Pixote Posted September 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Well, here's a link to Tait's page on USA Today's salary database: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/footbal...amp;player=2240 He didn't have a large signing bonus and his cap totals reflect that. Here's a link to RMJs numbers and he didn't have a signing bonus at all: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/footbal...amp;player=2900 I think that you are operating under one main misconception. Not all money given to a player at the time of signing a contract is classified as a signing bonus. Angelo has been giving roster bonuses (meaning nonproratable) instead of signing bonuses (prorated) for awhile. That's the trickiest thing about the cap: getting the info right in spite of how stupidly the media screws up the reporting of the deal. Lloyd, you are the tops man, gotta give you the kudos, I do not know of any source that I would trust more than you when it comes to salary cap analysis. I think everyone on this forum from the old Bearstalk site would agree with me on this. I am anxious to see your new breakdown when you get around to publishing it. Great to have you as our in-house expert! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Lloyd, you are the tops man, gotta give you the kudos, I do not know of any source that I would trust more than you when it comes to salary cap analysis. I think everyone on this forum from the old Bearstalk site would agree with me on this. I am anxious to see your new breakdown when you get around to publishing it. Great to have you as our in-house expert! I'm interested to see the rebuttal to his last post. I've respected and believed Lloyd's work for several years now, and his reputation as a solid cap analyzer gets proven more and more as he posts numbers different than that of the media, and then the media eventually changes to what Lloyd posts. Until I hear him say, "You know what? You're right hoof...I missed that one"...I'll have to believe LT2_3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I'm interested to see the rebuttal to his last post. I've respected and believed Lloyd's work for several years now, and his reputation as a solid cap analyzer gets proven more and more as he posts numbers different than that of the media, and then the media eventually changes to what Lloyd posts. Until I hear him say, "You know what? You're right hoof...I missed that one"...I'll have to believe LT2_3. Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 I'm interested to see the rebuttal to his last post. I've respected and believed Lloyd's work for several years now, and his reputation as a solid cap analyzer gets proven more and more as he posts numbers different than that of the media, and then the media eventually changes to what Lloyd posts. Until I hear him say, "You know what? You're right hoof...I missed that one"...I'll have to believe LT2_3. NO question. LT2_3 has a reputation here and has consistently backed up his statements. Further, he's a class guy and knows football, not just the cap stuff (which he's excellent at.) He isn't some cunty newbie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaBear Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Lloyd, you are the tops man, gotta give you the kudos, I do not know of any source that I would trust more than you when it comes to salary cap analysis. I think everyone on this forum from the old Bearstalk site would agree with me on this. I am anxious to see your new breakdown when you get around to publishing it. Great to have you as our in-house expert! Gotta agree there Pix!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyBear Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Said it from the get go. Been a forum member for years and Lloyd has always been right on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Well, here's a link to Tait's page on USA Today's salary database: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/footbal...amp;player=2240 He didn't have a large signing bonus and his cap totals reflect that. Here's a link to RMJs numbers and he didn't have a signing bonus at all: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/footbal...amp;player=2900 I think that you are operating under one main misconception. Not all money given to a player at the time of signing a contract is classified as a signing bonus. Angelo has been giving roster bonuses (meaning nonproratable) instead of signing bonuses (prorated) for awhile. That's the trickiest thing about the cap: getting the info right in spite of how stupidly the media screws up the reporting of the deal. usatoday just clumps a persons signing bonus all into one year when they sign a contract. That should tell you how accurate their numbers are. example Urlacher's 04' numbers... $ 1,050,000 $ 13,000,000 $ 1,005,600 $ 15,055,600 ..........................^^^^^^^^^=entire bonus clumped into first year of deal=false Yeah, that's not even close. I'll admit he may be off with his proration of certain bonuses, which in fact would throw his numbers off quite a bit. However, those usatoday numbers are not accurate in the SB slot, and that throws off their calculations in other bonuses quite a bit too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradjock Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Lloyd, you are the tops man, gotta give you the kudos, I do not know of any source that I would trust more than you when it comes to salary cap analysis. I think everyone on this forum from the old Bearstalk site would agree with me on this. I am anxious to see your new breakdown when you get around to publishing it. Great to have you as our in-house expert! Agreed 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 usatoday just clumps a persons signing bonus all into one year when they sign a contract. That should tell you how accurate their numbers are. example Urlacher's 04' numbers... $ 1,050,000 $ 13,000,000 $ 1,005,600 $ 15,055,600 ..........................^^^^^^^^^=entire bonus clumped into first year of deal=false Yeah, that's not even close. I'll admit he may be off with his proration of certain bonuses, which in fact would throw his numbers off quite a bit. However, those usatoday numbers are not accurate in the SB slot, and that throws off their calculations in other bonuses quite a bit too. Dude - you have to understand what the numbers represent and how they have thier numbers formatted. So, to look at the numbers you are referring to, I'll explain what they mean. http://content.usatoday.com/sports/footbal...amp;player=2357 First off, the year you are referring to is 2003. The numbers as listed are really: Base paragraph 5 salary $1,050,000 - His team salary that he gets paid in game checks Sign Bonus $13,000,000 - the amount of signing bonus on his deal (sometimes shown, sometimes shown as 0 in years where the bonus was not paid) Other bonus $1,005,600 - all other bonuses such as roster or workout bonuses Total Salary - $15,055,600 - This is a total of ALL money paid to the player in that year. This has nothing to do with the cap. Cap Value - $5,150,242 - This is the players cap value for the year. So, Urlacher WAS paid a $13 mil signing bonus that year, and due to the amortization rules it prorated out at $1.857 million per year. However, USA Today isn't going to wipe your butt for you and you have to do some work to put the numbers into the context that you are presenting. Seriously, if you and your buddy want to be seriously good at figuring this stuff out, I'd recommend some accounting classes so you can get a feel for how numbers with the same label can be different in different situations. What? A credit is a debit and a debit is a credit? How can that be true? How can 2 things that are the opposite of each other be interchangable? So, the bottom line on this is that the USA salary database is an excellent resource for contract data because it comes straight from the NFLPA's numbers supplied to agents on contracts. The downside is that it's not formatted in a user friendly format and you actually have to interpret what the numbers mean player by player and transpose them into whatever format you are presenting. It's incredibly time consuming, but it provides the most accurate possible numbers when cross referenced by media reports. One more suggestion, you and/or your buddy should join the Yahoo group called AMCAPNFL. It's a bunch of amateur capologists that ask each other questions to get their totals right for their teams. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmCapNFL/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear trap Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Seriously, if you and your buddy want to be seriously good at figuring this stuff out, I'd recommend some accounting classes so you can get a feel for how numbers with the same label can be different in different situations.What? A credit is a debit and a debit is a credit? How can that be true? How can 2 things that are the opposite of each other be interchangable? One more suggestion, you and/or your buddy should join the Yahoo group called AMCAPNFL. It's a bunch of amateur capologists that ask each other questions to get their totals right for their teams. [ As said by Kelso from That 70's Show: "BURN!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Dude - you have to understand what the numbers represent and how they have thier numbers formatted. So, to look at the numbers you are referring to, I'll explain what they mean. http://content.usatoday.com/sports/footbal...amp;player=2357 First off, the year you are referring to is 2003. The numbers as listed are really: Base paragraph 5 salary $1,050,000 - His team salary that he gets paid in game checks Sign Bonus $13,000,000 - the amount of signing bonus on his deal (sometimes shown, sometimes shown as 0 in years where the bonus was not paid) Other bonus $1,005,600 - all other bonuses such as roster or workout bonuses Total Salary - $15,055,600 - This is a total of ALL money paid to the player in that year. This has nothing to do with the cap. Cap Value - $5,150,242 - This is the players cap value for the year. So, Urlacher WAS paid a $13 mil signing bonus that year, and due to the amortization rules it prorated out at $1.857 million per year. However, USA Today isn't going to wipe your butt for you and you have to do some work to put the numbers into the context that you are presenting. Seriously, if you and your buddy want to be seriously good at figuring this stuff out, I'd recommend some accounting classes so you can get a feel for how numbers with the same label can be different in different situations. What? A credit is a debit and a debit is a credit? How can that be true? How can 2 things that are the opposite of each other be interchangable? So, the bottom line on this is that the USA salary database is an excellent resource for contract data because it comes straight from the NFLPA's numbers supplied to agents on contracts. The downside is that it's not formatted in a user friendly format and you actually have to interpret what the numbers mean player by player and transpose them into whatever format you are presenting. It's incredibly time consuming, but it provides the most accurate possible numbers when cross referenced by media reports. One more suggestion, you and/or your buddy should join the Yahoo group called AMCAPNFL. It's a bunch of amateur capologists that ask each other questions to get their totals right for their teams. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmCapNFL/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Dude - you have to understand what the numbers represent and how they have thier numbers formatted. So, to look at the numbers you are referring to, I'll explain what they mean. http://content.usatoday.com/sports/footbal...amp;player=2357 First off, the year you are referring to is 2003. The numbers as listed are really: Base paragraph 5 salary $1,050,000 - His team salary that he gets paid in game checks Sign Bonus $13,000,000 - the amount of signing bonus on his deal (sometimes shown, sometimes shown as 0 in years where the bonus was not paid) Other bonus $1,005,600 - all other bonuses such as roster or workout bonuses Total Salary - $15,055,600 - This is a total of ALL money paid to the player in that year. This has nothing to do with the cap. Cap Value - $5,150,242 - This is the players cap value for the year. So, Urlacher WAS paid a $13 mil signing bonus that year, and due to the amortization rules it prorated out at $1.857 million per year. However, USA Today isn't going to wipe your butt for you and you have to do some work to put the numbers into the context that you are presenting. Seriously, if you and your buddy want to be seriously good at figuring this stuff out, I'd recommend some accounting classes so you can get a feel for how numbers with the same label can be different in different situations. What? A credit is a debit and a debit is a credit? How can that be true? How can 2 things that are the opposite of each other be interchangable? So, the bottom line on this is that the USA salary database is an excellent resource for contract data because it comes straight from the NFLPA's numbers supplied to agents on contracts. The downside is that it's not formatted in a user friendly format and you actually have to interpret what the numbers mean player by player and transpose them into whatever format you are presenting. It's incredibly time consuming, but it provides the most accurate possible numbers when cross referenced by media reports. One more suggestion, you and/or your buddy should join the Yahoo group called AMCAPNFL. It's a bunch of amateur capologists that ask each other questions to get their totals right for their teams. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmCapNFL/ This is why I said that not as simple as just getting "links" and whatnot. This is also why Hoof and "the guy" aren't working as highly paid cap analysts for NFL teams. Hoof, u sir just got pwned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 This is why I said that not as simple as just getting "links" and whatnot. This is also why Hoof and "the guy" aren't working as highly paid cap analysts for NFL teams. Hoof, u sir just got pwned. This is also why I qualified the entire "I could make better draft selections than the Bears" debate with the fact that I KNOW I couldn't manage the cap right now. I am not nearly versed in the details...besides, I'd just hire LT2 to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 This is also why I qualified the entire "I could make better draft selections than the Bears" debate LOL! Let's not go there again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 This is also why I qualified the entire "I could make better draft selections than the Bears" debate with the fact that I KNOW I couldn't manage the cap right now. I am not nearly versed in the details...besides, I'd just hire LT2 to do it. True dat. LT2 is money on the cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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