madlithuanian Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 http://www.fireloviesmith.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 It's not Lovie's fault we signed Pace and Omiyale, and drafted guys like Harrison, Gilbert, and Igelsias, and traded for a guy like Adams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Agreed. But it is his fault how a lot of out team is being/ not being used... Jerry deals the hand. Smith has to play it. At the moment, you could say both dealer and player leave something to be desired... It's not Lovie's fault we signed Pace and Omiyale, and drafted guys like Harrison, Gilbert, and Igelsias, and traded for a guy like Adams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear trap Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 It's not Lovie's fault we signed Pace and Omiyale, and drafted guys like Harrison, Gilbert, and Igelsias, and traded for a guy like Adams. First off... B.S. you're actually gonna sit here and tell me that lovie has no input or say in who they sign or draft? B.S.! We all know that during the combine they all sit in the room and talk about who to draft or even sign for that matter. To defend lovie by saying it's not his fault is B.S. He offers his input and I'm sure JA listens on some occasions and not on others, but by far lovie is also at fault. Now, I'm not jumping on the fire lovie band wagon just yet. I'll give him to the end of this season before I make that decision. That gives him numerous games to pull his head from his butt and end the ominyale experiment. If this team is less than 9-7 which is what we finished last year then I'm all for throwing him and his "buddies" marinelli and babich out the door and make a run for a coach who can get the defense back to classic smack mouth bear football... COWHER! But if lovie finishes better than 9-7 and makes the playoffs he'll earn my nod for another year. No Playoffs... No love for lovie! Three years w/o a playoff appearance is unacceptable and tells me that this team is heading the wrong direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 You know what. I think you're right! At first, I agreed with Brian that it wasn't Smith's fault those guys were picked up. While maybe it's not 50/50, he does get some blame. Some percentage. He has to have some input as the highest paid coach in the NFL. ...and your theory of letting him go based on the various records is a solid one. Smith shouldn't be fired mid-season. I think he's at least earned that. But I agree, if we go 8-8 or worse...or miss the playoffs at 9-7, he should be gone. I honestly don't think he will be, even if we drop 10 in a row. But he should be. I just think we'll see a new OC, maybe DC...and Smith put on the seat seriously. Bears won't eat 11Mil. But they might eat 5.5. Maybe... First off... B.S. you're actually gonna sit here and tell me that lovie has no input or say in who they sign or draft? B.S.! We all know that during the combine they all sit in the room and talk about who to draft or even sign for that matter. To defend lovie by saying it's not his fault is B.S. He offers his input and I'm sure JA listens on some occasions and not on others, but by far lovie is also at fault. Now, I'm not jumping on the fire lovie band wagon just yet. I'll give him to the end of this season before I make that decision. That gives him numerous games to pull his head from his butt and end the ominyale experiment. If this team is less than 9-7 which is what we finished last year then I'm all for throwing him and his "buddies" marinelli and babich out the door and make a run for a coach who can get the defense back to classic smack mouth bear football... COWHER! But if lovie finishes better than 9-7 and makes the playoffs he'll earn my nod for another year. No Playoffs... No love for lovie! Three years w/o a playoff appearance is unacceptable and tells me that this team is heading the wrong direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connorbear Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 You know what. I think you're right! At first, I agreed with Brian that it wasn't Smith's fault those guys were picked up. While maybe it's not 50/50, he does get some blame. Some percentage. He has to have some input as the highest paid coach in the NFL. ...and your theory of letting him go based on the various records is a solid one. Smith shouldn't be fired mid-season. I think he's at least earned that. But I agree, if we go 8-8 or worse...or miss the playoffs at 9-7, he should be gone. I honestly don't think he will be, even if we drop 10 in a row. But he should be. I just think we'll see a new OC, maybe DC...and Smith put on the seat seriously. Bears won't eat 11Mil. But they might eat 5.5. Maybe... The reality is he will not be fired at the end of the yr as they are not going to eat 11 million. Our hope can be that they replace Turner and hire a real DC (someone with a different philosophy than Lovie). Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I could see Martz coming in at OC... Not sure about DC. Maybe Marinelli... I'd rather see different, but I think as long as Smith's in charge in any capacity, we're going to see a student of the Tampa 2 somehow... The reality is he will not be fired at the end of the yr as they are not going to eat 11 million. Our hope can be that they replace Turner and hire a real DC (someone with a different philosophy than Lovie). Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 The reality is he will not be fired at the end of the yr as they are not going to eat 11 million. Our hope can be that they replace Turner and hire a real DC (someone with a different philosophy than Lovie). Peace Exactly. And yeah, Lovie does have some say. But it's ultimately JA who makes the call. Therefore, maybe it's the scouts who need to get fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 While I am not going to argue on the scouts, I do think it important to point out a couple things. One. Lovie has a lot more say than you give him credit for. Sure, it is ultimately the decision of the GM, but when you say it isn't Lovie's fault that we add this player or that, I think that is simply wrong. Two. chicken and eggs argument. Is the problem that the players Angelo adds are w/o talent, or is the problem that our coaching staff is simply inable to develop and utilize that talent. This year, I think it kind of looks bad for Lovie. While there are many reasons for Orton to be looking better in Denver, does anyone think we would have ever seen that w/ Lovie/Turner? If Lovie or Turner were in Denver, and all other things equal, I doubt Orton would look so good. Ditto w/ Benson, who didn't just tear us up, but has looked pretty damn good all year. And then there is our WRs. While I am not specifically calling out Lovie here, but I would make the point that Hester, Bennett and a rookie are looking pretty good. Yea, I get that Cutler is a huge aspect of that, but it does sort of hurt the argument that Angelo hasn't added talent. Frankly, I always bashed Angelo, but more and more I have come to believe that our problem is not nearly as much Angelo and our talent so much as our coaching staffs inability to develop and best utilize such talent. Exactly. And yeah, Lovie does have some say. But it's ultimately JA who makes the call. Therefore, maybe it's the scouts who need to get fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brletich Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Frankly, I always bashed Angelo, but more and more I have come to believe that our problem is not nearly as much Angelo and our talent so much as our coaching staffs inability to develop and best utilize such talent. One thing I will blame Angelo for is his insistence of adding OL via FA instead of building through the draft. His philosophy of finding cheap parts via the scrap heap has not workwed, and it has put us at least 3 years away from having a good young OL, maybe 4 or 5 based on the fact that we have zero 1st day picks this coming draft. That is all on Angelo and his philosophy, and it is a real big reason for our team's current struggles. I know I am preaching to the choir with you on the OL, but Angelo deserves more heat than he has been getting lately for that reason alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chitownhustla Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 While I am not going to argue on the scouts, I do think it important to point out a couple things. One. Lovie has a lot more say than you give him credit for. Sure, it is ultimately the decision of the GM, but when you say it isn't Lovie's fault that we add this player or that, I think that is simply wrong. Two. chicken and eggs argument. Is the problem that the players Angelo adds are w/o talent, or is the problem that our coaching staff is simply inable to develop and utilize that talent. This year, I think it kind of looks bad for Lovie. While there are many reasons for Orton to be looking better in Denver, does anyone think we would have ever seen that w/ Lovie/Turner? If Lovie or Turner were in Denver, and all other things equal, I doubt Orton would look so good. Ditto w/ Benson, who didn't just tear us up, but has looked pretty damn good all year. And then there is our WRs. While I am not specifically calling out Lovie here, but I would make the point that Hester, Bennett and a rookie are looking pretty good. Yea, I get that Cutler is a huge aspect of that, but it does sort of hurt the argument that Angelo hasn't added talent. Frankly, I always bashed Angelo, but more and more I have come to believe that our problem is not nearly as much Angelo and our talent so much as our coaching staffs inability to develop and best utilize such talent. i agree but would say Benson needed to get slapped to wake up, he just didnt get "it" here. by the bears releasing him, he woke up cuz his paychecks stopped coming any qb would look good with the time orton is getting and wr's making plays on his balls turners play calling is horrid and i dont think the Lovie HC and DC thing is working. with what you said about best utilize such talent. cutler roll out?? the guy is running for his life anyways. could help the shit oline we have, give him more time to set play up wolfe why r we running him up the middle?????? olsen is he still alive???????? why have we not gone deep with hester once a qt???????????? he have a qb with a huge arm get him the ball..could open the run why have we not ran hester and knox on flys every freakin play, they r the 2 fastest player on the field every game???? why not try hester in the wildcat with forte in backfield??? im not a fan but freak lets try it.....lets try something our run game has been horrid why is that piece of shit still playing LG??????????????????? r u kidding me Forte out of the backfield worked great last year in the passing attack, where is he this year????? LG???????????????????? r u kidding me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Oh, don't get me wrong. I am not saying I agree with everything Angelo has done. Not by any stretch. Simply put, I just do not think he truly values the OL. If he valued the OL half as much as I believe he does the DL, good things could happen. No, my point is not to totally remove blame from Angelo, but at the same time, I just more often question if we totally lack talent, or simply lack coaching to develop and utilize such talent. One thing I will blame Angelo for is his insistence of adding OL via FA instead of building through the draft. His philosophy of finding cheap parts via the scrap heap has not workwed, and it has put us at least 3 years away from having a good young OL, maybe 4 or 5 based on the fact that we have zero 1st day picks this coming draft. That is all on Angelo and his philosophy, and it is a real big reason for our team's current struggles. I know I am preaching to the choir with you on the OL, but Angelo deserves more heat than he has been getting lately for that reason alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Benson needed to get slapped to wake up, he just didnt get "it" here. by the bears releasing him, he woke up cuz his paychecks stopped coming There were a lot of issues there. Honestly, I don't think it was nearly as much Benson needing a slap or wakeup so much as Benson simply needing to be in a place where he was liked, or at least not hated:) Benson simply seems mentally (and emotionally) soft. Thus, regardless how true it was, if Benson is in a situation where he feels isolated and dislikes, he simply is not a person who will do well. At the same time, the coaches I think have more responsibility. I have often said I think our staff allows the players to run the asylum a bit too much. I personally go back and forth on this, but at some point, can the coach not bring in some of the team leaders and tell them to back off? I don't know. But I just do not feel Lovie did a whole lot to help. Also, while all the above has made a difference, so has the system. Benson is in a very different system, but it is one that fits his style. Our system was simply not a good fit for a power runner like Benson. any qb would look good with the time orton is getting and wr's making plays on his balls You don't have to mention OL to me. But even if we had Denver's OL and WRs, I would argue we would not see the same results. It is more than just the talent on the field. In Denver, there is a system, and it just happens to be a system Orton fits very well. Even if we had all other parts equal, I do not think we would see the same results. turners play calling is horrid and i dont think the Lovie HC and DC thing is working. I defended Turner early on, and while I do not think he is as bad as some think, I also do not think he has done a lot positive either. At the same time, our defense is more disappointing to me. with what you said about best utilize such talent cutler roll out?? the guy is running for his life anyways. could help the shit oline we have, give him more time to set play up No argument what so ever. This was a play he did VERY well in Denver, and is one many teams use to help protect against the rush. wolfe why r we running him up the middle?????? Honestly, I think some make too big a deal out of this. No, I do not want Wolfe up the middle on 3rd and 1, but I have no problem w/ Wolfe getting a shot inside here and there. I saw him go up the middle the other week, and frankly, he showed more inside running ability than I have seen from Forte this year. If Wolfe can't handle an inside run, than I am not sure I want him on the team. Again, that doesn't mean I want him in the power set, but I don't want to become predictable by only running him outside. olsen is he still alive???????? How is this Turner's fault? If anything, I at times feel we are forcing it to him. Two games ago, he had 4 or 5 catches, but led the team in targets. We have used Olsen all over the place. Problem is, Olsen has simply not stepped up as most expected. why have we not gone deep with hester once a qt???????????? he have a qb with a huge arm get him the ball..could open the run You sure about that. I think we have gone up top w/ Hester. But the reason we have not gone deep w/ Hester often, or anyone, is simply because when your OL protects like ours does, your QB needs to get rid of the ball in about 3 steps, and that is not often enough to go deep. why have we not ran hester and knox on flys every freakin play, they r the 2 fastest player on the field every game???? See above. Either we pass blind, w/ no idea of coverage because we are throwing it 50 yards downfield when the WR is still around the 15, or Cutler gets lit up holding the ball too long. Hey, I want to utilize Cutler's arm too, but with our OL, every tick Cutler has to hold the ball increases his chance of getting killed. why not try hester in the wildcat with forte in backfield??? im not a fan but freak lets try it.....lets try something our run game has been horrid We have tried the wildcat, but honestly, we just don't have the players to run it. For us, we might be able to try a trick play here or there, but we can't do this much. We just don't have the bevy of options or ability to do it. I watching Miami and was simply amazed how well they ran this system, but they have two very good RBs in Brown and Williams, as well as solid FBs. Also, I think Miami has a pretty decent OL, and the wildcat is tough to run w/o good OL play. why is that piece of shit still playing LG??????????????????? r u kidding me I've only been saying that since camp, when he was given the job. Still curious who is making the call on this one. Forte out of the backfield worked great last year in the passing attack, where is he this year????? Forte looked great in many areas last year he has simply sucked this year. Honestly, his vision and blocking have been so weak, I have wondered if he needed contacts. Not saying that is the case, but making the point of how poor his play has been. But are you blaming this on Turner? Maybe, but if you are going to blame Turner for Forte's struggles, then don't you have to credit Turner for Forte having a rookie year like he did? I am by no way absolving Turner. There are things, some of which you mention, I just do not understand why we have not seen, or seen more often. But on offense, I just can't help but to look at the OL. When your OL is as bad as ours is, honestly, there is only so much an OC can do. On defense, that is where I really call out coaching. We run a system based on pass rush from the front four, and yet even when we were getting pressure, we were blitzing a ton. We simply do not have the players to run Lovie's system, and yet it doesn't matter as we continue to do so. IMHO, that is because that system is the only thing Lovie knows. We all want Lovie to change systems, but has anyone considered that Lovie simply doesn't know another system, or not well enough to coach it. When was the last time he was in a non-cover two system? That is one reason why I liked Rivera. He had been exposed to many systems, and added another when he left us and went to a 3-4. That means if something isn't working, you are in a better position to adjust. But w/ Lovie, or when we had Babich, the knowledge was more limited, and the ability to change the scheme may simply not be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'TD' Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Benson needed to get slapped to wake up, he just didnt get "it" here. by the bears releasing him, he woke up cuz his paychecks stopped coming There were a lot of issues there. Honestly, I don't think it was nearly as much Benson needing a slap or wakeup so much as Benson simply needing to be in a place where he was liked, or at least not hated:) Benson simply seems mentally (and emotionally) soft. Thus, regardless how true it was, if Benson is in a situation where he feels isolated and dislikes, he simply is not a person who will do well. I agree he didn't need the wake up. I honestly think it was still the line then. I think forte benifitted from a some what changed line. Everyone had a hard time running behind it that year, like this year, and he would have gotten liked and wanted here when he had a fair chance to show it on the field, and i agree on him being fragile emotionally, eventually. I really think if it wasn't for Tank Johnson ad his problems, then Benson would still be here. It was just a time when NFL players were messin up too much including our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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butkusrules Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 It's not Lovie's fault we signed Pace and Omiyale, and drafted guys like Harrison, Gilbert, and Igelsias, and traded for a guy like Adams. No but he is responsible for his coordinators. Neither the offense or the defense has been run correctly or produced results in the last 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Honestly, I can not agree w/ all this. While I am not going to say our OL was great, I would say that our OL when Benson was here was better than it is today, and actually pretty good for a while. Kreutz was still pro bowl. Ruben Brown had not yet begun to suffer the injuries. Tait was still solid. The OL Benson ran behind was not nearly as bad as we have had the last two years. Also, regardless of the OL, Benson simply is a totally different player today than he was w/ us. Just look at him. By all reports, the guy is fairly ripped now, as opposed to when he was here, and he appeared to even have some baby fat. His workout habbits today are far superior to what they were w/ us. He is far more in condition, and frankly, has shown more burst and speed than he ever did w/ us. Back to the OL though. Lets not pretend our OL was any good last year. Better than this year? Sure. But last year's OL was pretty bad, but we had a RB in Forte that could simply do more w/ less. If Benson were our starter last year, I do not believe he would have done well, and would not have won the respect and love of his fellow teamates. Thus he would still be miserable, and the circle would continue. Simply put, he was miserable w/ us, and is happy w/ Cincy. When you are happy at your job and enjoy what you are doing, your productivity simply goes up. Benson was never happy w/ the Bears. I would also point out that we just didn't/don't run a blocking scheme that was right for Benson. Our scheme is better designed for a RB like TJ or Forte, but not so much for a pure downhill runner like Benson. I blame many for Benson's failure w/ the bears, and w/o question that included Benson. I think our staff is to blame as well, and further, I blame our players and leadership (or lack thereof). It is typical to have a veteran in place, yet to draft a high draft pick. Usually what you read about is the veterans taking the rook under the wing and helping him, but by all accounts, it seemed like the opposite happened. Frankly, I put a lot of it on TJ. While many veterans choose to help young players and let the chips fall where they may, I don't think TJ has ever been that sort. In Az, I don't think he was ever tight w/ the other RBs, and viewed them closer to being an enemy than teamate. While w/ the Bears, there is little question he and Benson always had a cold relationship. Now in NY, you read little by way of TJ being a player who tries to help the other RBs and young guys. He doesn't simply try to elevate himself through his play, but also by stepping on the competition. I agree he didn't need the wake up. I honestly think it was still the line then. I think forte benifitted from a some what changed line. Everyone had a hard time running behind it that year, like this year, and he would have gotten liked and wanted here when he had a fair chance to show it on the field, and i agree on him being fragile emotionally, eventually. I really think if it wasn't for Tank Johnson ad his problems, then Benson would still be here. It was just a time when NFL players were messin up too much including our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Frankly, you can look past two years. Shea was Lovie's pick by all reports, and he was an utter failure. The only coordinator that saw success was Rivera, and every report shows Rivera was essentially forced on Lovie, and he let him go as soon as possible, promoting his friend, who bombed. Beyond just the coordinators, Lovie was also responsible for the assistants we have brought in, and our firing basically everyone on defense last year has to be an indictment on Lovie. http://www.fireloviesmith.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defiantgiant Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Frankly, you can look past two years. Shea was Lovie's pick by all reports, and he was an utter failure. The only coordinator that saw success was Rivera, and every report shows Rivera was essentially forced on Lovie, and he let him go as soon as possible, promoting his friend, who bombed. Beyond just the coordinators, Lovie was also responsible for the assistants we have brought in, and our firing basically everyone on defense last year has to be an indictment on Lovie. OK, I'll agree to most of that. But that's not an argument for replacing Lovie; he's a pretty good head coach, one who's won a lot of games in Chicago. What that's an argument for is bringing in another defensive coordinator, and doing it like what the team did with Rivera; bringing in a DC with some chops who's not Lovie's guy. I don't see why it should be such a big deal; Lovie's great in his role as a head coach, but I think it's pretty clear that the team is better when he has an outside DC on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Couple points. One. How does this affect offense? Turner doesn't have many fans, and I would argue some of our other assistants could be viewed even worse. I am a big time, and have been, critic of our OL coach. Our RB coach failed to develop a #4 pick that now leads the league w/ another team. Our WR coach has never looked that good, though I have even argued that could be more the QB than not. But that is another coach. Our QB coach failed to develop Rex, and Orton sure looks better elsewhere. Yes, I realize those players are in better/different situations, but at the same time, I still think our position coaches can very much be questioned, and as said, most question our OC. While offense isn't Lovie's specialty, as the HC, he is responsible just the same. Two. Lovie was forced to hire Rivera when he came on. He was never for the move, and by all accounts, the relationship between the two was never very good. As soon as he could, he got rid of Rivera and promoted Babich, which didn't work. Then he choose to do the job himself, which doesn't seem to be working either. And that doesn't even factor the position coaches. A big part of the job of the HC is to bring in assistants, and the simple of it is, Lovie's choices have not been very good, and the only one who did look good, was the guy he didn't want and who he got rid of as soon as possible. Three. You can say we hire someone else, but (a) I think you have a problem when you have an established coach who is forced to hire someone he doesn't want and make no mistake, any DC that isn't a facebook friend is going to be someone he doesn't want and ( any DC Angelo theoretically was to hire would likely be pushed by Lovie to run Lovie's scheme. Beyond the assistants, I think there are other arguments against Lovie as a HC. There have been too many times, especially of late, players just do not look prepared and come out flat. That falls on the HC as much as anyone. And how about Lovie's record of challenges, which is talked about nearly every game. Lovie falls near, or at, the bottom of the league when it comes to winning challenges. We won a few years back, but I do think it a valid question to ask whether we won due to or in spite of Lovie. Rivera was a key to the success, and Lovie got rid of him. In the last 2 1/2 seasons, we have seen "Lovie's team" and it has simply not been very good. OK, I'll agree to most of that. But that's not an argument for replacing Lovie; he's a pretty good head coach, one who's won a lot of games in Chicago. What that's an argument for is bringing in another defensive coordinator, and doing it like what the team did with Rivera; bringing in a DC with some chops who's not Lovie's guy. I don't see why it should be such a big deal; Lovie's great in his role as a head coach, but I think it's pretty clear that the team is better when he has an outside DC on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Do you really feel he is truly great? Lovie's great in his role as a head coach, but I think it's pretty clear that the team is better when he has an outside DC on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Do you really feel he is truly great? Yeah Mad, he lost me there. ANYONE who thinks Smith is a great anything simply doesn't watch the games. Sorry Defiant but you are crazy as hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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