2012 Offensive Starters

[DABEARSDABOMB]

Seriously, look at this list of WR's:

 

Bennett (actually good but not great)

Knox (will be lucky if he plays football again)

Hester (belongs on ST)

Sanzenbacher (right now a 5th-6th WR at best)

Roy Williams (should be gone next year, is a FA anyway).

Hurd (one of Chicago's largest drug dealers)

 

Add in Davis, an average-at-best TE, and it's no mystery here why the RB's are the Bears most reliable passing targets. There's 1 guy in that list who really ought to be getting regular playing time as a top 3 WR, and he keeps getting hurt for 1/2 the season.

Wideout is a much greater area of need than oline. Our oline is not that bad. Repeat...not that bad. In fact, as Carimi progresses and Williams comes back, I still like what we have by and large. It isn't perfect but as they gel, it will be fine.

[jason]

Wideout is a much greater area of need than oline. Our oline is not that bad. Repeat...not that bad. In fact, as Carimi progresses and Williams comes back, I still like what we have by and large. It isn't perfect but as they gel, it will be fine.

 

That's absurd. I don't see how you guys can continue to peddle this nonsense with a straight face.

 

Webb is bad.

Edwin Williams is bad.

Garza is average.

Spencer is bad.

Louis is below average.

 

When and if Carimi and Chris Williams come back, the OL goes from bad to below average.

 

8th most negative rushing plays to the left side.

1st most negative rushing plays to the right side.

3rd most negative rushing plays overall.

5th most sacks.

8th most QB hits.

Countless hurries

Pressure in the backfield every other play.

Tons of ridiculous, undisciplined penalties.

Virtually zero depth.

 

If that's "not bad" then I don't know what the hell bad is.

 

I can buy someone thinking the WR position is a bigger priority than the OL, even though I disagree, but quit with this nonsense about the OL being anything other than bad. Because that's what they are. They are bad.

[Mongo3451]

That's absurd. I don't see how you guys can continue to peddle this nonsense with a straight face.

 

Webb is bad.

Edwin Williams is bad.

Garza is average.

Spencer is bad.

Louis is below average.

 

When and if Carimi and Chris Williams come back, the OL goes from bad to below average.

 

8th most negative rushing plays to the left side.

1st most negative rushing plays to the right side.

3rd most negative rushing plays overall.

5th most sacks.

8th most QB hits.

Countless hurries

Pressure in the backfield every other play.

Tons of ridiculous, undisciplined penalties.

Virtually zero depth.

 

If that's "not bad" then I don't know what the hell bad is.

 

I can buy someone thinking the WR position is a bigger priority than the OL, even though I disagree, but quit with this nonsense about the OL being anything other than bad. Because that's what they are. They are bad.

I agree with you that OL is still the greatest need, but disagree with some your player evaluation. I also get what DABEARSDABOMB is saying about experience and continuity.

 

Here's my talent eval:

 

Webb is bad = totally agree

Edwin Williams is bad, but he is the backup to an average player moving up to good in Chris Williams.

Garza is average = agree

Spencer is NOT bad, I have him at slightly below average with upside. Again though, he is the backup to Louis. IMO - Louis is average with tremendous upside as Guard. He is completely out of position at RT.

Louis=see above. Carimi is average with upside, as long as he stays at RT.

 

To me, all we need is a LT to come in and boot Webb. At that, we need to hit a homerun with the pick for the plan to be successful. If that occurs, Omiyale is gone forever and Webb is the swing tackle. I would also love to get lucky and steal Nicks from the Saints and draft an LT. This would afford us the luxury of Chris Williams as an LT while the younster develops. Then Edwin Williams is gone. Then next year, draft the center of the future.

[Grouchy Bear]

First of all Happy Holidays to all !

 

sorry I messed up

[Grouchy Bear]

First of all Happy Holidays to all !

 

I tend to side with Jason on this one guys. My biggest concern and always is protecting Cutler at all cost or any other QB we have. When Jay does have some time he can rip apart a defense like the other top Qbs.

I don't think this oline is very good or even average. Way too many mental and basic fundamental physical errors.

 

Yes, we have had injuries on the oline I understand this but even before the injuries this was a wish and a prayer before each game. Football parties were having drinking games for every time jay got sacked you took a shot for goodness sake. Call a cab somebody !

 

Let's not fool ourselves ! Tice may be a good oline coach but he needs talent to work with. How can a coach teach so many linemen at one time who are playing different positions then what they are accustomed too, let alone are not very good at their original positions.

 

My grades are not as harsh as Jasons but this is what I expect to see next years starting Oline will be if team Angelo continues their ways of thinking.

 

Center Garza good

Guards Spencer average / louis better at guard and would become good if they stop moving him

Tackles Carimi a work in progress that could be come very good when healthy / chris williams and webb are just plain bad where ever they play. Tice will have to work overtime to get these two to be just average.

 

Now, I would like to see us get :

 

# 1 sign free agents Nicks or Grubbs ( maybe both but that's just dreaming ). Also one or two WR's like Colston , Wayne , Meachem.

 

#2 With the first pick go for the wide receiver we need bad. Since the top two or three OT tackles worth a first round pick might not be there when we draft.

 

#3 Now grab our starting left OT with the second pick.

 

[Bears4Ever_34]

That's absurd. I don't see how you guys can continue to peddle this nonsense with a straight face.

 

Webb is bad.

Edwin Williams is bad.

Garza is average.

Spencer is bad.

Louis is below average.

 

When and if Carimi and Chris Williams come back, the OL goes from bad to below average.

 

8th most negative rushing plays to the left side.

1st most negative rushing plays to the right side.

3rd most negative rushing plays overall.

5th most sacks.

8th most QB hits.

Countless hurries

Pressure in the backfield every other play.

Tons of ridiculous, undisciplined penalties.

Virtually zero depth.

 

If that's "not bad" then I don't know what the hell bad is.

 

I can buy someone thinking the WR position is a bigger priority than the OL, even though I disagree, but quit with this nonsense about the OL being anything other than bad. Because that's what they are. They are bad.

 

I'm not sure where you get off by saying Roberto Garza is average. He's been borderline elite for most of the season with only 2 penalties and 1 sack allowed. How is that average? Edwin Williams has not given up a sack in his 5 games as a starter, and Chris Spencer has only allowed 0.5 sack on the year. Jamarcus Webb, and Lance Louis (Post Jay Cutler) have been by far the worst performers on this line, giving up a combined 20 sacks. The other guys have not been as bad as you claim.

 

 

My turn..

 

Roy Williams: 27 rec 366 only 1 TD. Beyond bad- Won't be on a roster next season.

Devin Hester: 25 rec 355 only 1 TD. Not a WR

Johnny Knox: 37 rec 727 yards only 2 TD's. Slight step up from beyond bad

Dan Sanzenbacher: 21 rec 198 yards 3 TD's. Beyond Bad- won't be on the roster next season

Sam Hurd- 40 years in prison

 

Here's the kicker.

 

Matt Forte- 52 rec 490 yards 1 TD in 12 games. It should go without saying that if our RB is tallying up more yards and targets than our starting WR's, and has been for a number of years, it's time to get a new group of receivers.

 

With Cutler back under center, and Carimi and Williams back healthy this line is not terrible and they are not bad. Keep in mind we will be running a system without Mr. 7 step drop next year which will only make it easier for the offensive line to block more consistently throughout a game. Hopefully we'll have someone that will allow Cutler to audible which would then give him even more freedom to dictate the type of blocking he wants from his line-- something he's unable to do with this offense.

[jason]

I'm not sure where you get off by saying Roberto Garza is average. He's been borderline elite for most of the season with only 2 penalties and 1 sack allowed. How is that average? Edwin Williams has not given up a sack in his 5 games as a starter, and Chris Spencer has only allowed 0.5 sack on the year. Jamarcus Webb, and Lance Louis (Post Jay Cutler) have been by far the worst performers on this line, giving up a combined 20 sacks. The other guys have not been as bad as you claim.

 

My turn..

 

Roy Williams: 27 rec 366 only 1 TD. Beyond bad- Won't be on a roster next season.

Devin Hester: 25 rec 355 only 1 TD. Not a WR

Johnny Knox: 37 rec 727 yards only 2 TD's. Slight step up from beyond bad

Dan Sanzenbacher: 21 rec 198 yards 3 TD's. Beyond Bad- won't be on the roster next season

Sam Hurd- 40 years in prison

 

Here's the kicker.

 

Matt Forte- 52 rec 490 yards 1 TD in 12 games. It should go without saying that if our RB is tallying up more yards and targets than our starting WR's, and has been for a number of years, it's time to get a new group of receivers.

 

With Cutler back under center, and Carimi and Williams back healthy this line is not terrible and they are not bad. Keep in mind we will be running a system without Mr. 7 step drop next year which will only make it easier for the offensive line to block more consistently throughout a game. Hopefully we'll have someone that will allow Cutler to audible which would then give him even more freedom to dictate the type of blocking he wants from his line-- something he's unable to do with this offense.

 

Regarding the OL, the sack statistic is completely unreliable as a single measure of success. So much more goes into it, and you know it. For instance, suppose an LG doesn't give up a sack but every pass play is a three-step drop and a quick pass to the right? Does that say whether or not the OG got blown up but the DT just didn't have time to get to the QB? Of course it doesn't. There are countless scenarios that make OL success a difficult measurement. Four sacks in 60+ offensive possessions versus the Seahawks. That's not terrible. But the OL definitely sucked last game, and that underscores the problem with using simply sacks as a measurement of the OL. That's why I attempted play-by-play analysis last game. It's also why I challenge anyone else to do so on a play-by-play basis. There appears to be a lot of revisionist history in regards to their performance at the end of the game.

 

Also, you're ignoring where I said I could completely understand, while disagreeing, that the WR position is as big a need as OL. Both are big needs, but I just happen to believe a superior OL would maximize WR potential because it would give the QB tons of time to throw (see: Hanie to Bell last week). The initial response was entirely because DBDB pretended the OL was "not that bad," which is utterly ridiculous. Just straight up wrong. I don't mind the OL/WR disagreement. Actually, I kind of enjoy it. But anyone acting like the Bears OL isn't bad is either lying to themself or not watching the games.

[balta1701-A]

The initial response was entirely because DBDB pretended the OL was "not that bad," which is utterly ridiculous. Just straight up wrong. I don't mind the OL/WR disagreement. Actually, I kind of enjoy it. But anyone acting like the Bears OL isn't bad is either lying to themself or not watching the games.

Watching the games doesn't really tell the whole story when one of the 2 first round picks on the line has played what, 1 quarter this season?

 

The line actually even, IMO, played quite well for about 4-6 games in there, when the Bears hit that winning streak and Martz had good run/pass balance going. In particular, they were mauling people on the run to the right side by getting Williams out in front and having Webb seal off the back. But then, they lost Williams.

 

Next year in July, if the Bears do absolutely nothing, their O-Line will have 2 extra first round picks in it, will be deeper, and will have everyone with another year of experience. These are all big benefits. The only real debate I can buy from anyone is whether or not something can be done to upgrade over Webb. If the Bears are going to invest heavy FA dollars in the O-line, then I can see an upgrade happening there...but a new starting LT still winds up being my third or fourth priority on the list for the offseason (WR, DE, backup Tackle to replace Omiyale, backup QB). And I really don't like the idea of replacing Webb with a first round draft pick, because I think you actually will lose a lot if you try to stick a rookie in at that spot compared to a guy who has had to be on an island in the Bears O for 2 years now

[Bears4Ever_34]

Regarding the OL, the sack statistic is completely unreliable as a single measure of success.

Not really. It's actually the greatest measuring stick to success. What's the worst two things that can happen to you as an offensive lineman? Allowing a sack or committing a penalty. You can ignore the sacks allowed if you want but the proof is in the pudding. Webb has allowed 11 sacks and has committed 12 penalties, while Lance Louis has allowed 8.5 sacks and committed 3 penalties. In the three games the great Frank Omiyale played in, he manage to give up 4 sacks and committed 6 penalties. The rest of the guys you mentioned, have only allowed 1.5 sacks and have only committed 7 penalties (4 from Spencer). Would you not agree that those 3 have played better than Lance Louis and Jamarcus Webb?

 

For instance, suppose an LG doesn't give up a sack but every pass play is a three-step drop and a quick pass to the right? Does that say whether or not the OG got blown up but the DT just didn't have time to get to the QB? Of course it doesn't.

Those are plays that don't have statistics attached to them. If you are going off of the eye test then that isn't a very good tactic to use in a debate. Just saying.

 

But the OL definitely sucked last game, and that underscores the problem with using simply sacks as a measurement of the OL. That's why I attempted play-by-play analysis last game.

I never got a chance to see any of the Seahawks game so I can't contend against your analysis of that game. But as I've said in the past, I really would be hesitant to use the games that Cutler/Forte never played in as good evaluators for the line. I'm not saying you CANT do it but I don't see the point. There's a reason why the line's play has drastically declined over the past several weeks and his name is Caleb Haine.

 

Also, you're ignoring where I said I could completely understand, while disagreeing, that the WR position is as big a need as OL.

The Garza assessment caught my eye the most. I just wanted to make a point that some of those guys you said that were playing bad, really weren't.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

That's absurd. I don't see how you guys can continue to peddle this nonsense with a straight face.

 

Webb is bad.

Edwin Williams is bad.

Garza is average.

Spencer is bad.

Louis is below average.

 

When and if Carimi and Chris Williams come back, the OL goes from bad to below average.

 

8th most negative rushing plays to the left side.

1st most negative rushing plays to the right side.

3rd most negative rushing plays overall.

5th most sacks.

8th most QB hits.

Countless hurries

Pressure in the backfield every other play.

Tons of ridiculous, undisciplined penalties.

Virtually zero depth.

 

If that's "not bad" then I don't know what the hell bad is.

 

I can buy someone thinking the WR position is a bigger priority than the OL, even though I disagree, but quit with this nonsense about the OL being anything other than bad. Because that's what they are. They are bad.

I heard the argument from you for years about how our wide receivers were good. They were and always have been bad. You are completely overreacting on the line and you need to evaluate based upon the reality of the situation. We are talking about an extremely young line. You have to look at the actual physical attributes and ability and project.

 

And being the person who thinks our line is better than advertised, I want to point out I'm about the only one here saying that moving Williams out of guard is ludicrious. And the talk of having him at left tackle is downright scary. Tice is a good coach (and a proven coach). He isn't a moron like it seems most everyone seems to think (and apparently thinks of every Bears coach even though some of them have been widelye successful in previous stints at their respected positions).

 

If I were to grade out, I'd actually say that Garza has played slightly above average at center. Spencer is around average. Louis played a few games at an above average level. He did have one horrendous game but that happens, especially when you are a rookie, and I think he projects into a guy that can be an above average guard. That gives you Williams, who was our best lineman this year (prior to going down), who is an average guard (as a pass blocker) and looks like he could be an above average run-blocker (his athletic ability gives the Bears a great opportunity to get there guards on the move and break some huge runs for a nifty back like Forte).

 

You throw Carimi at tackle and than you evaluate Webb. Webb is a physical beast and at times can shut-down above average lineman. The consistency just isn't there but you expect that with youth, especially when most of the line is youth. You don't have the veteran anchors to carry the line, but in time, they can get there. I think there is definitely room to draft another lineman and I would fully endorse drafting a book end left tackle if it was available in Rnd 1. But I would not draft a guard, I think between Williams, Spencer, and Louis, we have enough depth there. I think Webb is a nice depth player and Carimi deserves his shot at RT. Garza is fine at center (although I would fully endorse drafting someone we think could play there in time).

 

At wide-out, I think if you sign/pick-up 1 legit #1 plsu another wide-out, it will be widely beneficial to the line as well. Teams will actually think twice about blitzing as much as they do after Cutler burns them on some big plays. Right now the Bears have one starting wide-out (Bennett). That is horrendous. And I also point out that I don't want to evaluate tape with Hanie. Defenses overloaded the Bears consistently with Hanie at QB and Hanie put up statistically one of the worst 4 game stretches from a QB in NFL history. The line had zero chance to do anything worth a damn in that situation.

 

I'm not going to say our line is great right now but I don't see it as this major need. I think what they need is time to continue to gel/develop, Cutler back, a better offense around them, and Williams/Carimi back.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I agree with you that OL is still the greatest need, but disagree with some your player evaluation. I also get what DABEARSDABOMB is saying about experience and continuity.

 

Here's my talent eval:

 

Webb is bad = totally agree

Edwin Williams is bad, but he is the backup to an average player moving up to good in Chris Williams.

Garza is average = agree

Spencer is NOT bad, I have him at slightly below average with upside. Again though, he is the backup to Louis. IMO - Louis is average with tremendous upside as Guard. He is completely out of position at RT.

Louis=see above. Carimi is average with upside, as long as he stays at RT.

 

To me, all we need is a LT to come in and boot Webb. At that, we need to hit a homerun with the pick for the plan to be successful. If that occurs, Omiyale is gone forever and Webb is the swing tackle. I would also love to get lucky and steal Nicks from the Saints and draft an LT. This would afford us the luxury of Chris Williams as an LT while the younster develops. Then Edwin Williams is gone. Then next year, draft the center of the future.

Great post. I agree with the analysis above. I think Williams/Louis at guard would give the Bears an incredibly athletic set of guards that can get out and be very very effective run-blockers. Hell the Bears line in general did a nice job creating holes for Forte to break some huge runs.

 

LT is an area of need and I fully endorse going out and getting one (either via the draft in the 1st round or FA). I'd invest in wide-out first but I think both can be addressed. If I were going to fill my dream list of needs, it would be WR (we actually need 2 but give me a legit #1 and I'll be happy), LT (1st round or FA), DE (I love our dt rotation with Melton, Paea, Okoye, etc, but we need another guy that can rush that passer and take over for Pepp in a few years), CB (ours are getting older), LB (need to start looking for replacements).

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I'm not sure where you get off by saying Roberto Garza is average. He's been borderline elite for most of the season with only 2 penalties and 1 sack allowed. How is that average? Edwin Williams has not given up a sack in his 5 games as a starter, and Chris Spencer has only allowed 0.5 sack on the year. Jamarcus Webb, and Lance Louis (Post Jay Cutler) have been by far the worst performers on this line, giving up a combined 20 sacks. The other guys have not been as bad as you claim.

 

 

My turn..

 

Roy Williams: 27 rec 366 only 1 TD. Beyond bad- Won't be on a roster next season.

Devin Hester: 25 rec 355 only 1 TD. Not a WR

Johnny Knox: 37 rec 727 yards only 2 TD's. Slight step up from beyond bad

Dan Sanzenbacher: 21 rec 198 yards 3 TD's. Beyond Bad- won't be on the roster next season

Sam Hurd- 40 years in prison

 

Here's the kicker.

 

Matt Forte- 52 rec 490 yards 1 TD in 12 games. It should go without saying that if our RB is tallying up more yards and targets than our starting WR's, and has been for a number of years, it's time to get a new group of receivers.

 

With Cutler back under center, and Carimi and Williams back healthy this line is not terrible and they are not bad. Keep in mind we will be running a system without Mr. 7 step drop next year which will only make it easier for the offensive line to block more consistently throughout a game. Hopefully we'll have someone that will allow Cutler to audible which would then give him even more freedom to dictate the type of blocking he wants from his line-- something he's unable to do with this offense.

I'd also argue that Cutlers mobility and quick release would make an average oline look above average so if the Bears can put together an average oline it would be a nice start (especially given the youth that that Bears have on the line).

[DABEARSDABOMB]

Watching the games doesn't really tell the whole story when one of the 2 first round picks on the line has played what, 1 quarter this season?

 

The line actually even, IMO, played quite well for about 4-6 games in there, when the Bears hit that winning streak and Martz had good run/pass balance going. In particular, they were mauling people on the run to the right side by getting Williams out in front and having Webb seal off the back. But then, they lost Williams.

 

Next year in July, if the Bears do absolutely nothing, their O-Line will have 2 extra first round picks in it, will be deeper, and will have everyone with another year of experience. These are all big benefits. The only real debate I can buy from anyone is whether or not something can be done to upgrade over Webb. If the Bears are going to invest heavy FA dollars in the O-line, then I can see an upgrade happening there...but a new starting LT still winds up being my third or fourth priority on the list for the offseason (WR, DE, backup Tackle to replace Omiyale, backup QB). And I really don't like the idea of replacing Webb with a first round draft pick, because I think you actually will lose a lot if you try to stick a rookie in at that spot compared to a guy who has had to be on an island in the Bears O for 2 years now

The line produced during that winning streak and was getting better each and every week. Than Williams and Cutler go down and things change. Hanie runs around and puts up one of the worst 4 game stretches in NFL history out of a QB and people are throwing the line under the bus. How the hell can you evaluate anyone on the offense with that garbage. Bennett was rolling and looks like he's dead because Hanie sucks too. I'm not about to throw Bennett under the bus.

 

My point is, the line was making a lot of progress, has a lot of youth, and has shown an ability to get better. They have a need at LT because Webb is so damn inconsistent (but I don't want some mediocre LT, I'd want a book-end LT or a guy with that sort of upside).

[balta1701-A]

because Webb is so damn inconsistent (but I don't want some mediocre LT, I'd want a book-end LT or a guy with that sort of upside).

Let's also remember...Webb is a 23 year old in his 2nd season in the NFL. Even top 5 picks tend to be fairly inconsistent when they're 23 and barely into the NFL. If you're going to try to replace him in the first round...you're likely to continue seeing inconsistent play there for at least a year or two, because that is the norm even for really good rookie LT's.

 

If you're replacing him, it ought to be a guy who can step in immediately and just own that position for a while. It needs to be a major, FA upgrade. If the Bears are just going to spend like crazy this offseason, that's not a bad move, but that's the level it needs to be at if it's going to happen, and it shouldn't be so much that it prevents the Bears from addressing other positions.

 

The reason to make that move is that Cutler, Forte, and the defense are ready to win right now, and Webb might still need a couple years. That's got to be the biggest motivation. But that also means that a draft pick at that spot has the same problems...not being ready to win now.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Put it this way: the Lions OL is as good (or as bad) as the Bears is. So, would Stafford be good without his elite WR (Johnson), good WR (Burleson), decent WR (Young), and good TE (Pettigrew)? No. Therefore, if you surround your QB will great skill guys, the OL doesn't seem as bad.

[Bears4Ever_34]

Put it this way: the Lions OL is as good (or as bad) as the Bears is. So, would Stafford be good without his elite WR (Johnson), good WR (Burleson), decent WR (Young), and good TE (Pettigrew)? No. Therefore, if you surround your QB will great skill guys, the OL doesn't seem as bad.

If we were to switch receiving cores with each other for a season, Cutler would be leading the MVP voting right now.

[ParkerBear7]

I heard the argument from you for years about how our wide receivers were good. They were and always have been bad. You are completely overreacting on the line and you need to evaluate based upon the reality of the situation. We are talking about an extremely young line. You have to look at the actual physical attributes and ability and project.

 

And being the person who thinks our line is better than advertised, I want to point out I'm about the only one here saying that moving Williams out of guard is ludicrious. And the talk of having him at left tackle is downright scary. Tice is a good coach (and a proven coach). He isn't a moron like it seems most everyone seems to think (and apparently thinks of every Bears coach even though some of them have been widelye successful in previous stints at their respected positions).

 

If I were to grade out, I'd actually say that Garza has played slightly above average at center. Spencer is around average. Louis played a few games at an above average level. He did have one horrendous game but that happens, especially when you are a rookie, and I think he projects into a guy that can be an above average guard. That gives you Williams, who was our best lineman this year (prior to going down), who is an average guard (as a pass blocker) and looks like he could be an above average run-blocker (his athletic ability gives the Bears a great opportunity to get there guards on the move and break some huge runs for a nifty back like Forte).

 

You throw Carimi at tackle and than you evaluate Webb. Webb is a physical beast and at times can shut-down above average lineman. The consistency just isn't there but you expect that with youth, especially when most of the line is youth. You don't have the veteran anchors to carry the line, but in time, they can get there. I think there is definitely room to draft another lineman and I would fully endorse drafting a book end left tackle if it was available in Rnd 1. But I would not draft a guard, I think between Williams, Spencer, and Louis, we have enough depth there. I think Webb is a nice depth player and Carimi deserves his shot at RT. Garza is fine at center (although I would fully endorse drafting someone we think could play there in time).

 

At wide-out, I think if you sign/pick-up 1 legit #1 plsu another wide-out, it will be widely beneficial to the line as well. Teams will actually think twice about blitzing as much as they do after Cutler burns them on some big plays. Right now the Bears have one starting wide-out (Bennett). That is horrendous. And I also point out that I don't want to evaluate tape with Hanie. Defenses overloaded the Bears consistently with Hanie at QB and Hanie put up statistically one of the worst 4 game stretches from a QB in NFL history. The line had zero chance to do anything worth a damn in that situation.

 

I'm not going to say our line is great right now but I don't see it as this major need. I think what they need is time to continue to gel/develop, Cutler back, a better offense around them, and Williams/Carimi back.

 

 

 

In addition to what you said about the WR position; currently the Bears do not have a complete threat at WR on this team which is why this is an area of need. Knox is fast and can take the lid off the D but was not used to his strengths, he is not physical and does not attack the ball and is a inconsistent route runner. Hope he recovers from his injury but we need real threats here and now. Love Bennett but he gets hurt a lot but like his reliable hands and smart route running. Hester drops too many passes and its clear he is not a full time WR. When these are the only WR worth talking about on this team you know it is the weakest unit by far. We need to get Jay some real NFL play-making WR and get Kellen Davies more involved in the "O", this guy could be a beast if better utilized.

[jason]

Not really. It's actually the greatest measuring stick to success. What's the worst two things that can happen to you as an offensive lineman? Allowing a sack or committing a penalty. You can ignore the sacks allowed if you want but the proof is in the pudding. Webb has allowed 11 sacks and has committed 12 penalties, while Lance Louis has allowed 8.5 sacks and committed 3 penalties. In the three games the great Frank Omiyale played in, he manage to give up 4 sacks and committed 6 penalties. The rest of the guys you mentioned, have only allowed 1.5 sacks and have only committed 7 penalties (4 from Spencer). Would you not agree that those 3 have played better than Lance Louis and Jamarcus Webb?

 

Those are plays that don't have statistics attached to them. If you are going off of the eye test then that isn't a very good tactic to use in a debate. Just saying.

 

I never got a chance to see any of the Seahawks game so I can't contend against your analysis of that game. But as I've said in the past, I really would be hesitant to use the games that Cutler/Forte never played in as good evaluators for the line. I'm not saying you CANT do it but I don't see the point. There's a reason why the line's play has drastically declined over the past several weeks and his name is Caleb Haine.

 

The Garza assessment caught my eye the most. I just wanted to make a point that some of those guys you said that were playing bad, really weren't.

 

I can understand that you were caught off guard with the Garza analysis. I think that it's just a matter of someone looking competent around incompetency. But we Bears fans have gotten so used to shit on the OL that we see average as much more than what it is.

 

As for the sack thing, we'll just agree to disagree. It's only part of the picture. And the entire reason I decided to evaluate the OL in the Seahawks game was to avoid the whole "eye test" and try to quantify what they were actually doing. Analyzing those plays, all plays, actually is a good way to debate. It's much more complete than simply using sacks. It's not my problem the statistics for OL aren't as wide-spread and posted everywhere. If someone gives up 0 sacks but opens zero running lanes, then I don't see that as a good game. But the sack stat sure would paint that picture. Also what I did post earlier is on NFL.com (i.e. sacks, QB hits, negative rushing plays) and clearly display they have been bad this year.

 

Maybe you're right about the effort of tracking plays and analyzing the OL. Maybe it is pointless in the grand scheme of things. But since there is nothing else out there that I've seen that gives a more complete idea of what the OL has done as a whole, then I thought it was worth it. Regardless of what QB is in there, if the QB gets rocked on a 3-step drop, you can quantify that. And it has nearly nothing to do with the QB. The same goes for running holes and defensive players in the backfield. Having bad offensive players in the game may affect how the D plays, but it shouldn't have too much affect on whether or not the OL can hold a block for 2 seconds. No matter which QB is in there, if a block isn't held for 2 seconds on a passing play, then you can count that as an OL failure.

[jason]

I'd also argue that Cutlers mobility and quick release would make an average oline look above average so if the Bears can put together an average oline it would be a nice start (especially given the youth that that Bears have on the line).

 

Which I believe was happening when Cutler was playing really well and Martz adjusted the play-calling. It made the below average line look average at times, and gave everyone a false sense of hope.

[jason]

Put it this way: the Lions OL is as good (or as bad) as the Bears is. So, would Stafford be good without his elite WR (Johnson), good WR (Burleson), decent WR (Young), and good TE (Pettigrew)? No. Therefore, if you surround your QB will great skill guys, the OL doesn't seem as bad.

 

Can we please quit with this ridiculous comparison? The Lions have given up less sacks and are only two QB hits different than the Bears and they've thrown 200 more passes. Add to that the fact that they have way more experience, no lineman drafted after the fourth round (2 first-rounders), and the comparison is even more offbase.

 

The Lions OL is unequivocally better than the Bears OL. Just stop it.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

If we were to switch receiving cores with each other for a season, Cutler would be leading the MVP voting right now.

That's what I'm saying. Get him some WR's, one of which will hopefully be elite, and that can help the OL along.

 

Can we please quit with this ridiculous comparison? The Lions have given up less sacks and are only two QB hits different than the Bears and they've thrown 200 more passes. Add to that the fact that they have way more experience, no lineman drafted after the fourth round (2 first-rounders), and the comparison is even more offbase.

 

The Lions OL is unequivocally better than the Bears OL. Just stop it.

Didn't you just say sacks are only part of the picture?

[jason]

Didn't you just say sacks are only part of the picture?

 

Yes, I did. But I'm not going to watch Lions games to do a play-by-play. A team that has thrown that many more times and has less sacks, regardless of how incomplete a stat that is, is not as bad as the Bears. No freaking way. If the Bears had that number of throws, they'd have to set up an ER room on the sideline for the ten QBs a year they'd eventually use.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Yes, I did. But I'm not going to watch Lions games to do a play-by-play. A team that has thrown that many more times and has less sacks, regardless of how incomplete a stat that is, is not as bad as the Bears. No freaking way. If the Bears had that number of throws, they'd have to set up an ER room on the sideline for the ten QBs a year they'd eventually use.

But, the Bears don't need that number of throws with a guy like Forte. Hell, even Bell is a better RB than Kevin Smith.

 

Look, you know I agree with you that the OL sucks. My problem is this: the FO won't quit on any of these OL just yet, besides maybe Spencer at OG so he can be used primarily as a backup C and OG, and a SLIM chance on Webb if a great FA LT or rookie LT falls in their lap.

 

Also, don't forget, maybe it's because the Bears DL sucks, but the OL the Packers sent out last night was absolutely horrendous, and the Bears got no pressure. If you surround Cutler with talent like the Packers have for Rodgers, the flaws of the OL don't show quite as much.

[jason]

But, the Bears don't need that number of throws with a guy like Forte. Hell, even Bell is a better RB than Kevin Smith.

 

Look, you know I agree with you that the OL sucks. My problem is this: the FO won't quit on any of these OL just yet, besides maybe Spencer at OG so he can be used primarily as a backup C and OG, and a SLIM chance on Webb if a great FA LT or rookie LT falls in their lap.

 

Also, don't forget, maybe it's because the Bears DL sucks, but the OL the Packers sent out last night was absolutely horrendous, and the Bears got no pressure. If you surround Cutler with talent like the Packers have for Rodgers, the flaws of the OL don't show quite as much.

 

Now, on all of this I agree.

 

They won't quit on the OL. They should.

 

The DL doesn't suck, it's just undercoached. I've been saying this ever since Lovie got into town. The way the defense is coached is not an attacking style beneficial to DLinemen. Unless there is a Tommie Harris type, the DL ends up being block-occupiers for LBs. This is not a problem when the DTs are Ted Washington and Keith Traylor. It is a problem otherwise.

 

And, yes, I agree that if the Bears had a collection of good WRs the flaws on offense would be minimized somewhat. But I still think we'd have a glaring problem on OL that would minimally protect the QB and open occasional holes. We certainly wouldn't see the Bears' QB sitting in the pocket all day like Rodgers did last night. We'd still see a ton of pressure, but at least Cutler would be able to chuck some bail-out throws while under pressure.