To hell w/ it. Blow it up.

[DrunkBomber]

I dont know about you guys but if I worked for a company and was in demand and a commodity in my field I think its very easy to understand this. Even if you sign a contract. If my company is bringing in new guys that arent as good as me and paying them more and there are other companies that are willing to offer more money I would absolutely want to renegotiate my contract and use any leverage I needed. Most of these players arent fans of the teams theyre on and they dont owe us anything. They have such short careers that can end on any play and after most of them fade away we forget about them. I cant blame them for wanting to maximize their situation at all.

[BearFan PHX]

I dont know about you guys but if I worked for a company and was in demand and a commodity in my field I think its very easy to understand this. Even if you sign a contract. If my company is bringing in new guys that arent as good as me and paying them more and there are other companies that are willing to offer more money I would absolutely want to renegotiate my contract and use any leverage I needed. Most of these players arent fans of the teams theyre on and they dont owe us anything. They have such short careers that can end on any play and after most of them fade away we forget about them. I cant blame them for wanting to maximize their situation at all.

 

Thanks you Bomber. Somehow you managed to make the same point in only 20% as many words, and without sounding arrogant. I suppose that you would get the contract, and I'd be demoted to second string.

 

Right on.

[nfoligno]

How do they make the team money? Didn't the bears sell out their games, even during the shit years, when the best player was....um....Curtis Conway? Bears still sold out. I believe jersey sales going into the league sharing pool, so how do you think these players actually make the team money.

[nfoligno]

Jersey sales. Other merchandise. Theres also that they have huge fanbases and fans generate money for teams. I shouldnt have to even explain this just to prove a point, but I really hoping youre not trying to say those guys dont make more money for the team than other players. Also, if you traded them there would be several fans, myself included, that would be very upset about getting rid of the two biggest producers on our team and might think twice about paying $300 to go to a game to watch a bunch of over priced rookies instead of Urlacher and Hester.

 

One, while I am not 100%, I believe player jerseys go into the league sharing program, and thus doesn't really make the team money. I guess they make the team some extra, but only 1/32 share.

 

So if the team go rid of Urlacher and Hester, you would not go to a game. Hate to say this, but there is a line behind you that would. Thus, while many would be upset, that does not mean it would actually affect the teams bottom dollar.

[DrunkBomber]

How do they make the team money? Didn't the bears sell out their games, even during the shit years, when the best player was....um....Curtis Conway? Bears still sold out. I believe jersey sales going into the league sharing pool, so how do you think these players actually make the team money.

They generate fans. Fans make the team money in lots of ways. Media contracts, ticket PRICES, merchandise. The better a team is the more they can charge for different things and the more exposure they get. Even things as simple as prime time games because people want to see them. If they just traded away players as popular as Hester and Urlacher not only would it jeopardize them making new fans in the future but it would also jeopardize their current fans. As a fan, if the team did this I would be extremely pissed off and Im sure lots of other people would too.

[DrunkBomber]

One, while I am not 100%, I believe player jerseys go into the league sharing program, and thus doesn't really make the team money. I guess they make the team some extra, but only 1/32 share.

 

So if the team go rid of Urlacher and Hester, you would not go to a game. Hate to say this, but there is a line behind you that would. Thus, while many would be upset, that does not mean it would actually affect the teams bottom dollar.

Im not saying I wouldnt go to any games but I wouldnt pay the kind of money for tickets as I would if they blew the team up. They would be terrible for years and the supply and demand of the tickets would really water down the value of them. Its not good business to make trades like these and thats why they dont happen. Its only hypothetical but in reality the idea at the beginning of this thread would absolutely never happen for lots of reasons. Nitpicking where exaclty the money is coming from is moot and its not really needed for the argument. You can simply say its a bad idea because they would be trading away their best players and all they would get in return is draft picks that would cost more without having proven themselves. They will never get enough compensation for those guys that benefits the team more than them being here and the coaching staff knows that.

[bear trap]

I think it's everything being thrown at us that's really starting to anger us loyal fans. This team as a whole is starting to look like it might just need to be blown up. With football starting to buzz again, me as a fan would like to hear these players are hungry to redeem themselves and the front office is ready to add the right pieces through the draft to help bring the team to that level again. But all were getting out of the media is the unhappiness of the team. We've read about Harris, Urlacher, Briggs, Hester, and now Gould all unhappy and most of them are skipping the voluntary workouts except for Hester. I know its voluntary, but not showing up to me says that they don't care enough about the team or there goals. Right now, this team has nothing going for them at all. Questions at every offensive position (QB, RB, WR, T, G) and now we have our best D players which should be the leaders of this team threatening the only positive we have to look forward to. If there going to be unhappy and show there displeasure by not showing leadership by being at the voluntary practices/working out as a team, we will never reach our goal. The Bears front office have said they want to get all of these guys taken care of and they want to take care of there own. Negotiations take time which is understandable. These players also have to realize that theres only so many gum balls in the jar and if they all want the most, they all won't be able to dip into the same jar. I hope we can get this all behind us quickly and this team can get together and focus on winning. Otherwise, like thread was titled to hell w/ it. Blow it up.

 

I would say this says it all and then some:

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...,5277616.column

 

I agree totally with these points and while I understand renegotiations, something must be done before everyone starts following in Drew Rosenhous's footsteps.

[jason]

No, I just don't agree with you.

 

Actually, I toss out rebuttals because I don't agree with you. You are assuming that if I understood your jealous and judgmental point of view that i would have to agree with it, but I don't is all.

 

Well I don't disagree about some spoiled athletes. Benson and Briggs come to mind. Of course I said so in earlier posts, so maybe you're not the one reading and understanding?

 

All of the above. Everyone works for money, don't you? More money is better. Money isn't everything, but it isn't nothing either. Have you ever turned down a raise?

 

But if they know that these things happen going in, then surely planning for such eventualities must also be included in the first deal? If everyone knows it happens, then why are you so upset that it happens?

 

Didn't we try to do this with Darwin Walker before we cut him? I hear stories every year in the paper about players that the team wants to ask to take a pay cut or else they will cut them. But so what? Even if you're right about this, if it is the norm, then it is included in the understanding when the first deal is made. Why can't you understand this? And why does it make you so angry?

 

So because a majority of fans on this board don't agree with the professionals doing it for a living, I must be wrong? Does it occur to you that the GMs of the league might know better than the majority of the folks on this board? To be clear, i don't think I know even 10% of what it takes to be a GM. I don't think any of us do. The difference is that I admit that, so if that makes me arrogant, I think you are a little too in love with your own point of view.

 

I think THIS is the heart of the matter. You're jealous because you don't get star treatment. For the record, yes some high ranked working folks DO get paid more after performing well, and they DO play hardball with their employers. Lawyers and executives do it all the time. And the raise can be a lot more than 30 or 40%.

 

You think that someone who has the position to demand more is a slap in the face to you because you don't. Well, I didn't do that to you, and neither did Urlacher. Maybe you should have paid more attention in school, or grow a pair of balls. The world is a competitive place, and winners get paid.

 

A guy who is a fast talking CEO is a bigger asshole than a guy like Urlacher who works his tail off. I respect the hell out of Urlacher, and I hope he gets paid big. I also think that mid April is a fine time to make contract demands.

 

If you misuderstand the leauge, money, negotiations, contracts and business as greed, then yes, you don't understand it

 

Again, just because the majority think something doesn't make it right. And just because I think you're wrong doesn't mean that I think I am the smartest guy on the planet. After this discussion, I do think I might be smarter than you though. But that isn't arrogance, you're just flying off the handle in an internet discussion, and saying a lot of dumb stuff, so you'll pardon my inability to notice how bright you are in that context.

 

As for being arrogant and superior because I think I'm right, isn't that exactly what you're doing too? Is it possible to stand up for your side of an argument without being seen that way by the other side? Is that possible with you?

 

Seriously, you need to calm down. Its mid April, and Biran is just trying to get paid. Its about as natural a thing as there is, and you're WAY overreacting.

 

After reading the rest of your comments on this thread, it's pretty clear that you are the one being irrational and emotional about this issue, not me.

 

I understand that the negotiations happen the way they do, but I'm pretty confident that the constant renegotiations happen because of greedy players and agents most of the time, and players deserving more the rest of the time.

 

Just for your own information, I work for a small company, make very good money, and I could totally dick my company if I wanted to. I could demand more money or quit like the pro athletes do (but I couldn't stay out as long, obviously). The reason I don't is because I made an agreement, I shook hands, I signed a contract, and I'm not a dick.

 

Speaking about specific questions:

1) Have I turned down a raise? No. But that's not what is happening. Is it? They aren't offering raises unless they have entered into negotiations with the players.

2) Did the offer to take less money happen with Darwin Walker? I don't know, honestly. However, what happened to him? Cut. This is not a realistic recourse for the owners in situations dealing with Urlacher, Hester, and Harris. Not only does cutting a player like basically mean you lose your job as the GM, but it also kills you in the salary cap. And as you like to mention, the GM has to do a lot of things, one of which is salary cap management.

 

As for the GMs, I think most would admit to the fact that we don't know as much as them. But what you don't seem to understand is the fact that the GMs surely don't like the fact that the players seem to be pulling this renegotiation demands garbage more and more nowadays. They accept it because they can't change it, but it's a stone-cold guarantee that they dislike it.

 

Keep thinking you're smarter than everyone else. Keep thinking you know everything. Your assumptions and ad hominems just prove that your argument is weak.

 

Keep throwing fits and calling people names because you can't get your way. Take your ball and go home. Just like the old board; you're gonna cry and whine like this stuff is somehow personal to you and crucial to your life.

 

The sad thing is, you still don't get it.

[BearFan PHX]

After reading the rest of your comments on this thread, it's pretty clear that you are the one being irrational and emotional about this issue, not me.

 

It is not irrational to understand supply and demand and how markets work. I’m sorry that this upsets you. That it does is irrational.

 

Just for your own information, I work for a small company, make very good money, and I could totally dick my company if I wanted to. I could demand more money or quit like the pro athletes do (but I couldn't stay out as long, obviously). The reason I don't is because I made an agreement, I shook hands, I signed a contract, and I'm not a dick.

 

Do others at your company routinely renegotiate their deals? Did your company earnings dramatically increase in the last three years? Are you one of the main reasons your company is making so much more money? Would you make a dramatically larger sum if your deal was up, and it was time for a new one? Are you one of the top 5 people in the world at your job?

 

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then your situation doesn’t have anything to do with it.

 

And that is the problem here. You keep thinking that Urlacher should behave like you do. His situation is nothing like yours. You are jealous, judgmental and superior.

 

what you don't seem to understand is the fact that the GMs surely don't like the fact that the players seem to be pulling this renegotiation demands garbage more and more nowadays. They accept it because they can't change it, but it's a stone-cold guarantee that they dislike it.

 

And I don’t like paying for groceries either. I’d rather they were free. But they aren’t. The market sets the price. If another store has food of the same quality at dramatically lower prices, then I will shop there, and the overpriced store will go out of business.

 

You need to read Adam Smith, or some simple economic textbooks. Either you don’t get it, or you get it but you hate it anyway. Either way, you’re responding with a lot of emotion about something that is simple - cut and dried. Its weird that you’re so angry about the way the world works. Have you considered therapy?

 

Keep thinking you're smarter than everyone else. Keep thinking you know everything.

 

I’m not smarter than everyone else, but I am smarter than someone who can’t understand basic things like a free market etc. I don’t know everything, but I do know something. In fact, it’s a pretty simple something that I know in this case. Its really weird that it offends you so much.

 

Your assumptions and ad hominems just prove that your argument is weak.

 

Keep throwing fits and calling people names because you can't get your way. Take your ball and go home. Just like the old board; you're gonna cry and whine like this stuff is somehow personal to you and crucial to your life.

 

The sad thing is, you still don't get it.

 

And that isn’t an ad hominem attack?

 

By the way, the definition of an ad hominem attack is one where you attack the person rather than the argument they are making. In my case, the argument I’m making IS that you are jealous and judgmental, so it isn’t an ad hominem attack, it is the thesis I am promoting.

 

Seriously, why are you so upset that Urlacher is renegotiating his deal in mid April? If you’re pissed about your lot in life change it. It’s not too late. And it certainly isn’t Brian Urlacher’s fault.

[DrunkBomber]

It is not irrational to understand supply and demand and how markets work. I’m sorry that this upsets you. That it does is irrational.

 

 

 

Do others at your company routinely renegotiate their deals? Did your company earnings dramatically increase in the last three years? Are you one of the main reasons your company is making so much more money? Would you make a dramatically larger sum if your deal was up, and it was time for a new one? Are you one of the top 5 people in the world at your job?

 

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then your situation doesn’t have anything to do with it.

 

And that is the problem here. You keep thinking that Urlacher should behave like you do. His situation is nothing like yours. You are jealous, judgmental and superior.

 

 

 

And I don’t like paying for groceries either. I’d rather they were free. But they aren’t. The market sets the price. If another store has food of the same quality at dramatically lower prices, then I will shop there, and the overpriced store will go out of business.

 

You need to read Adam Smith, or some simple economic textbooks. Either you don’t get it, or you get it but you hate it anyway. Either way, you’re responding with a lot of emotion about something that is simple - cut and dried. Its weird that you’re so angry about the way the world works. Have you considered therapy?

 

 

 

I’m not smarter than everyone else, but I am smarter than someone who can’t understand basic things like a free market etc. I don’t know everything, but I do know something. In fact, it’s a pretty simple something that I know in this case. Its really weird that it offends you so much.

 

 

 

And that isn’t an ad hominem attack?

 

By the way, the definition of an ad hominem attack is one where you attack the person rather than the argument they are making. In my case, the argument I’m making IS that you are jealous and judgmental, so it isn’t an ad hominem attack, it is the thesis I am promoting.

 

Seriously, why are you so upset that Urlacher is renegotiating his deal in mid April? If you’re pissed about your lot in life change it. It’s not too late. And it certainly isn’t Brian Urlacher’s fault.

Honestly dont sweat it. I honestly think your explanation makes enough sense that it can be in a freshman high school text book for economics. It appears some people wear their heart on their sleeves when it comes to the Bears so I wouldnt worry about it. Some people have to separate themselves from being a fan and business reality to understand where these guys are coming from.

[BearFan PHX]

Honestly dont sweat it. I honestly think your explanation makes enough sense that it can be in a freshman high school text book for economics. It appears some people wear their heart on their sleeves when it comes to the Bears so I wouldnt worry about it. Some people have to separate themselves from being a fan and business reality to understand where these guys are coming from.

 

Fair enough. I guess I wear mine on my sleeve too, but I really root for the players. I suppose I get upset reading this stuff (and I shouldn't either) because I see Urlacher as a human being, and I root for him. I think of how hard he works for us, and to see him trashed makes me mad - and I know that it shouldn't.

 

I mean, I GET being a Bears fan, but I think that means I love the players, at least as long as they are Bears, more than I love McCaskey.

[bear trap]

It is not irrational to understand supply and demand and how markets work. I’m sorry that this upsets you. That it does is irrational.

 

 

 

Do others at your company routinely renegotiate their deals? Did your company earnings dramatically increase in the last three years? Are you one of the main reasons your company is making so much more money? Would you make a dramatically larger sum if your deal was up, and it was time for a new one? Are you one of the top 5 people in the world at your job?

 

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then your situation doesn’t have anything to do with it.

 

And that is the problem here. You keep thinking that Urlacher should behave like you do. His situation is nothing like yours. You are jealous, judgmental and superior.

 

 

 

And I don’t like paying for groceries either. I’d rather they were free. But they aren’t. The market sets the price. If another store has food of the same quality at dramatically lower prices, then I will shop there, and the overpriced store will go out of business.

 

You need to read Adam Smith, or some simple economic textbooks. Either you don’t get it, or you get it but you hate it anyway. Either way, you’re responding with a lot of emotion about something that is simple - cut and dried. Its weird that you’re so angry about the way the world works. Have you considered therapy?

 

 

 

I’m not smarter than everyone else, but I am smarter than someone who can’t understand basic things like a free market etc. I don’t know everything, but I do know something. In fact, it’s a pretty simple something that I know in this case. Its really weird that it offends you so much.

 

 

 

And that isn’t an ad hominem attack?

 

By the way, the definition of an ad hominem attack is one where you attack the person rather than the argument they are making. In my case, the argument I’m making IS that you are jealous and judgmental, so it isn’t an ad hominem attack, it is the thesis I am promoting.

 

Seriously, why are you so upset that Urlacher is renegotiating his deal in mid April? If you’re pissed about your lot in life change it. It’s not too late. And it certainly isn’t Brian Urlacher’s fault.

 

 

Why do you think he's jealous? Many people like their jobs, just b/c professional athletes make millions and are famous doesn't mean he wishes he could do what they do. Would I like the money, sure , however I'm not jealous of those guys. You keep responding with the exact same thing. Didn't you call me an asshole for underlining and bold printing my post? You quoting numerous and different part of his post isn't being a sarcastic asshole??? Your hypocracy will only take you so far, so be civilized and drop this whole arguement. You're pro athletes doing the extreme to get more money and a few of us think they're going too far with their threats. The fact is that there are only a select few in this league that resort to this behavior. That about sums it up end of discussion. So let's forget about this post and move on, neither side will aree to what the other is saying, and to some degree both sides are right. Drop it.

[BearFan PHX]

Why do you think he's jealous? Many people like their jobs, just b/c professional athletes make millions and are famous doesn't mean he wishes he could do what they do. Would I like the money, sure , however I'm not jealous of those guys. You keep responding with the exact same thing.

 

I'm guessing that he's jealous because he keeps comparing the situation to his own, and because in the Hester thread he said:

"I don't hate them for their contracts. Like you, I'm just jealous."

 

Didn't you call me an asshole for underlining and bold printing my post? You quoting numerous and different part of his post isn't being a sarcastic asshole???

 

I'm just quoting him to be clear to what I'm responding to. No sarcasm in it.

 

Regarding your post, you said that I wasn't reading it, so you would put it in bold and underline so I could see it. I thought that was sarcastic and obnoxious.

 

Your hypocracy will only take you so far, so be civilized and drop this whole arguement. You're pro athletes doing the extreme to get more money and a few of us think they're going too far with their threats. The fact is that there are only a select few in this league that resort to this behavior. That about sums it up end of discussion. So let's forget about this post and move on, neither side will aree to what the other is saying, and to some degree both sides are right. Drop it.

 

I don't think I'm being hypocritical, but I do appreciate your writing that both sides may have some validity. That's the beginning of a negotiated solution - something with mutual respect. I'm always open to something like that.

[bear trap]

I'm guessing that he's jealous because he keeps comparing the situation to his own.

 

 

 

I'm just quoting him to be clear to what I'm responding to. No sarcasm in it.

 

You said that I wasn't reading it, so you would put it in bold and underline so I could see it. I thought that was sarcastic and obnoxious.

 

 

 

I don't think I'm being hypocritical, but I do appreciate your writing that both sides may have some validity. That's the beginning of a negotiated solution - something with mutual respect. I'm always open to something like that.

 

Thank you, after all we are all fans of the same team. Let's just put this entire thread behind us and move on, this is a dead issue considering url already said he the allegations were false. I am however worried about hester, cause he's been heard talking about holding out of some mandatory ota's which he can't afford to do seeing as how he may be a big part of our offense this year. If he wants a new deal, that's fine he has played exceptionally well and out of respect the bears should start negotiating, but to hold out with only 2 years in a rookie contract and this quick into negotiations is a little overboard. There's no reason he can't negotiate "behind" closed doors for now. The org. may feel more inclined to neg. with him if he acts in a respectible manner, seeing as how we let berrian go I see the org. really wanted to extend hester more than berrian which is a smart move.

[BearFan PHX]

Thank you, after all we are all fans of the same team. Let's just put this entire thread behind us and move on

 

That would be great.

 

Do you really think its possible? I would like to, so I promise to try.

 

Hopefully Jason will get on board too?

[jason]

That would be great.

 

Do you really think its possible? I would like to, so I promise to try.

 

Hopefully Jason will get on board too?

 

To be quite honest, I haven't wanted to get into this entire thing. Then I said I was done. But when I saw you get all pissy with it and start calling people names, as if you were someone better, it made me want to reply. Especially considering you are in the vast minority when it comes to the "are athletes being greedy" discussion.

 

I understand economics just fine. I understand the athletic side of it just fine. Etc., etc., etc. I'd say many here do. It's just a matter of disagreeing on whether or not the players are being greedy. I just think that the players get paid an obscene amount of money, and if they are going to ask to get their contracts restructured halfway through, then they should be equally willing to restructure and take a pay cut if they are sucking. For instance, Muhsin Muhammed would have been paid about 500K last year. But we all know that ain't gonna happen because, as you have said, they gotta get paid.

 

It's just too bad there can't be some sort of performance-based pay system. That would end this entire debate. Of course, that won't happen either, because the players would never agree to it. It would stop them from huge contracts and then

[BearFan PHX]

To be quite honest, I haven't wanted to get into this entire thing. Then I said I was done. But when I saw you get all pissy with it and start calling people names, as if you were someone better, it made me want to reply. Especially considering you are in the vast minority when it comes to the "are athletes being greedy" discussion.

 

So ARE you interested in proceeding with a handshake and some kind of mutual respect or not?

[BearFan PHX]

So ARE you interested in proceeding with a handshake and some kind of mutual respect or not?

 

I guess not...

[ASHKUM BEAR]

It's just too bad there can't be some sort of performance-based pay system. That would end this entire debate. Of course, that won't happen either, because the players would never agree to it. It would stop them from huge contracts and then

 

"The injury comes at a bad time for Benson, who finished the season with 674 rushing yards. Had he gained 27 more yards—or less than three extra yards per game this season—he would have triggered a conditional roster bonus in his contract in the amount of $1.73 million. It’s lost money now for the running back." Brad Briggs Sun Times

 

There is a lot of that written into contracts as Benson lost nearly two million dollars over 27 yards. I understand you being upset over greedy players as I am too for most part. I was extremely pissed with the supposed leak that Urlacher demanded to be traded or he will retire if the Bears didn't tear up his deal. Urlacher made a terrible decision when he signed his contract. The 9 year deal was lucractive at the time and would have carried him up to his retirement time. The contract is outdated as Urlacher is no longer making the money a player of his caliber should be making. He may feel disrespected by the Bears and the Bears should find a way to reward him. The thing I don't see the Bears doing is to tear up the original contract which is what Harris, Hester, and Urlacher are looking for. The Bears want to extend the original contracts and spread out the bonus money. Hopefully the Bears find a way to keep both parties happy before TC opens.

[jason]

I guess not...

 

Actually, I didn't have enough time to reply. I'm on the traveling for work this week, and don't have the computer time that I normally have.

 

We'll just agree to vehemently disagree.

[BearFan PHX]

Actually, I didn't have enough time to reply. I'm on the traveling for work this week, and don't have the computer time that I normally have.

 

We'll just agree to vehemently disagree.

 

OK, good. And if we see each other in the chat room, will we be friendly, or does this argument spill over into every other topic as well?

 

Personally, I'd prefer to compartmentalize it. I would like to think that the Jason in this thread is a different guy than the Jason in any other. If you're up for that, I would be too.

[nfoligno]

The only grudge Jason holds is against Angelo for drafting Benson

[BearFan PHX]

The only grudge Jason holds is against Angelo for drafting Benson

 

I'd love to hear him say that for himself, especially in time for the chat room this weekend. I have no desire to be dealing with this crap all during the draft too. It would be nice to shake hands and end this.

[nfoligno]

I can only tell you this. Jason and I (as well as most posters and I) have gotten into plenty of heated arguments, and at the end of the day, no grudge is carried. I have never seen Jason extend a grudge to posters, or carry over a grudge from one thread to another, unless they directly relate.

 

Now, if we take a RB in the 1st, all bets are off as he will be ticked, and may end up venting at whoever is closest

[jason]

I can only tell you this. Jason and I (as well as most posters and I) have gotten into plenty of heated arguments, and at the end of the day, no grudge is carried. I have never seen Jason extend a grudge to posters, or carry over a grudge from one thread to another, unless they directly relate.

 

Now, if we take a RB in the 1st, all bets are off as he will be ticked, and may end up venting at whoever is closest

 

Grudges? I hold many. Do they apply to this board? Absolutely not. That'd be silly, because this stuff is not that important considering our relative unimportance. Although, I would say that some conversations get more heated than others, and some posters are incredibly more sensitive than others. I don't hold a grudge against JA; I think he's done a fairly good job.

 

If the Bears do draft a RB in the first, and it would probably be Mendenhall, I'll tell you all that he's going to be a bust...just like I said when the Bears drafted Benson. What amazes me about the whole thing is that we have all watched the same games, and I'm baffled that people think drafting a RB in the first is a good idea when there are several other more pressing needs.