The Bears Need Some New Team Doctors

[defiantgiant]

Apparently Marcus Freeman has an enlarged heart, just like Gaines Adams did. His EKG at the Combine was abnormal, so he got a second one. The Bears' doctors either didn't catch his heart condition or didn't think it was a problem (the article doesn't specify,) but when Freeman went to the Colts for a tryout, their doctors said he couldn't safely continue playing.

 

Seriously, I know that awareness of cardiomyopathy among NFL players is just starting to increase, and that these kinds of conditions can be hard to catch in athletes, but it's pretty inexcusable for the Bears' doctors to have missed the diagnosis on both Adams and Freeman. Both these guys passed their physicals with the Bears, both were told that they were fine, and then both turned out to have life-threatening heart conditions. I'm glad the Colts' doctors diagnosed Freeman correctly, so that he didn't risk his life trying to continue playing.

[Daventry]

I would say that there are some people who have some answering to do in this situation. It would be very interesting to see a thorough investigation of this situation. There have been other questions about training/injuries with the Bears in recent years....I wonder what is going on?

[clnr]

You could also argue that the tragic death of Adams lead to teams starting to do a more thorough checkup, especially of the heart. It wasn't just the Bears that missed Freeman's condition. The combine result was OK as was the Bills results.

I believe it was not a standard test for the teams to perform prior to Adams death (it should've been, especially if you see how many soccer players in Europe who suffered a similiar fate).

[defiantgiant]

You could also argue that the tragic death of Adams lead to teams starting to do a more thorough checkup, especially of the heart. It wasn't just the Bears that missed Freeman's condition. The combine result was OK as was the Bills results.

I believe it was not a standard test for the teams to perform prior to Adams death (it should've been, especially if you see how many soccer players in Europe who suffered a similiar fate).

Freeman was drafted prior to Adams' death and had two EKGs at his Combine before the draft - not only are EKGs and MRIs commonplace tests for players, but Freeman's first one actually came back abnormal, which should have put every team on notice. I'm sure that teams are being more careful about heart conditions after Adams' death, the same way that teams have started being more assiduous about post-concussion symptoms in players. But I'm talking about the doctors' obligation to the players, not the teams. Regardless of whether other teams missed the condition, if you're a doctor checking players for heart problems and you miss life-threatening heart conditions in not one but two patients, something needs to change.

[madlithuanian]

Seriously,

 

It's not just the ineptness of our doctors that hinders the team... It's not letting some of these young men know they have a problem and need to do something about it.

 

 

 

Apparently Marcus Freeman has an enlarged heart, just like Gaines Adams did. His EKG at the Combine was abnormal, so he got a second one. The Bears' doctors either didn't catch his heart condition or didn't think it was a problem (the article doesn't specify,) but when Freeman went to the Colts for a tryout, their doctors said he couldn't safely continue playing.

 

Seriously, I know that awareness of cardiomyopathy among NFL players is just starting to increase, and that these kinds of conditions can be hard to catch in athletes, but it's pretty inexcusable for the Bears' doctors to have missed the diagnosis on both Adams and Freeman. Both these guys passed their physicals with the Bears, both were told that they were fine, and then both turned out to have life-threatening heart conditions. I'm glad the Colts' doctors diagnosed Freeman correctly, so that he didn't risk his life trying to continue playing.

 

[LT2_3]

Did you even READ the article you linked to? Freeman had an enlarged heart VALVE and not an enlarged heart. Two entirely separate conditions.

 

The article also clearly states that it may have developed just recently since it wasn't caught by the Bills or Texans either.

 

I think these players need to use their OWN doctors and get tested for everything under the sun. I don't think it's the teams responsibility to screen for every possible thing and from what I understand, the test that would have found Adams' issue is invasive, expensive, and not an ordinary test.

 

I think trying to blame this stuff on the team doctors is silly. It's not their responsibility. The don't work for the players. Their role is not to be each players personal HMO.

 

Now, if the NFLPA wants to make the team doctors responsible for more, then they can give up some money in the next CBA to pay for it. Until then, team doctors shouldn't be viewed as a player's personal physician or healthcare plan.

 

Apparently Marcus Freeman has an enlarged heart, just like Gaines Adams did. His EKG at the Combine was abnormal, so he got a second one. The Bears' doctors either didn't catch his heart condition or didn't think it was a problem (the article doesn't specify,) but when Freeman went to the Colts for a tryout, their doctors said he couldn't safely continue playing.

 

Seriously, I know that awareness of cardiomyopathy among NFL players is just starting to increase, and that these kinds of conditions can be hard to catch in athletes, but it's pretty inexcusable for the Bears' doctors to have missed the diagnosis on both Adams and Freeman. Both these guys passed their physicals with the Bears, both were told that they were fine, and then both turned out to have life-threatening heart conditions. I'm glad the Colts' doctors diagnosed Freeman correctly, so that he didn't risk his life trying to continue playing.

 

[nfoligno]

I think trying to blame this stuff on the team doctors is silly. It's not their responsibility. The don't work for the players. Their role is not to be each players personal HMO.

 

You sure about this? Often businesses set up for a doctor to screen or do physicals for employees. More and more companies are doing this today as it falls under the preventative care philosophy. Find problems early reduce the costs later. Anyway, if I (through work) get a physical, there is an expectation of the individual the doctor has a responsibility to the individual, and not simply the company.

 

I am NOT saying every test under the sun should be performed, or that ANYTHING missed by the doctor is the fault of the company. I am not saying that at all. But I do disagree if you are saying the doctor performing an examination on the employee doesn't have a responsibility to that employee as an individual.

 

 

[BigDaddy]

I think it's pretty obvious with what has happened to players on our team getting injured and having so much trouble getting back on the field as well as how we do physicals, that our team physicians are somewhat lacking. Maybe we should nickname them Team "You don't know jack".

 

Did you even READ the article you linked to? Freeman had an enlarged heart VALVE and not an enlarged heart. Two entirely separate conditions.

 

The article also clearly states that it may have developed just recently since it wasn't caught by the Bills or Texans either.

 

I think these players need to use their OWN doctors and get tested for everything under the sun. I don't think it's the teams responsibility to screen for every possible thing and from what I understand, the test that would have found Adams' issue is invasive, expensive, and not an ordinary test.

 

I think trying to blame this stuff on the team doctors is silly. It's not their responsibility. The don't work for the players. Their role is not to be each players personal HMO.

 

Now, if the NFLPA wants to make the team doctors responsible for more, then they can give up some money in the next CBA to pay for it. Until then, team doctors shouldn't be viewed as a player's personal physician or healthcare plan.

 

[LT2_3]

I think trying to blame this stuff on the team doctors is silly. It's not their responsibility. The don't work for the players. Their role is not to be each players personal HMO.

 

You sure about this? Often businesses set up for a doctor to screen or do physicals for employees. More and more companies are doing this today as it falls under the preventative care philosophy. Find problems early reduce the costs later. Anyway, if I (through work) get a physical, there is an expectation of the individual the doctor has a responsibility to the individual, and not simply the company.

 

I am NOT saying every test under the sun should be performed, or that ANYTHING missed by the doctor is the fault of the company. I am not saying that at all. But I do disagree if you are saying the doctor performing an examination on the employee doesn't have a responsibility to that employee as an individual.

 

I'm not saying that doctors from an employer don't have to follow their Hippocratic oath, but the players should be taking responsibility for their own healthcare.

[madlithuanian]

That's not the crux of the discussion here. Maybe it should be, but we're really talking under the context of medical crews for NFL teams.

 

The point is that it would appear our doctors are not quite as good as one would hope. Thus adding credibility to a laundry list of compaints that have at minimum started with Sayers, Ditka, and Butkus and have continued through the decades.

 

Everyone on earth needs to look after themselves, and really it's their own ultimate responsibility to do so regardless of one's poltitical/religious/philosophical leaning. Let's not look at this like a religious/poltical/philosophical discussion of doctors and their place in society...let's look at the crew we have as being sub-par for the NFL.

 

Numerous players have not been properly diagnosed, seem to be constantly injured, or don't heal properly while under watch of this crew. Is it random bad luck, poor doctoring, or worse...some decree from above to make thigs happen one way or another? I think it's a mix of A & B...

 

 

 

I'm not saying that doctors from an employer don't have to follow their Hippocratic oath, but the players should be taking responsibility for their own healthcare.

 

[nfoligno]

No argument here. Team doctors are a great tool, but at the same time, not the only tool a player should utilize.

 

I think this may be off point though. I believe the point was more an issue of the competency level of our medical staff. While I am not going to specifically say that our team medical staff are at fault (not in a legal sense) for the Gaines Adams or Freeman, I have argued previously that I didn't feel our medical staff was very good.

 

I realize it may not always be our staffs fault, but when it happens often enough, I just have to feel they are at least "part" of the problem. Take Williams, who several teams actually took him off their draft boards due to medical concerns, and yet we drafted him anyway. Some may say it was Angelo simply taking a risk or disregarding the medical staff's comments. I personally think it may be more an issue of our medical staff not giving a strong enough opinion. Williams is just an example. You look at Pisa last year. He tries to come back too soon from injury and immediately goes back down for the year. This seems to happen every year.

 

Maybe our medical staff is the best there is, and the rest of our staff are just too stupid to listen, but I have a feeling that at least part of the problem is within that medical group.

 

I'm not saying that doctors from an employer don't have to follow their Hippocratic oath, but the players should be taking responsibility for their own healthcare.

 

[lemonej]

In no way am I defending the Bears medical staff because as Mad L alluded too there has been a history of bad medical decisions tied to this organization whether it was the poor surgeries performed by Dr. Clarence Fossier and assisted by Ted Fox or the rampant use of pain killing injections before during and after the games which was the "norm" during the 60's and 70's. These two young men both attended very large universities with big athletic budgets and where is their training and medical staffs part in all of this?

 

As for this team's drafting of players with injuries, lets face it thats typical JA. Whether it was Williams, Corey Graham, Zack Bowman, Derek Kinder and now Corey Wooten this is what Angelo does. If I do recall even Bernard Berrian had an injury history at Fresno State. There were some reports that stated that Tommie Harris had the knees of a 35 year old man prior to his being picked by the Bears . For a couple of years that seemed far-fetched but, recently it seems on the money. Time after time it seems the Bears roll the dice on these player during the draft. So nothing they do surprises me. I sometimes wonder why Marc Colombo has been able to stay on the field for the Cowboys but never played a full season here. That is something I put on this organization.

[AZ54]

Interesting discussion considering how far Dez Bryant fell because of his heart condition.

[nfoligno]

I had not heard about a heart condition. I knew Dez fell because of getting into trouble with the NCAA, as well as general character concerns, but had not heard about heart issues.

 

Interesting discussion considering how far Dez Bryant fell because of his heart condition.

 

[defiantgiant]

Did you even READ the article you linked to? Freeman had an enlarged heart VALVE and not an enlarged heart. Two entirely separate conditions.

Yeah, I did, actually. I mean, I'm not a doctor or anything. Are you? If so, what's the difference between an enlarged left ventricle and an enlarged valve in the left ventricle? Are they really distinct conditions? That definitely changes things if they're different. I mean, I haven't run across any information that talks about having an enlarged mitral valve or anything separate from just having an enlarged left ventricle, and I know that a lot of laymen (myself included) tend to use "valve" kind of interchangeably with "chamber" when talking about the heart, so it wouldn't surprise me if the sportswriter whose article I linked to wasn't using exact medical terminology. If that's the case, then from what I've read, enlargement/thickening of the left ventricle is exactly the kind of cardiomegaly that's likely to lead to cardiac arrest.

 

The article also clearly states that it may have developed just recently since it wasn't caught by the Bills or Texans either.

Did YOU read the article? The article doesn't "clearly state" that it may be recent. There's no evidence given that it may be recent. Freeman himself SPECULATES that the condition may be recent, but the only thing he says he knows for sure is that his first EKG was abnormal and that he never heard anything one way or another about his second one. Here's the exact quote from Freeman, just so we're on the same page:

"They had found my heart had come back abnormal at the combine and they redid (the EKG)," Freeman said. "After I took it again, nothing was said about it and we moved on. I don't know if it was (enlarged) then or if it happened in the recent year or what."

 

And, in fact, if we're talking about what Freeman said, his next quote is a little more damning:

"The Bears never mentioned it. They were more concerned about my knee and trying to make sure that was healthy. That's the biggest thing, I think, why I was shocked in Indianapolis."

 

I think trying to blame this stuff on the team doctors is silly. It's not their responsibility. The don't work for the players. Their role is not to be each players personal HMO.

 

Now, if the NFLPA wants to make the team doctors responsible for more, then they can give up some money in the next CBA to pay for it. Until then, team doctors shouldn't be viewed as a player's personal physician or healthcare plan.

I couldn't disagree with you more. These doctors were being asked to review Freeman's medical history, which (at that point) included at least one abnormal EKG. Even if you think they were only responsible to the team (which I don't - they have a responsibility to their patients regardless) they were being asked by the team to look for medical problems that might keep him from playing. An abnormal EKG suggests that there might be such a problem and, in fact, there was one. Given how severe the consequences can be for letting something like that go undiagnosed, they had every responsibility to find it and to let both the player and the team know.

[LT2_3]

DG - All I'm saying is that there is a major difference between an enlarged heart (Adams) and an enlarged heart valve (Freeman). I'm not a doctor either, but I'm not the one confusing the diagnosis.

 

Again, I'm not a doctor, but what does an occasional abnormal EKG mean? Was it abnormal the second time they took it at the combine? Could it have been because he was excited? Did Freeman then go get it checked out by his own doctor? What was HIS prognosis of Freeman's condition? There are too many questions that we don't have answers to.

 

Now, not being a doctor, it sounds to me that an abnormal EKG is probably about as informative as a "check engine" light coming on in a car. It could mean something is wrong, but if it goes out again, it probably doesn't mean that much necessarily. Most likely, like a mechanic would tell you with a car, it would take a whole bunch more tests to figure out if there was actually, if anything, wrong or whether it was a phantom reading.

 

Again, I will state that I am not a doctor, but I repair computers for a living and know a few things about diagnosing problems. If Windows tells you that your hard drive has errors, you might be able to fix it with a scandisk. That might not work. It might get fixed by reformatting the drive and it might not. In a case like that, I ask the person how much the want to spend finding out what the problem is and recommend that they replace the drive. If they tell me not to check any further, then I don't. So, in this instance, does the doctor have any responsibility to look any further than find out that there MIGHT have been a problem? I say no. It's the player's responsibility to take care of his own health.

 

Now, the question is whether the NFL doctors have any responsibility to follow up on whatever they find. I think it's their responsibility to tell the player to get himself fully checked out, but it's not their responsibility to diagnose the actual problem. My point is that Freeman should have had himself checked out no matter what. If they made him take an EKG a second time at the combine, then he should have gone directly to his doctor as soon as he signed his contract and was covered by health insurance. The doctors shouldn't have had to tell him anything.

 

Now, as for the other issues, I don't know whether the doctors only check the stuff they are told to check, or whether the front office tells them to do the minimum to cover their liability or what. My point is that blindly suggesting that we need new doctors is ridiculous when we don't even understand the issues in play. Is it a money issue? Is it a liability issue? Is it the scouting department ignoring or not understanding what the doctors are telling them? I have no idea and neither do you.

[madlithuanian]

Nor am I a doctor, but I have a history of heart issues that run in my family, and an abnormal EKG is a MAJOR warning sign. Follow up must be done. It may amount to something more minor, but it is a serious flag. You may compare it to a check engine light, and there is some validity. However, unlike a mechanic, a doctor has a bit more responsibility. Both to the patient and his employer.

 

I stress that people should not take these matters and toss it aside like a car tune up. This is life and death here, not a powertrain.

 

You toss off doctor responsibility like it were software. It's not. I have a handful of friends that are doctors, and they will readily admit to that. It's why they got into the profession besides the money. They may not want to run the follow-up tests because that would cost the McCaskey's money, but they have a respnsibility to let the patient know that there could be issues and that he should look into it further. And isn't that just being a good human for heaven's sake?

 

I have no idea why these doctor's didn't catch this/make mention/etc. We may never really know. But it simply adds more fuel to the fire that they are not up to par.

 

Are you really shocked that people are clammoring for new doctors? Have you read that the league, the Surgeon General and the UN contact the Bears medical staff any time there's a medical issue to discuss? Something tells me that's not the case. So, asking for something new implies a desire for better. Kind of like our GM, owenrs,etc... It's really all part of the same beast to some. The management is inept, and it would appear it could stretch to the medical staff as well.

 

This isn't a court of law, it's a court of opinion. And there appears to be enough cause for concern over our current medical staff.

 

DG - All I'm saying is that there is a major difference between an enlarged heart (Adams) and an enlarged heart valve (Freeman). I'm not a doctor either, but I'm not the one confusing the diagnosis.

 

Again, I'm not a doctor, but what does an occasional abnormal EKG mean? Was it abnormal the second time they took it at the combine? Could it have been because he was excited? Did Freeman then go get it checked out by his own doctor? What was HIS prognosis of Freeman's condition? There are too many questions that we don't have answers to.

 

Now, not being a doctor, it sounds to me that an abnormal EKG is probably about as informative as a "check engine" light coming on in a car. It could mean something is wrong, but if it goes out again, it probably doesn't mean that much necessarily. Most likely, like a mechanic would tell you with a car, it would take a whole bunch more tests to figure out if there was actually, if anything, wrong or whether it was a phantom reading.

 

Again, I will state that I am not a doctor, but I repair computers for a living and know a few things about diagnosing problems. If Windows tells you that your hard drive has errors, you might be able to fix it with a scandisk. That might not work. It might get fixed by reformatting the drive and it might not. In a case like that, I ask the person how much the want to spend finding out what the problem is and recommend that they replace the drive. If they tell me not to check any further, then I don't. So, in this instance, does the doctor have any responsibility to look any further than find out that there MIGHT have been a problem? I say no. It's the player's responsibility to take care of his own health.

 

Now, the question is whether the NFL doctors have any responsibility to follow up on whatever they find. I think it's their responsibility to tell the player to get himself fully checked out, but it's not their responsibility to diagnose the actual problem. My point is that Freeman should have had himself checked out no matter what. If they made him take an EKG a second time at the combine, then he should have gone directly to his doctor as soon as he signed his contract and was covered by health insurance. The doctors shouldn't have had to tell him anything.

 

Now, as for the other issues, I don't know whether the doctors only check the stuff they are told to check, or whether the front office tells them to do the minimum to cover their liability or what. My point is that blindly suggesting that we need new doctors is ridiculous when we don't even understand the issues in play. Is it a money issue? Is it a liability issue? Is it the scouting department ignoring or not understanding what the doctors are telling them? I have no idea and neither do you.

 

[LT2_3]

Nor am I a doctor, but I have a history of heart issues that run in my family, and an abnormal EKG is a MAJOR warning sign. Follow up must be done. It may amount to something more minor, but it is a serious flag. You may compare it to a check engine light, and there is some validity. However, unlike a mechanic, a doctor has a bit more responsibility. Both to the patient and his employer.

 

Ok - first off, let's establish some details here. From what I understand, at the combine, there are general tests that are done by the doctors that aren't aligned to any particular team. This is to eliminate the need for 32 sets of the same tests be done for each player. So, the way I'm reading this, it was the doctors that ran the tests at the combine that took the first and second EKGs.

 

From the article:

Colts doctors told Freeman he wouldn't pass an NFL physical less than a year after he was given two EKGs at the scouting combine, information that was available to all NFL teams.

 

"They had found my heart had come back abnormal at the combine and they redid (the EKG)," Freeman said. "After I took it again, nothing was said about it and we moved on. I don't know if it was (enlarged) then or if it happened in the recent year or what.

 

So, the doctors at the combine told him nothing and distributed the results to all 32 teams. Who would have been responsible for telling Freeman something? It sounds to me like he passed the physical or he would have never been drafted in the first place.

 

I stress that people should not take these matters and toss it aside like a car tune up. This is life and death here, not a powertrain.

 

Well no freakin duh.

 

You toss off doctor responsibility like it were software. It's not. I have a handful of friends that are doctors, and they will readily admit to that. It's why they got into the profession besides the money. They may not want to run the follow-up tests because that would cost the McCaskey's money, but they have a respnsibility to let the patient know that there could be issues and that he should look into it further. And isn't that just being a good human for heaven's sake?

 

Ok, fine. I'll buy that. But why is the Bears doctors responsibility to tell him anything when they didn't give the tests? For that matter, what if his EKG was fine when he took his physical with the Bears? Do we know what happened then?

 

I have no idea why these doctor's didn't catch this/make mention/etc. We may never really know. But it simply adds more fuel to the fire that they are not up to par.

 

It only adds fuel to the fire if you're already standing around with a gas can waiting to pour it on. For me, there simply isn't enough of the story to have an opinion because hey - I don't know what happened and make it a practice not to speculate about things that I don't have any information about.

 

Are you really shocked that people are clammoring for new doctors? Have you read that the league, the Surgeon General and the UN contact the Bears medical staff any time there's a medical issue to discuss? Something tells me that's not the case. So, asking for something new implies a desire for better. Kind of like our GM, owenrs,etc... It's really all part of the same beast to some. The management is inept, and it would appear it could stretch to the medical staff as well.

 

You're right. I shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of fans are making a mountain out of not having enough information to go on, and simply kvetch about anything they can possibly come up with whether they know wtf they are talking about or not.

 

This isn't a court of law, it's a court of opinion. And there appears to be enough cause for concern over our current medical staff.

 

That's a load of crap. This is a case of people bitching because they feel like it whether there is cause or not.

 

Face it, people are still pissed that we didn't have a 2nd rounder. I am too. However, that doesn't mean that I'm willing to accuse people of being incompetent willy nilly when we simply don't have the facts.

 

C'mon. The Bears doctors didn't even give the tests at the combine. Why are we even talking about them?

[madlithuanian]

Thank you for clarifying some of the facts of the case.

 

I still don't understand how abnormal results would not have been relayed to the patient? Just makes no logical sense to me...

 

Your no freakin' duh comment simply amuses me... You're the one that compared human life to a car anbd fixing computers.

 

I'm not sure what doctors you've dealt with in your life, but if they've treated you like Freeman was treated, I'd look for better. I take a battery of tests, and my doctors alert me to anything that I should even remotely be aware of. I'd certainly hope any doctor seeing an abnormal result would at least let the poor man know. That's fraud by omission. This guy thinks all is well, and may not be. If the Bears docs saw results of an older test, they should have made mention to the young man. And said your new one looks OK, but maybe you should seek further tests.

 

Just as you apparently get irritated by those who relay opinion about something w/o 100% of knowledge, I'm equally irritated by those who say people cannot make a reasonable hypothesis based on the info at hand.

 

The only load of crap here is the person who didn't relay the info to Freeman.

 

Someone doesn't have to administer a test to relay results. All the facts should have been presented to the young man by any doctor involved, whether the Bears or not. Shame on all of them.

 

 

 

Ok - first off, let's establish some details here. From what I understand, at the combine, there are general tests that are done by the doctors that aren't aligned to any particular team. This is to eliminate the need for 32 sets of the same tests be done for each player. So, the way I'm reading this, it was the doctors that ran the tests at the combine that took the first and second EKGs.

 

From the article:

 

 

So, the doctors at the combine told him nothing and distributed the results to all 32 teams. Who would have been responsible for telling Freeman something? It sounds to me like he passed the physical or he would have never been drafted in the first place.

 

 

 

Well no freakin duh.

 

 

 

Ok, fine. I'll buy that. But why is the Bears doctors responsibility to tell him anything when they didn't give the tests? For that matter, what if his EKG was fine when he took his physical with the Bears? Do we know what happened then?

 

 

 

It only adds fuel to the fire if you're already standing around with a gas can waiting to pour it on. For me, there simply isn't enough of the story to have an opinion because hey - I don't know what happened and make it a practice not to speculate about things that I don't have any information about.

 

 

 

You're right. I shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of fans are making a mountain out of not having enough information to go on, and simply kvetch about anything they can possibly come up with whether they know wtf they are talking about or not.

 

 

 

That's a load of crap. This is a case of people bitching because they feel like it whether there is cause or not.

 

Face it, people are still pissed that we didn't have a 2nd rounder. I am too. However, that doesn't mean that I'm willing to accuse people of being incompetent willy nilly when we simply don't have the facts.

 

C'mon. The Bears doctors didn't even give the tests at the combine. Why are we even talking about them?

 

[Pixote]

That's a load of crap. This is a case of people bitching because they feel like it whether there is cause or not.

 

Face it, people are still pissed that we didn't have a 2nd rounder. I am too. However, that doesn't mean that I'm willing to accuse people of being incompetent willy nilly when we simply don't have the facts.

 

C'mon. The Bears doctors didn't even give the tests at the combine. Why are we even talking about them?

 

I agree with you totally LT.

[Connorbear]

That's a load of crap. This is a case of people bitching because they feel like it whether there is cause or not.

 

Face it, people are still pissed that we didn't have a 2nd rounder. I am too. However, that doesn't mean that I'm willing to accuse people of being incompetent willy nilly when we simply don't have the facts.

 

C'mon. The Bears doctors didn't even give the tests at the combine. Why are we even talking about them?

I agree 100%. There is more than enough to bitch about with Bears management and coaching. Time to move to another topic.

 

Peace

[LT2_3]

Thank you for clarifying some of the facts of the case.

 

I still don't understand how abnormal results would not have been relayed to the patient? Just makes no logical sense to me...

 

Me neither, but I think it's a function of the Doctors hired by the league (or the teams) and their role. I see them as a qualified technician to evaluate the status of a potential player and that their role isn't as a caregiver.

 

Your no freakin' duh comment simply amuses me... You're the one that compared human life to a car anbd fixing computers.

 

Those comparisons were given to point out that they don't work for the player, they work for the league. It could be something stupid like the fact that in some states, insurance companies can still refuse you health insurance coverage for pre-existing conditions. If they turned something up at the combine that would prevent their playing football and told the player about it, depending on the state they live in, they could be denied health insurance because the combine doctors told them about it.

 

In other words, I don't think it's right, but I think it's just the standard procedure. They tell the teams of the results and not the players as a general rule.

 

I'm not sure what doctors you've dealt with in your life, but if they've treated you like Freeman was treated, I'd look for better. I take a battery of tests, and my doctors alert me to anything that I should even remotely be aware of. I'd certainly hope any doctor seeing an abnormal result would at least let the poor man know. That's fraud by omission. This guy thinks all is well, and may not be. If the Bears docs saw results of an older test, they should have made mention to the young man. And said your new one looks OK, but maybe you should seek further tests.

 

You do realize the subtle point that the doctors don't work for Freeman, right? It sounds like you think the team doctors should sit down with each player and go over every single test result and explain each one to every single player they examine. If you don't believe that, then it has to be where WE think they should draw the line that we are discussing. I seriously think we don't have enough info to make that kind of evaluation.

 

Just as you apparently get irritated by those who relay opinion about something w/o 100% of knowledge, I'm equally irritated by those who say people cannot make a reasonable hypothesis based on the info at hand.

 

Unfortunately it reminds me of newbs would come on the board during the early days of the salary cap and made trade suggestions that were actual impossibilities because the cap acceleration of the player traded would have put the team over the cap before even considering the salary of the guy traded for.

 

Hey it's really no big deal. I just think that your complaint is with the policies and procedures and not with the guys doing the actual work for the Bears. That's fine and I'd love to discuss it if there were a way to find the info out. Short of posing as a journalist and contacting some NFL teams to get the straight poop, I don't think there is any way to know what their policies and procedures are.

 

[azbearsfan]

You're right. I shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of fans are making a mountain out of not having enough information to go on, and simply kvetch about anything they can possibly come up with whether they know wtf they are talking about or not.

 

 

That's a load of crap. This is a case of people bitching because they feel like it whether there is cause or not.

 

 

Dude this is Talkbears. Shouldn't be surprised about misinformed bitching at all.

 

 

 

[madlithuanian]

Fair enough.

 

I now get a bigger perspective of what you're trying to say.

 

You are correct in my chief complaint of the Bears' policies/procedures. However, i do have circumstantial concern that something isn't quite right in the state of Denmark as it relates to their skills. I have no real evidence other than guy that were perrenially injured with us, have seemed to be healthy elsewhere. Could be random. But I simply watch with a very weary eye.

 

 

 

Me neither, but I think it's a function of the Doctors hired by the league (or the teams) and their role. I see them as a qualified technician to evaluate the status of a potential player and that their role isn't as a caregiver.

 

 

 

Those comparisons were given to point out that they don't work for the player, they work for the league. It could be something stupid like the fact that in some states, insurance companies can still refuse you health insurance coverage for pre-existing conditions. If they turned something up at the combine that would prevent their playing football and told the player about it, depending on the state they live in, they could be denied health insurance because the combine doctors told them about it.

 

In other words, I don't think it's right, but I think it's just the standard procedure. They tell the teams of the results and not the players as a general rule.

 

 

 

You do realize the subtle point that the doctors don't work for Freeman, right? It sounds like you think the team doctors should sit down with each player and go over every single test result and explain each one to every single player they examine. If you don't believe that, then it has to be where WE think they should draw the line that we are discussing. I seriously think we don't have enough info to make that kind of evaluation.

 

 

 

Unfortunately it reminds me of newbs would come on the board during the early days of the salary cap and made trade suggestions that were actual impossibilities because the cap acceleration of the player traded would have put the team over the cap before even considering the salary of the guy traded for.

 

Hey it's really no big deal. I just think that your complaint is with the policies and procedures and not with the guys doing the actual work for the Bears. That's fine and I'd love to discuss it if there were a way to find the info out. Short of posing as a journalist and contacting some NFL teams to get the straight poop, I don't think there is any way to know what their policies and procedures are.

 

[nfoligno]

Just to throw out there, this is not the first time our medical staff has been questioned. I questioned our medical staff long before these recent events, so I am not just "bitching" about the loss of a 2nd rounder. Frankly, when it comes to Adams, my "bitch" is that we gave up a 2nd round pick for a player who was declared a bust by his (at the time) current team and who was likely to be released at the end of the season. Considing how cheap it has been to obtain players this offseason, I bet Adams could have been had (if he were not cut) for a 5th round pick, if that.

 

No, I have questioned our medical staff in the past for other reason. It may be Angelo flat out ignoring the opinion of the medical staff, but I have also wondered how strongly the medical staff warns/informs Angelo of players injury history. Further, we have seen several cases of players who came back from injury too soon, only to immediately go down again but for a longer period of time. Before a player returns from injury, they have to get approval from the medical staff. Then there are times like when R.Brown was playing with one arm (his statement after the season). Could the doctors not see this?

 

No, I have questioned our medical staff long before these recent issues. I know FAR too little about heart issues to really know whether our medical staff missed something that should have been seen, whether they saw it but didn't think it was enough of an issue to fear or whether our doctors saw it and told Angelo but he disregarded it. Thus I have not attacked our doctors much for Adams, or now Freeman. But I have questioned our medical staff over the years for other issues, so I personally am not simply bitching about them specific to Adams.

 

 

 

I agree with you totally LT.