azbearsfan Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Pretty much agree here. I have said all along that I believe we have (minus FS) the talent on defense. I just can't get away from the fact that so littler personnel changed since we were a great defense leading up to the SB, while our coaching changed dramatically. Not just w/ Babich, but also our DL coach was changed. Since then, our DL has essentially tanked, and our defense as a whole has just been bad. If it were just Urlacher, or Wale (pair of older players) I could better understand the argument that we just got old, but our problems have been across the board. Vasher went from pro bowl talk to sucking. Urlacher fell off a cliff. Tillman, even when healthy, has appeared weaker. No pass rush and iffy run defense. While you and I never saw eye-to-eye on the debate of scheme, one area I think we agreed on was our coaching being a problem. Now, that coaches has changed, and the players can now only point fingers at themselves. That is why I want to see a very offense-based draft. As much as I question Turner, at the same time, I feel he has gotten FAR more production out of far less. But at the same time, IMHO, if we do not provide him better talent, I can easily see our offense taking a step backward this year. And you know what, I dont even know if I can say the position coaches were a problem as far as their drills and what they wanted the players to do. I think the real problem with the coaches was that they didn't hold the players accountable, especially in the press. In fact, that and player development were the two areas I wanted to see improvement. I saw enough of the player development (Orton, Beekman, Graham, Payne, Manning) but was disappointed in the accountability. And I dont think its Lovie's style to call people out like that. My only problem with Lovie has been that I thought he was coming in to be a tough love type of guy after Jauron's more "player's coach" approach. And I think he wanted to be, because if you remember when Lovie first came in, he tried to impliment tough off season stuff and mini camps but people started pulling their hammys especially Url. Then Url started groaning about it. So once that stuff gets started you either have to start making personnel changes or the coach goes (for example Coughlin, the team started going up once they started getting rid of some of the vets). The fans had Url's back, he was one of the best defenders in the league at that point, so clearly he wasn't going anywhere. I think Lovie changed his approach for survival's sake. Now he is back to toughening it up, probably knowing his butt is on the line. So we will see. Again, I think the vets have to know that some of their jobs are hitched to Lovie doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I could be wrong, but I think he sat out mini-camps, rather than training camp. I believe both he and Briggs (same agent) sat out mini-camp. Seriously, I know many loved TJ. I think he can be a solid RB too, but the guy has been a bit of a jerk since being in the NFL. He was a top 10 pick bust for Az. I could be wrong, but I believe Benson actually showed more for Chicago than TJ did for Az. He then moves on to TB, where he yet again can't win the starting job. (Michael Pitman held him back at Az & TB) We take a flyer on him, signing him to a contract which was modest for FA, but not a bad size for a two time bust. He does decent his first year, but also missed a pair of games w/ injury (a prior red flag). He doesn't breakout for the team though, and does little to kill concerns of health, and thus the bears draft Benson. Almost immediately, there was a rift between Benson and TJ, not to mention Benson and TJ's buddies. It got even worse as TJ had a big year, and yet the team still had their big investment in Benson. Then TJ begins crying about his deal, and wants either new money or a trade. Holds out mini camp, and finally agrees to play on the condition the team will trade him after the season, which happens. But the drama continues for TJ. Only two seasons after NYJ trade for him and give him a contract that makes him happy, TJ is now demanding yet another new deal, and skipping the teams conditioning program. All I have to say is, I am glad we have Forte now. Two quick things: 1) I don't know about you, but I knew that the Bears didn't need to draft a RB. The year you call "decent" showed much more than enough to know that he was capable of being a very good #1 RB. 2) Don't act like Forte won't be crying for a new deal in the very near future. If he doesn't, I'll be shocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Agreed...even Walter did. But, I think you get my point. I have no fond memory of Benson. Anyway... In all fairness to Mike Brown, what control does he have over Babich? He can only do so much. Babich was virtually our strongest oppenent all year. It's all speculation, and in all honesty, it's going nowhere. But maybe Benson deserved it? Maybe he banged Brown's sister and slapped his mother? Who knows? It happened, and stuff usually happens for a reason. I honestly feel that if Benson came in with the right attitude, it would not have happneded. Or maybe it would have. For a guy that was touted as an iron horse, he sure seemed at lot more injury prone. Sometimes justice is served in odd fashion. From the soap beating in "Full Metal Jacket" to the broken jaw at the shooting range...tight knit groups tend to handle their own issues. Look, I loved Benson when we got him. I liked TJ, but didn't see him as a long term kick ass guy. I was excited to get a potential kick ass long term RB. Benson immediately got on the wrong foot and held out. Then he got hurt. Then he preformed decently, but not nearly as good as Jones. Then when he was given the starter role, he didn't do that well..and I think got hurt again. Then the legal troubles came... He simply did not work out for us. And all through that, there's really nothing I take as a great memory of Benson unlike guys like Rosie Colvin, who got theirs on a different team. IMO, I think he committed fraud on the team and fans, and when we play him, I hope we get some of our hopes and dreams back that he took from us as being a #1 bust pick. Bottom line, he's a Bengal, not a Bear. IMO, never was. Well tons of guys lose the ball in the Super Bowl. And you know, I used to think that Mike Brown was this great leader too. But some things are starting to change that for me. First is the defenses lackadasical showing last year down the stretch with the playoffs on the line. There is no way a great leader lets his squad come out like that. Ed Reed, Ronnie Lott, Troy P, dont let their squads do that crap. Second, I dont think a great leader tries to beat the crap out of the #1 tailback in a half pads drill. To me that is playing politics so your buddy can have his job back, even though the head coach demoted him for a reason. So not only does that sort of crap hurt the running back it also can undermine the coaches' authority. Did Fred Miller deserve to have his jaw broken by our fearless Oline leader? This is the pros not high school. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Two quick things: 1) I don't know about you, but I knew that the Bears didn't need to draft a RB. The year you call "decent" showed much more than enough to know that he was capable of being a very good #1 RB. 2) Don't act like Forte won't be crying for a new deal in the very near future. If he doesn't, I'll be shocked. He might, but I doubt he doesn't show up for stuff while he asks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradjock Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 I'm just hoping Benson is walking near wherever Donte Stallworth is driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Two quick things: 1) I don't know about you, but I knew that the Bears didn't need to draft a RB. The year you call "decent" showed much more than enough to know that he was capable of being a very good #1 RB. I remember well your position. But (a) injuries over his career were an issue, thus wondering if he could be relied on as an every down, every game RB and ( while he looked good, or even potentially very good, at the same time, the belief (however wrong) was Benson was a "special" RB. 2) Don't act like Forte won't be crying for a new deal in the very near future. If he doesn't, I'll be shocked. One, I do not believe he would be "crying" for a new deal. Would he seek a new deal. Most likely. At the same time, I am not sure it is a given he would create such a stir as TJ has done over the years, nor do I think it a sure thing he would be the sort of demand a new deal two years after getting his new deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 I disagree some on the position coaches. Just reading the stuff our players are saying about Marinelli, while making Marinelli look good, also paints a bit of a negative picture on our past DL coach. They talk about how much he is making them watch film, which implies the prior OL coach did not. They talk further about how much he does w/ them while watching film, making more of a study than just a viewing, again, implying that was not the case before. Finally, several players have made similar comments about how, when Marinelli tells them what to do, he also does a good job of explaining why, thus doing a better job of gettting players to buy into the scheme/moves. Again, all this implies things being done now that were not before. I understand it can not all be put on the position coaches. At the same time, if we are going to hold people accountable, I do not see how we can avoid holding the position coaches accountable when it simply does not appear they are doing their job. I would also point to DM as an example. DM seemed like a player destined to be out of the NFL. He simply didn't show much development. By all accounts, Lovie stepped in an personally began to work w/ DM, and suddenly he starts to develop. Should it not be questioned why our actual DB coach was incapable of producing such results? As for Lovie's style, I don't know. I agree he initially seemed to want a tougher camp, but injuries set us back. At the same time, I question the need to alter the camp, and feel it was more of a conditioning issue than simply the tough camp. We dealt w/ the conditioning issue when we added Rusty, thus I question if we ever needed to soften camp. Further, I would argue against the need for extremes. Lovie may have felt the need to tone down camp, but did he need to make it so dang soft? And not just camp, but throughout the year as veterans seemed to always be getting days off during the week, regardless of how well they played in games. And you know what, I dont even know if I can say the position coaches were a problem as far as their drills and what they wanted the players to do. I think the real problem with the coaches was that they didn't hold the players accountable, especially in the press. In fact, that and player development were the two areas I wanted to see improvement. I saw enough of the player development (Orton, Beekman, Graham, Payne, Manning) but was disappointed in the accountability. And I dont think its Lovie's style to call people out like that. My only problem with Lovie has been that I thought he was coming in to be a tough love type of guy after Jauron's more "player's coach" approach. And I think he wanted to be, because if you remember when Lovie first came in, he tried to impliment tough off season stuff and mini camps but people started pulling their hammys especially Url. Then Url started groaning about it. So once that stuff gets started you either have to start making personnel changes or the coach goes (for example Coughlin, the team started going up once they started getting rid of some of the vets). The fans had Url's back, he was one of the best defenders in the league at that point, so clearly he wasn't going anywhere. I think Lovie changed his approach for survival's sake. Now he is back to toughening it up, probably knowing his butt is on the line. So we will see. Again, I think the vets have to know that some of their jobs are hitched to Lovie doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 I disagree some on the position coaches. Just reading the stuff our players are saying about Marinelli, while making Marinelli look good, also paints a bit of a negative picture on our past DL coach. They talk about how much he is making them watch film, which implies the prior OL coach did not. They talk further about how much he does w/ them while watching film, making more of a study than just a viewing, again, implying that was not the case before. Finally, several players have made similar comments about how, when Marinelli tells them what to do, he also does a good job of explaining why, thus doing a better job of gettting players to buy into the scheme/moves. Again, all this implies things being done now that were not before. I understand it can not all be put on the position coaches. At the same time, if we are going to hold people accountable, I do not see how we can avoid holding the position coaches accountable when it simply does not appear they are doing their job. I would also point to DM as an example. DM seemed like a player destined to be out of the NFL. He simply didn't show much development. By all accounts, Lovie stepped in an personally began to work w/ DM, and suddenly he starts to develop. Should it not be questioned why our actual DB coach was incapable of producing such results? As for Lovie's style, I don't know. I agree he initially seemed to want a tougher camp, but injuries set us back. At the same time, I question the need to alter the camp, and feel it was more of a conditioning issue than simply the tough camp. We dealt w/ the conditioning issue when we added Rusty, thus I question if we ever needed to soften camp. Further, I would argue against the need for extremes. Lovie may have felt the need to tone down camp, but did he need to make it so dang soft? And not just camp, but throughout the year as veterans seemed to always be getting days off during the week, regardless of how well they played in games. Well that is sort of what I was saying. The real way Marinelli is a great hire is because he can take a veteran group and get them to buy into what he is doing. I think that is tougher for a college coach with a group of vets and I think that it didn't happen for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 I feel Benson got screwed over by the Bears and fans, but it came down to his holding out and comments about being able to start and succeed right off the bat. Benson's comments were not meant to belittle TJ, but to show a positive attitude and enthuse the fans. It quickly got spun in the media and made him look really arogant. The vet Bears were not impressed at all especially seeing a young brat holding out for more $$ than most of them were making and him saying he can make this league look easy. They wanted to show him how easy the NFL was by knocking him around in practice. This seperated Benson from the team and when your team/fans are against you it doesn't matter how hard you try, you can't change their first impression. I'm glad Benson is finding success in Cincy b/c the players/fans are making him feel like part of the team and giving him a little thing called hope. Benson will probably always hate CHI from now on, but the feelings are the same back to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkBomber Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 I feel Benson got screwed over by the Bears and fans, but it came down to his holding out and comments about being able to start and succeed right off the bat. Benson's comments were not meant to belittle TJ, but to show a positive attitude and enthuse the fans. It quickly got spun in the media and made him look really arogant. The vet Bears were not impressed at all especially seeing a young brat holding out for more $$ than most of them were making and him saying he can make this league look easy. They wanted to show him how easy the NFL was by knocking him around in practice. This seperated Benson from the team and when your team/fans are against you it doesn't matter how hard you try, you can't change their first impression. I'm glad Benson is finding success in Cincy b/c the players/fans are making him feel like part of the team and giving him a little thing called hope. Benson will probably always hate CHI from now on, but the feelings are the same back to him. no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 I just disagree.... Benson made his bed and he had to sleep in it. I contend the team and the fans were the ones that got screwed. I feel Benson got screwed over by the Bears and fans, but it came down to his holding out and comments about being able to start and succeed right off the bat. Benson's comments were not meant to belittle TJ, but to show a positive attitude and enthuse the fans. It quickly got spun in the media and made him look really arogant. The vet Bears were not impressed at all especially seeing a young brat holding out for more $$ than most of them were making and him saying he can make this league look easy. They wanted to show him how easy the NFL was by knocking him around in practice. This seperated Benson from the team and when your team/fans are against you it doesn't matter how hard you try, you can't change their first impression. I'm glad Benson is finding success in Cincy b/c the players/fans are making him feel like part of the team and giving him a little thing called hope. Benson will probably always hate CHI from now on, but the feelings are the same back to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daventry Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Benson was no doubt a bit of a turd, but then we have some players on the current Bears team who are regarded quite highly by most Bears fans who are equal turds.... IMO Benson came in, as some have pointed out, in an arrogant manner and drew the ire of some of the veteran players. TJ was loved by all, and many on the team likely did not agree with the pick of CB automatically, which I did not as well as why pick a RB with the 4th pick in the 1st round if you are not planning to let go of your starting RB? This resulted in him not being respected and getting verbal abuse as well as possibly Olinemen letting players go so that they could have a pop, as well as Defensive players having a pop in practice resulting in injuries. Benson then went out and acted like an idiot in the off season to the point where the Bears were almost forced to let him go. He could have been at least an above average back, but the odds were against him in Chicago, and he was an idiot to boot IMO. Benson might grow up and prove to be a decent RB...in the end he dug his own grave in Chicago and deserves what he got. The NFL is not kindergarten... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I hope we open the year in Cincy so we get to rip this guy to shreds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 We open in Green Bay on Sunday Night.... But I stille agerly await facing them! I hope we open the year in Cincy so we get to rip this guy to shreds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradjock Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I feel Benson got screwed over by the Bears and fans, but it came down to his holding out and comments about being able to start and succeed right off the bat. Benson's comments were not meant to belittle TJ, but to show a positive attitude and enthuse the fans. It quickly got spun in the media and made him look really arogant. The vet Bears were not impressed at all especially seeing a young brat holding out for more $$ than most of them were making and him saying he can make this league look easy. They wanted to show him how easy the NFL was by knocking him around in practice. This seperated Benson from the team and when your team/fans are against you it doesn't matter how hard you try, you can't change their first impression. I'm glad Benson is finding success in Cincy b/c the players/fans are making him feel like part of the team and giving him a little thing called hope. Benson will probably always hate CHI from now on, but the feelings are the same back to him. Huh???? Ok, the hold outs & bitching is one thing, but you've ignored: 1. His rookie year when he was cleared to play but refused citing that he had his future to worry about. 2. Taking himself out of the Super Bowl & not returning (it was never offiical, but as per the SCORE he could have returned but didn't) 3. After TJ was gone, bitching to the media that his teammates had been out to get him. 4. Stating he did the best he could with the offensive line he had (in other words he threw them under the bus.) 5. Getting arrested twice in the same month. Not to mention his 3.0 ypc average, his stone-like hands, or the fact he never knew the play-book. I don't care about what happened when he was a rookie. The fact he continued to suck while be an ass-bad is what bothered me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Thanks you for the list! I had forgotten about 1 and 2! Goodbye and good riddance! Huh???? Ok, the hold outs & bitching is one thing, but you've ignored: 1. His rookie year when he was cleared to play but refused citing that he had his future to worry about. 2. Taking himself out of the Super Bowl & not returning (it was never offiical, but as per the SCORE he could have returned but didn't) 3. After TJ was gone, bitching to the media that his teammates had been out to get him. 4. Stating he did the best he could with the offensive line he had (in other words he threw them under the bus.) 5. Getting arrested twice in the same month. Not to mention his 3.0 ypc average, his stone-like hands, or the fact he never knew the play-book. I don't care about what happened when he was a rookie. The fact he continued to suck while be an ass-bad is what bothered me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 We open in Green Bay on Sunday Night.... But I stille agerly await facing them! I know...that statement was more out of anxiety just because I'm tired of hearing about this asswipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Huh???? Ok, the hold outs & bitching is one thing, but you've ignored: 1. His rookie year when he was cleared to play but refused citing that he had his future to worry about. 2. Taking himself out of the Super Bowl & not returning (it was never offiical, but as per the SCORE he could have returned but didn't) 3. After TJ was gone, bitching to the media that his teammates had been out to get him. 4. Stating he did the best he could with the offensive line he had (in other words he threw them under the bus.) 5. Getting arrested twice in the same month. Not to mention his 3.0 ypc average, his stone-like hands, or the fact he never knew the play-book. I don't care about what happened when he was a rookie. The fact he continued to suck while be an ass-bad is what bothered me. I'm just offering Benson a little bit of justice. The thread was started b/c Benson vented to the media about his bad experience in CHI. I hold Benson totally responsible b/c it was his actions that brought everything on. But IMO, if he didn't hold out one bit and JA had him signed like a lot of his other 1st RDers he still may be here. That action was the first domino that led to all the other faults. The guy was a loner, he would be by himself out and about during TC and this was after he was on the team for 3 yrs. I just feel that the leadership on this team black flagged him and no one wanted to break that code. Im really thankful now he's gone b/c that led us to Forte, but I would like to see Benson have some success in the league to show our scouting staff ain't all that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Huh???? Ok, the hold outs & bitching is one thing, but you've ignored: 1. His rookie year when he was cleared to play but refused citing that he had his future to worry about. 2. Taking himself out of the Super Bowl & not returning (it was never offiical, but as per the SCORE he could have returned but didn't) 3. After TJ was gone, bitching to the media that his teammates had been out to get him. 4. Stating he did the best he could with the offensive line he had (in other words he threw them under the bus.) 5. Getting arrested twice in the same month. Not to mention his 3.0 ypc average, his stone-like hands, or the fact he never knew the play-book. I don't care about what happened when he was a rookie. The fact he continued to suck while be an ass-bad is what bothered me. doubled up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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