BearFan PHX

sure when theyre tricking people out, but in your base defense, I cant think of one with a CB setting the edge? Anyway, I think Eberflus wants bigger guys than Turner, but Turner is probably the best 3rd down pass rusher of the bunch.

from a flexibility standpoint I understand what youre saying, but from a schematic point of view, every defense needs to identify one player on each side of the field that is responsible for "contain" meaning that you dont have to make the tackle, but you have to stay outside the ballcarrier so that they evade you back into the teeth of the defense, and cant flank the entire defense up the sideline for a big gain. In Eberflus' 4-3 zone scheme, the LBers drop so the DEs have containment responsibilities. So they have to be big enough to set the edge. Also, because they need to take a beat and respect that run containment assignment, thats why we say a cover 2 scheme needs a 3T, because the DEs are a little less abrupt upfield on regular downs, and an active DT makes up the difference in pressure. In a 3-4 scheme, one of the 2 OLBs can be a big physical edge setter, like Mack was, but the other one can be light like Floyd was, because the opposite side DE in that case has contain. It's like Mack and the other 3 DL are the front 4, and the edge LB that isnt big, is like a 4-3 over or under LB, shifted over to that side. So if you put a light DE who doesnt play the run well in a 4-3 zone front, youd need to ask the LB on that side to take containment responsibility and thats basically like blitzing with a zone behind it which is asking to get burned. THe only way that would work is if you have a monster DT who can play wide and set that edge. I suppose it's possible, but Ive never seen a scheme that was built that way? It'd almost be like your DT was stunting to DE as your base defense.

for sure. If one of the blue chip OT, DL or WRs are available at 9, we should grab them. Having our LOT and ROT set for the next 10 years would be massive for Caleb and our running game. Im hoping someone falls, but i suspect we are gonna trade down to 11 to 18 ish and pickup someone from that 1b tier. I feel like the guys we all want are gone by 8?

absolutely. Football is played, and won, by football players.

Maybe they will surprise us, I just don't see Eberflus taking a light DE. Not that Turner isnt talented or anything like that.

well you surely cant fill a team with only first round picks, so your point is well taken. But when you look for less than obvious players, some teams take those amazing athletes that arent football players, and Poles seems to take players, even as their RAS scores are still high. I cant think of any other workout warriors that cant play on our team.

lol

If we even like Turner for this defense though. Otherwise, I think you're looking at Fashanu, Verse, Thomas - which is why a trade down from 9 to say, 13 to 18ish makes sense, then we can look at those same guys, including the DTs, not overpay, and pick up something extra as a bonus. I dont think we trade down FOR that bonus tho. If one of the 3 WRs, or the right OT or DL is there, we take them, it's just I dont think Turner is as good for us, as he is in general for other teams given his size and style of play, and if we're taking someone else from that 1b tier, then we might as well move down a couple slots to do it. but if Odunze or Nabers is there, we will probably take them. I think we may have been talking to the OT from Yale to investigate those area of players in a trade down. He could be the extra guy we get for taking #9 down a few slots. Then again, Verse's stock is rising, and he might be perfect at #9 depending on how the market is firming up.

yeah thats what Im saying - that Poles doesnt just draft for RAS scores, although he does seem to like that kind of player, but they are also productive players. I love "Rudys" like Sanborn, but I prefer high character high motor athletes who are also intense football players like Sandborn. So Im greedy, I want both

agree with all of that, and Allen is new, so we are all still getting used to the new guys. I cant tell you the new FS's first name at all.

Keenan Allen Also, you can add LOT and interior OL to the mix of continued needs. We wont quite be a complete roster this year, but we will be next year.

no doubt you gotta develop them - for example Dexter was in no way NFL ready when he started last year with that slow get off, but they coached him up. But my point was, that he was always a football player, and not just an athlete. The opposite example would be a player with great get off who wasnt strong and didnt win battles. Trying to coach that up would be much more difficult, and weve seen it fail many times in the NFL. Velus Jones is an example of an athlete who isnt a player.

I totally agree, thats why I said what I said about it not being what I predict or even what Id do myself - just showing some love for those players and what they could bring I mean I kinda added them BOTH in addition to Caleb and an OT at #9 lol

I think Poles definitely takes high RAS score guys, but they also have to be football players. In the past we've had GMs that fall in love with physical skills that werent football players. Hester is an example. He's a hall of fame returner, but he couldnt play WR or DB to save his life. I think Fields and Daniels are like this too - great athletes, but not natural football players at their positions. So I think Poles grades guys three ways: RAS, football playmaking and Bear culture. When he finds guys that are all three, he's got a winning pick. Other GMs have tried to take guys who had high scores in one area but not the other, and it usually doesnt work out. The idea that you can coach a guy into being an NFL player is less true than these coaches and GMs around the league often think it is. You gotta start with a football player, and of course they need talent and character too.

Truth. Turner is really an OLB type edge. His "type' is like Leonard Floyd, although I think Turner is a better player than Floyd. Eberflus really is a 4-3 kind of guy. He is gonna want a DE that can play on first and second down too. This is part of why they say that the 3T makes the cover 2 go. Because you need DEs that can play contain on the run, because your LBs are back in zone, and you need to collapse the pocket a bit more from the DTs, since the DEs have to respect the run for a beat longer without LBers playing contain on the edge. This is why I think Verse is a much better fit for Eberflus. If we go DL, I think it'll be verse or even a 3T before it'd be Turner.

There are a few players on the interior OL I'd LOVE to have. I don't think they will be our choices, because they are interior players, but they will be available at correct value for when we pick especially if we trade down #9. Again, I'm not predicting this is what we are going to do, or even what I would do, since DE, WR and OT seem important for us too and are more valuable positionally. I just want to give a little love to Taliese Fuaga I see this guy as a replacement for Jenkins. He's thought of as an OT, more of a run blocker than a blind side protector though. Maybe more of a right tackle road grader type. Same story as Jenkins. He would make an amazing truly dominant guard to run behind. Someone is going to win a bunch of games on the ground behind this guy. I think he also has really long arms for those who fetishize that LOL Jackson Powers Johnson Another road grading run blocker who also has protection skills. A dominant leader who makes holes. Imagine our current team with Caleb, an upgrade at LOT AND both of those two guys in the interior. Damn, we'd be regular superbowl visitors. I know we will probably get neither, and if we get Fuaga, he wont be playing guard initially, but i just wanted to show these two some love, because I have a soft spot in my heart for dominant bruising run blockers. Imagine having a dominant passing game AND being able to bully teams in the run game. Defenses would be screwed.

we are looking to replace him, and also add a quality WR and DL - we wont be able to do them all, I agree, but if the right OT fell, we might well pick him. That means that overall our roster is more filled out than it was when we took Braxton as a 5th rounder. That's all Im saying - that the average talent of the roster is increasing and having more 5th and 6th round picks will yield fewer starters for us than they would have 2 years ago, so they are less valuable to us now, and we are entering a phase where we might start trading up this year, or more likely next year. Poles has us in rhythm of good talent resupply, instead of the horrible place we used to be where we were patching holes everywhere with 5th rounders etc.

Jones may get some reps at WR, and who knows what Waldron can get him to do well, but I was talking about KR here.

I hope so! It's a whole new rule and staff, so if they keep him, I'll give him a fresh look in the new circumstances, but i won't be shocked if we want to move on from him either? You can't teach speed, and he's cheap, so why not give them a chance to see what they can do with him? But I sure hope they have a plan B too.

I almost always agree with your analysis, mostly just because its excellent LOL but in this case I'm not sure. I don't think the new rules really make muffing a kickoff any less dangerous or costly? And Velus coughs the ball up on contact a lot too. And I think he's a dummy LOL But he is definitely a fast dummy!

the only thing is, once your roster gets to a certain point, starter quality means better than 3rd round. Thats when having a bunch of 6th rounders isnt helpful anymore. Our cupboard has been so bare (Bear?) for so long, we are used to the idea that getting prospects in the 5th and 6th round are crucial, but for example, we can ride with Braxton Jones now, a total example of a 5th round success, but were looking to replace him now. Not because hes bad, but because hes not a first or second round talent. We are nearing the point where trading up will be somewhat normal for us too.

I agree with allo this analysis, and your earlier analysis about blue chippers. So while this particular argument does lean toward WR, I think we take the best of WR, OT or DE that either falls to us at 9, or a short trade down into the teens. I think at this point it's harder to predict based on position, and will rely more on the grades and fit they have for each player, which we wont know? But somewhere above pick 20, we will take WR, OT or DE. And after that there will still be a long term need at the other two, but we can field a team now with what we have too, with Caleb and one of that group.

yeah they can hold out and reenter the draft the next year (and get drafted by another bad team LOL) but once they declare for the draft, they cant go back to college. the best leverage is to have been drafted by a pro baseball or basketball team. Then you can just say youll go play another sport if the team you dont want drafts you

it is definitely causing that problem, but it will only be a problem this year. Going forward, more players will wait a year to come out, but they will enter the draft eventually. So this is the only year that pays the price for everyone to shift back one year?

I agree that PFF is total trash. By the time their "impartial grading data" makes it through their tortured algorithms, it comes out basically noise. However, I do think the lower rounds of this year's draft are still more barren of talent than most years because of the NIL situation delaying underclassmen this year. Going forward, the drafts will be regular again, even as underclassmen stay because this years underclassmen will be in next years draft. It's like 2024 is a negative leap year for draft talent.