being good value, and playing well are two different things.

And I also dont see how you can discount Trapilo for being a 2nd round pick, or Amagadje for being a 3rd round pick. As you know 1st round picks can flame out and 5th round picks can become superstars. Once they are picked, its how good the player is that matters, not the round they were taken in.

Right now, I would guess that Trapilo is better than Jones today. The real competition should be between Trapilo and Amagadje. Im basing this on Jones' previous NFL film. If he comes back different, then that changes everything, but I dont see how anyone can assume that Jones would be better than hes already been?

Also the free agency thing includes offsets for us signing free agents too - so it might be that a 4th rounder for Jones is more than wed get in compensation for him?