Lucky Luciano

i have to wonder.... how good this team would be if more than ONE first day pick in 7 years were starting on offense. not to mention, it took THREE first day picks at the same position in 4 years to fill that specific spot.

i have to disagree that every scheme can be good if players just execute. in my opinion any scheme is dependant upon players executing as you stated. that is a given. but... having the right personel to run it is paramount to any schemes success. if you run a cover 2 specific types of players are key to it's success. 1) you need tackles to push in the pocket and pressure the qb. 2) you need a good mlb who can cover a lot of ground and cover up the middle. 3) you need corners who can play tight on the LOS and move the recievers into the center of the field and who are also good at stopping the run. in this cover 2 we seem to want to run we don't have the corners to do it consistantly and it shows. our corners are playing 5-10 yds off the LOS because they CAN'T play bump and run with the quicker receivers. that is one reason why the slants and crossing routes make such good yardage against us all day long. i like peanut a lot and he excels at what he was drafted for... covering the big receivers like moss. his problem is he can't cover the speedsters, thus the big cushion. that is why over the years i have screamed for him to be moved to free safety and bring in a solid cover corner who CAN play bump and run at the LOS. vasher is another corner who can't play up because he gets eaten alive by quick/fast wide outs. and finally, good safeties are paramount in the cover 2... you need FAST and smart safeties who have the ability to make up large distances to either help your corner in coverage or lock down that zone on their own. this we DON'T have. brown was at one time smart enough to compensate for lack of speed. but has he lost even more due to his knee injury to where it just is not enough to be smart? i don't know. i do know all of our other safeties are seriously lacking in multiple area's. i also agree with your opinion that the cover 2 is used probably about 40% of the time. in fact i would say even less. this makes it even more critical to have corners who can cover man. so to me, this is where good coaching vs bad coaching becomes a factor. if he doesn't or can't adjust or change his "scheme" to the players he is forced to put on the field he, in my opinion, is a poor coach and has no business collecting a pro league paycheck. it is also true that even with the personel needed to run the type of "scheme" that he wants, he HAS to be able to make adjustments to compensate for real-time game situations. this not only means making adjustments at half time but throughout the game as it progresses. if he can't see or compensate for these real-time situations he is limiting the team's full potential to only one half of football or less. i think many could say that this is a real problem in chicago on both sides of the ball.

it's a bit early to throw the baby out with the bathwater. orton has started only five games (excluding his rookie year). like any young qb he has made some bad decisions and had some accuracy problems but i think it's way to early to sum up his career at this point. i disagree orton has to be able to throw deep balls for this team to succeed. what he HAS to do is be accurate in the 10-15 yard range, he has to hit his receivers in stride in the 5-10 yard patterns and let the receivers make YAK. one other thing i want to mention... i look at our arial attack and it seems to me that many if not MOST of our passing plays to our wideouts require the receiver to reach a spot, stop, turn and catch the pass (and usually be tackled immediately). they are not DESIGNED to hit a player in stride. they are not DESIGNED to give your receivers the best chance at YAK. although this may be fine to beat some zone coverages at times in a game, this to me is not how you want to set up the bastardized type of west coast offense we try to run. this also holds true on these horrible sideline passes we keep throwing game after game after game to no ones surprise. to sum it up, i think orton HAS shown some very good things. not enough to say he is a lock as a starting qb in the nfl but enough to show with some work it is POSSIBLE for him to become a #1. on a final note: i also am not convinced this coaching staff has scripted a complete game plan to help him out either.

this is dej a vu all over again. this whole game looked almost exactly the same as it has over the last 2 years without any improvement on our play calling. we get a lead or keep it close the first half only to completely collapse in the second on offense. i''m sorry but that is play calling and coaching. is there something i am missing, in that orton does not throw anything close to a high percentage ball down field at this point in his career, yet we waste 2 critical downs making THAT point the hard way? this game looked like it was schemed to have grossman as our qb and not orton. is there some reason we keep throwing these sideline passes to our wideouts for '0' yards time after time? if i recall correctly it was 5-6 times in this game we try the same play that got us nothing before with the same results. has anyone tallied up how many tackles paine has missed over the last 2 games? how about mcgown? with strong safety play like this is it any wonder we get run on? while i'm at it, where is paine on coverage plays? two to three yards in limbo. where is mike brown in coverage? is vasher even AVERAGE? special teams, returns, were absolutely brutal today. poor decision making and penalties killed us. our offense nearly started every down in the second half inside their own 10 yard line. what a thoroughly disgusting performance today.

well, then i WILL say it... CHEAP IS A POSSIBILITY!! i have not only argued it is a >>>POSSIBILITY to keep giving the worn out justification that this franchise is somehow a big money player by paying large amounts of signing bonus money is untrue. the nfl doles out the money every year to pay player salaries, including these large bonus's, period! it is also untrue to say we have ever paid a head coach BESIDES wanny big bucks (who incidentely was when MIKEY was running the show) is also untrue. it is also untrue to state that our scouting dept. is large or well paid and is undocumented and unproven. so go ahead and think that this franchise is cheap if you want to until 'REAL' facts prove you are wrong.

i agree he will never end up on the practice squad and another team will pick him up. there is no way the bears go with 2 qb's into the season if they have half a brain, and hanie looks very good as a qb to develop into a possible future starter. the only knock at all i had on him was him staring down receivers which is very coachable and comes with experience. other than that he looks like he has been doing it in the nfl for 10 yrs!!

1) this leads me to ask... was there any steroids prescribed for his recovery over the last 3 years? has he had cortizone injections and if so how many (there is a limit how many you can safely have in one area per year or even ever?)? will he need steroid therapy or other types of drugs after his surgery? 2) this leaves at LEAST a 5-10+% chance he will never play football again due to an unsuccessful disk operation. 3) this also leaves a 10% chance that another herniated disk will occur in this same area. does anyone know whether williams was even CHECKED for stenosis? was williams subjected to an MRI of his spine at the combine or after by the bears? did the bears hire neurological doctors to check him prior to the draft for any neurological damage? or was dr. angelo just hoping for the best trying to get another bargain? i would also like to emphasize the problems with this type of injury... weakness of the extremities such as legs, a reoccurrence of debilitating pain or other disk damage that ‘could’ last for weeks at a time, as someone else has stated this is the absolute worst position in all football for this type of injury. not only is heavy training such as lifting massive amounts of weights as required for offensive linemen not good for this condition neither is his actual job description in which he is bent over and lifting/pushing dead weight defensive linemen and not using his legs to bear the weight in most instances. it also is a requirement to lose weight for this type of injury and yet OL are expected to weigh over 300 lbs! his age is a plus for a “full” recovery but how hopeful is it to remain so in this type of work? case in point is if he worked through it in college why then the lapse that cause him to have surgery. in my opinion it was a very, very risky move by the bears to pick a player that high in the draft with those questions to be answered. maybe angie should have tried to move up in the draft for long and settled on not only the best OT in the draft but one who was healthy.

drafted some.... how many you ask? 1) in 7years angie drafted 2 projected LOT's in the 1st round 6 years apart. LOT was a critical need for this franchise the day he stepped off the plane at o'hare. anyone who thinks you can bring in a FA at that position that isn't at the very end of his career is dreaming. 2) in 7 years angie has NEVER drafted an offensive tackle of any sort in the 2nd round. our need for tackles on both ends has been in critical mode with the exception of tait in the fold who didn't even play at his probowl quality position (ROT). instead he let tait play an average game at LOT which negated the huge contract we offered him. yup real smart. angie also has NEVER drafted a guard in this round when this has been a critical need since he let villareal (sp) go in free agency and tucker was injured year after year. 3) angie has drafted ONE guard in round 3 SIX years ago and '0' tackles in 7 years. after 2 seasons metcalf could't cut it as a tackle or guard as plainly seen by anyone yet he was our drafted future starter/depth for this entire time. 4) angie drafted ONE guard/center in round 4 in 7 years and '0' tackles!! this was beekman in 2007. 5) angie drafted '0' guards or tackles in round FIVE in 7 years!!!! 6) angie drafted ONE guard or tackle in round 6 in 7 years!!!!!! this is beyond pathetic when your OL is considered not worthy of picks before the 7th round. to say angelo has drafted players at these positions and it could be a problem with our coaching staff is simply laughable. sure there are exceptions to the rule, but generally if you want quality tackles you draft them in the first three rounds. if you want average talented starting guards you draft them in rounds 4-5. if you want probowl quality guards you draft them on the first day. it's a total disgrace as a GM if you can't even draft guards!!! any coaching staff needs quality drafted players to work with. if you give them camp fodder from the 7th round to develop players from you have just tied BOTH hands behind their backs to start out with even if they ARE good coaches. what angie has done is bring in other teams proven players in FA to fill in the gaps because he DOESN'T draft them or know a good one from a bad one. this leaves us with either super high priced players like tait or cast offs because of age or injury like miller, brown, and garza. this gives us a 2-3 year window for our line to work together before the FA's are burned out. there is NO continuity of players playing together and it shows. ask kreutz. 1) coaching on the offensive side of the ball has BEEN a problem in chicago for 50 years!! we lowball defensive minded head coaches and hire cheap offensive coordinators to compliment him. can anyone be surprised our offensive coaches are 2nd or 3rd rate?? we have never even had an OC go to another team in the nfl and even be good enough to coach at the same position he did in chicago let alone become a head coach. it's a joke. 2) angelo a defensive genius? for XXX's sake we only have 3-4 defensive players he has drafted in 7 years good enough to start!! that's genius? also if you keep drafting the same position players over and over again in the first 5 rounds you are bound to find a few don't you think? 3) the difference between drafting offensive players and getting them through FA is critical. although the players you bring in may be proven they eat up your cap space for good young ones and limit your choice on others to lesser talent or aging or injured vets because they are cheap enough to fit into your cap scenario. if you get them through the draft you have players playing together over a period of years which is a major plus and if they are good + you have averaged their rookie contracts out with their high resigning money instead of just paying the maximum amount like we did tait.

beck turns 27 years old in 2 weeks. not sure if this is a good situation for us to be in with him unless he looks capable and ready, similar to a manning or palmer, to get thrown into the mix.

to me a good GM builds the core of his starting teams through the draft. he then uses FA to fill in holes either due to injury, missing those FEW individual positions in the draft, or to enhance a superbowl run at a specific skill position that may be a weak link. special teams: other than kickers you should be able to fill your special teams with players you are grooming to take over a starting spot in the lineup or get them in the 5th - 7th rounds in the draft and even the walk-ons. the reasons why we have done so well with special team players is that angelo is missing at drafting high quality starting caliber players and coming up with tweaners or 2nd rate talent in the bulk of his drafts. when you have first day draft picks maxxing out talent wise on your special teams it is NOT a good situation. i don't know if you realize it but angelo's drafting almost 50/50 on first day draft picks, offense vs defense, over his tenure in chicago. if you wipe out half of your draft picks (offense) that is an amazing statistic. 2002-2007 4 to 2 offense in the 1st round and yet we have not a single penciled-in offensive starter out of our draft picks over a 6 year period. one on defense. 4 to 2 defense in the 2nd round and we have one penciled-in starter in tillman. 4 to 3 defense in the 3rd round and we have one penciled-in starter in briggs. that's 19 first day picks over a six year period and we have 3 starters on defense!! these are the quality rounds that drafted players could/should be able to start their rookie seasons and be future starters, not fatten up your special teams.

i'm not so sure he could. they don't have him listed as being the starter or announced it that i heard of. if he were, why give clark a new contract this offseason?

i agree. in my opinion angelo's drafts are not spectacular and the hard facts lie in the roster below. offense: not a SINGLE player angelo has drafted in 6 (this doesn't even count the 2008 season) years could be penciled as a 'sure thing' deserving starter this season. defense: 2 DE's (who play the same position) alex brown and mark anderson; 1 DT - tommie harris; 1 linebacker - lance briggs; 2 CB's - charles tillman and nathan vasher that totals 6 starters on this entire franchise that angie drafted that would be considered as sure starters on not only the bears but on most teams. Chicago Bears 2008 Roster No Name Pos Height Weight Age Exp Acquired 78 St. Clair, John T 6'5" 315 30 9 FA 76 Tait, John T 6'6" 312 33 10 FA 74 Williams, Chris T 6’6” 312 22 R 1st RD- 08 69 Barton, Kirk T 6’4” 305 23 R 7th RD- 08 79 Balogh, Cody T 6’6” 303 22 R U.D. - 08 63 Garza, Roberto G 6'2" 310 29 8 FA 67 Beekman, Josh G 6'2" 310 25 2 4th Rd - 07 60 Metcalf, Terrence G 6'4" 318 30 7 3rd Rd - 02 68 Oakley, Anthony G 6'4" 298 27 3 FA 64 Reed, Tyler G 6'4" 307 26 1 6th Rd – 06 72 Adams, Chester G 6’4” 325 23 R 7th RD - 08 70 Poles, Ryan G 6’4” 290 22 R U.D. - 08 57 Kreutz, Olin C 6'2" 292 31 11 3rd Rd - 98 65 Mannelly, Patrick LS 6'5" 265 33 11 6th Rd - 98 08 Grossman, Rex QB 6'1" 217 28 6 1st Rd - 03 18 Orton, Kyle QB 6'4" 217 25 4 4th Rd – 05 12 Hanie, Caleb QB 6’2” 225 22 R U.D. - 08 86 Booker, Marty WR 6'0” 210 30 10 3rd RD - 99 16 Bradley, Mark WR 6'2"198 26 4 2nd RD- 05 23 Hester, Devin WR 5'11" 186 26 3 2nd RD- 06 85 Bennet. Earl WR 6’ 203 21 R 3rd RD - 08 81 Davis, Rashied WR 5'9" 187 29 4 FA 80 Lloyd, Brandon WR 6’ 194 27 6 FA 84 Rideau, Brandon WR 6'3" 200 26 2 FA – 06 83 Hass, Mike WR 6'1" 206 25 2 U.D. 15 Grice-Mullen, Ryan WR 5’11” 180 21 R U.D. 19 Monk, Marcus WR 6’4” 212 22 R 7th RD- 08 88 Clark, Desmond TE 6'3" 249 31 10 FA 82 Olsen, Greg TE 6'5" 254 23 2 1st RD - 07 87 Davis, Kellen TE 6’7” 262 22 R 5th RD- 08 49 Stone, Marcus TE 6’2” 235 23 R U.D. 89 Mines, Fontel TE 6'4" 244 23 1 U.D. 22 Forte, Matt RB 6’2” 216 22 R 2nd RD- 08 27 Jones, Kevin RB 6’ 228 25 5 FA 25 Wolfe, Garrett RB 5'7" 186 24 2 3rd RD - 07 29 Peterson, Adrian RB 5'10" 210 29 7 6th RD - 02 47 Pope, P.J. RB 5'9" 212 24 2 U.D. 37 McKie, Jason FB 5'11" 245 28 7 U.D. 39 Polite, Lousaka FB 6'0" 242 27 4 U.D. 93 Ogunleye, Adewale DE 6'4" 260 31 8 FA 96 Brown, Alex DE 6'3" 260 29 7 4th RD– 02 97 Anderson, Mark DE 6'4" 255 25 3 5th RD - 06 73 Bazuin, Dan DE 6'3" 260 25 1 2nd RD- 07 99 Baldwin, Ervin DE 6’2” 260 21 R 7th RD - 08 72 Clemond, Joe DE 6’2” 250 23 R U.D. 79 Osborn, Nick DE 6’4” 260 23 R U.D. 91 Harris, Tommie DT 6'3" 295 25 5 1st RD- 04 98 Dvoracek, Dusty DT 6'3" 303 27 1 3rd RD - 06 94 Harrison, Marcus DT 6’3” 310 24 R 3rd RD- 08 95 Adams, Anthony NT 6'0" 300 28 6 FA 71 Idonije, Israel DT 6'6" 275 28 5 FA 75 Toeaina, Matt DT 6'2" 307 26 1 FA 54 Urlacher, Brian MLB 6'4" 258 30 9 1st RD- 00 55 Briggs, Lance OLB 6'1" 240 28 6 3rd RD - 03 92 Hillenmeyer, Hunter OLB 6'4" 238 28 6 FA 53 Okwo, Michael LB 5'11" 232 23 1 3rd RD - 07 52 Williams, Jamar LB 6'0" 237 24 3 4th RD - 06 59 Wilson, Rod LB 6'2" 230 27 3 7th RD– 05 90 LaRocque, Joey LB 6’2” 226 22 R 7th RD- 08 58 McClover, Darrell LB 6'1" 226 27 5 U.D. - 07 53 Roach, Nick LB 6'0" 234 23 2 U.D. - 07 30 Brown, Mike FS 5'10" 207 30 8 2nd RD- 00 36 McGowan, Brandon SS 5'11" 207 25 4 U.D. 38 Manning, Danieal S 5'11" 198 26 3 2nd RD- 06 44 Payne, Kevin SS 6'0" 212 25 1 5th RD– 07 20 Steltz, Craig S 6’1” 210 22 R 4th RD- 08 43 Gattis, Josh S 6'1" 213 28 2 FA 45 Peters, Leonard S 6’1” 205 26 1 U.D. 33 Tillman, Charles CB 6'1" 196 27 6 3rd RD - 03 31 Vasher, Nathan CB 5'10" 183 27 5 4th RD - 04 26 McBride, Trumaine CB 5'9" 185 23 2 7th RD - 07 24 Manning, Ricky DB 5'9" 193 28 6 FA 21 Graham, Corey CB 6'0" 195 28 2 5th RD - 07 35 Bowman, Zackary CB 6’1” 193 23 R 5th RD– 08 32 Brown, Trey CB 5’9” 185 23 R U.D. 46 Majors, Leslie CB 5’9” 175 22 R U.D. 9 Gould, Robbie K 6'0" 183 26 4 U.D. 4 Maynard, Brad P 6'1" 188 34 12 FA

Longjohn Silver gets my vote. his pirating spin moves on a peg leg would be much smoother than miller's bullfighting spin techniques. thanks for the depth angelo. when you have to consider bringing back a dinosaur who nobody else even considered in the offseason, because he plays like crap at this point in his career, and you consider him better than any offensive lineman we currently have on our roster it is totally unbelievable. miller? uhhgg, i think i'm going to be sick.

i agree wholeheartedly. what the $%#@ is lovie thinking?? put your STARTING corner on the field with 2nd string players to field punts in a freakin pre-season game when the position is locked already by hester???? that is just plain stupid.

pix i am 100% in agreement. good arm, great touch on the ball, balls on target and very catchable, nice footwork, good pocket presence, good physical properties, and nice scrambling abilities. this kid looked like a seasoned vet out there. this kids play was exceptional. in fact i will say i want to see him get some playing time with the 2nd string offense next game. if he looks as good with the 2nds i want to see him get some time with the first squad in pre-season.

i would say this effectively ends his season and hopefully doesn't end his career. you are correct. disk problems are very serious and may not go away. a disk problem like this could in reality be a career ending situation. it could prevent him from heavy lifting which effects is strength not to mention could also effect his speed/legwork. for an offensive lineman who relies on strength and power on nearly every play by using his legs and lower back to block is a major concern long term. the whole situation of this being a "new injury" also sounds fishy to me. i would like to see the reports of what type of back problems other teams found in him that took him off their draft boards. another fine mess you've gotten us into angie.

i just can't believe that a situation like ours is going to remain stasis for years at a time. so for our franchise to look for/aquire a qb who doesn't have the arm strength to make those throws accurate or otherwise would be a huge mistake. i would also like to add that a five step drop and launch the ball downfield without waiting for a WR to reach this 25-30 yd depth before making the throw is realistic for a qb with a strong arm by him adjusting the trajectory of the pass to compensate for the WR getting into that zone. plus, even if you only throw long once or twice a game it keeps the safeties from playing tight and stuffing your run game if they know they 'can' get beat on a long scoring play. it opens up your running game and your short to medium passing game as well if a WR can clear them out of the short zones during a series even if used as a decoy. the DB's have to react immediately or get beaten by the WR on a deep route. agree, most are NOT downfield passes and the short to medium depth is the most proficient passing game. but... again, you need to also have it in the defenses mindset they need to be wary of the long ball too to open up these shorter routes. defenses at this time are stacking the box AND blitzing because rex has shown a flaw in his game by not being able to handle the pressure and/or recognize these packages as they develop. the offensive line also shares in this dilema with grossman as they are letting more defenders through than our backs and te's are able to pick up in their blocking duties. i want to also add that some of these blitzes are LB blitzes and the safeties are playing deep zones in passing situations. they are willing to give up the intermediate passing yardage to rattle him into an INT or a sack and at the worst they give up the 5-10 yd receptions by covering the long ball threat with deep safeties. if he couldn't at least throw a long ball they would just stack the box like they did against griese or other qb's like s. matthews who couldn't make the throws and force everything in an area 10-15 yds from the LOS.

the Oline also needs to open up passing lanes for the qb to make the throws. if the line is always back on it's heels or getting pushed into the pocket it doubles the problems for the qb especially if he doesn't roll out well. as far as TB... forget simms, i would like to pick up favre from them in a double trade.

here are the traits i consider that are needed to become a successful nfl quarterback: 1) first of all, he has to have the physical tools to excel at that position. he has to have the size, speed, attitude, and strength that past successful NFL players have PROVEN to be neccessary to play that position at the highest level. also, in my opinion, 6'1 is the absolute bare minimum in size for an nfl qb. 6'3" - 6'5" is the optimum size and what i would shoot for. 2) the most important attribute a qb with the basic physical tools can have is accuracy. without it he will fail miserably. this involves being able to think "quickly" in three dimentional space which is paramount to understanding in a fraction of a second where the ball has to go and getting it there in relation to the defenders and receivers, all in motion, with reasonable expectations of a completion. i have to disagree somewhat with your statement about the ability to throw the long ball. without arm strength to make the deep throw he limits the size of the field which will make it much, much harder to succeed in the nfl against todays defenses. even if he is inaccurate on a long ball it still keeps defenses honest if they know his arm is at least strong enough to make those types of passes. that said, a MUST in my opinion is to have enough arm strength to consistantly make accurate throws in the 10-20 yd range of the field. 3) mental aspects that are a must: A) he has to be able to feel pressure from the outside (that mental clock ticking the seconds off) and compliment it by stepping up into the pocket or release and scramble. without it he won't stay healthy or make the plays that are needed to succeed. although it's not neccessary to have the running abilities like a cunningham, vick etc. he does need to have the ability to roll out with authority and make short yardage when neccessary. the next is being able to read a defense and understand where and how the defense is going to react to the play he hopes to run and make the decision whether to run that play as designed or change it on the fly. usually this comes with game experience but more than a few fail to ever grasp this situation. C) he needs heart and a driving desire to win which includes the ability to lead his teamates.

you are correct. i did not explain very well what i was talking about. good job looking up the stats and facts. as cryptic, and i’ll give you exagerated, as my original post was in regards to my meaning maybe this will help... what i was referring to is the individual performance of the qb on this squad that we resigned - specifically *rex grossman (although i ‘think’ some of griese’s performances could fit into this persona as well), whom we extended a short term contract and i tried to compare it to angelo’s explanation as to why we went RB rather than picking a qb prospect: “the reason they didn't take QB is the organization thought RB was a much higher need”. although i didn’t research prior qb’s than the last 2 years i find it hard to believe that any starting qb, even for the bears, could have had a lower qb rating than a single digit or the unbelievable ‘0’ rating and still be touted as our possible starting qb the following seasons without any thought of change. forget the injury history, qb’s with ratings over a 2 year period like that are NOT in my opinion to be considered in any way a proven, elite, starter, someone you can count on or feel good about qb by any means. especially when that qb has been active for 4 – 5 years and you are still talking about potential. to bet your franchises season on qb’s like grossman and orton with no concern for future replacement if neither pans out is a poor, poor management practice and the same MO we have used for decades. *i put orton’s info in there also to show what he accomplished but i have to weight this considering the total amount of games and when those games occurred over the last 2 years. i also have to weight in the factor that they didn’t even consider orton an option when replacing an injured griese in mid season. that in itself should be testimony enough of what angelo thinks/thought of orton. it certainly isn’t inspiring, at least to me. below are some various stats over the last 2 years. i didn’t put in the fumble turnover stats as it related to grossman because the info i had didn’t include that stat. so, if i made some mistakes, feel free to correct me. 2006 - grossman 140.125 ave yds last 3/4 reg season total yds for reg season 3281 average 205 yds per game for reg season 8 fumbles for reg season JETS vs grossman 11 for 22 111 net yds passing - this includes 57 yds on one td pass to bradley OR 56 yds total for rest of game 0 INT's sacks - 1 for -8 yds -1 yd rushing qb rating - 79.9% CARDS vs grossman 14 of 37 130 net yds passing 4 INT's sacks - 2 for -14 yds -7 yds rushing qb rating 8.6% VIKES vs grossman in chicago 6 of 19 24 net yds passing sacks - 1 for -10 yds 3 INT's -9 yds rushing qb rating - 1.3% PACKERS vs grossman/griese game 2 grossman - 2 of 12 33 yds 3 INT's -1 yd rushing qb rating - '0' % griese - 5 of 15 124 yds - bradley 75 yd td pass - rest of game griese total was 49 yds 2 INT's 2 sacks in game for -13 yds how many single digit qb ratings? a qb rating of 46.9% 2007 - grossman total yds for reg season 8 games 1411 average 176 yds per game for reg season 6 fumbles for reg season the first games for grossman were bad and he was relieved by griese. the second few games he looked much better and more loose BUT again he got injured. BOLTS vs grossman 12 for 23 122 net yds passing 1 INT's sacks - 3 for -23 yds 0 td qb rating - 49.5% KC vs grossman 20 for 34 132 net yds passing 2 INT's sacks - 3 for -28 yds 1 td qb rating - 52.5% COWBOYS vs grossman 15 for 33 164 net yds passing 3 INT's sacks - 3 for -31 yds 0 td qb rating - 22.9% came back in after griese injured and played 4 games before he was injured again. orton came in game 13 and by that time the season was over for chicago. i can't say orton did poorly when he came in and the talent on defense he played against was pretty good with a possible exception of NO. i have to wonder why he was not put in to replace griese when grossman returned again before his injury. makes you wonder about the competence of the coaches and gm in this franchise. VIKES vs orton 22 for 38 177 net yds passing 1 INT sacks - 1 for -7 yds 0 td qb rating - 58.7% PACK vs orton game 2 - horrible conditions 9 for 15 104 net yds passing 0 INT sacks - 1 for -7 yds 1 td qb rating - 102.9% NO vs orton 13 for 28 199 net yds passing 1 INT sacks - 2 for -20 yds 3 td qb rating - 91.2%

thanks, that was the guy i couldn't remember, wesley. here is my thought on the process angelo used on wesley... he hires wesley away from being a special teams player who played behind ricky manning jr. and gives him supposedly a shot at the nickle slot in chicago. angelo THEN hires the guy who was ahead of wesley on the SAME team for considerably MORE money to compete for the same position. that's completely a slap in the face or lie on angelo's part to wesley. it's already almost a given, considering the amount of bonus and salary money, that manning jr. gets the job. it was a stupid move by angelo and certainly didn't give wesley the fair shake angelo promised. 1. i agree it should be a lot easier finding good running backs than good qb's (although finding good rb's doesn't seem to be angelo's case in chicago). but... in todays nfl the qb is the most important position on the entire team, bar none. if you have failed to find that guy, to keep looking should STILL be the top priority every year. just because a rookie qb may not start immediately is absolutely no reason not to keep drafting quality players if you have as pitiful a record of qb's like this franchise has had. even if it takes 3 years to get a quality qb into the lineup the end result will pay for itself tenfold if you have a franchise qb to play for your team another ten years. i will even say you should keep drafting good prospects even if you do have a quality franchise qb is a good practice. 2. agree one needs good talent around him. but you can also build your offense around that quality qb instead of waiting till everything else is in place to do so. surrounding him with talent is much easier to do with free agency that exists today and shouldn't be a deterrent. the benefits involved in this type of mindset is that the most important piece of the puzzle is under contract and you can then draft or acquire players to compliment him and his skills to the fullest extent instead of trying to find a qb to fit your existing scheme which is narrowing the field even more. 3. if benson was that big of a risk that you considered cutting him before camp then bring in an older free agent. in this day and age it's not that hard to find decent short term free agent rb's. then you can draft that qb prospect who you can groom until he is considered ready. if the qb's we have today actually do a miraculous turnaround you have a great draft prospect to keep in case of injury or a great trade possibility if he has shown good potential. if our qb's don't turn out we have their replacement who has learned our system already and we don't throw a rookie into the fire. i just don't see why this can't be done. some teams like the packers do this all the time.

i could be wrong, but didn't angelo give his word to the cb we got from the panthers days BEFORE we hired ricky manning jr. to play the same role? also, what evidence has angelo seen to make him remotely believe ANY of our qb's are even capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time let alone being capable nfl starters? these are some of the reasons angelo gives me cold sweats. our qb staff over the last 2 years produced the worst offensive stats in the history of a franchise whose known for the worst offenses over the last 50 years. yet angelo thinks a runningback was a much higher need??? this EVEN when benson was touted as being a viable starter by this franchises coaches and angelo himself before and after the draft? what dimension is he living in? it's mindboggling how this guy thinks!!

1. now would be the time to roll them dice for a ring and damn the cap for the next 3 years. there may not even be one after that amount of time anyway so if angelo gets the chance to sign a player that makes us a real contender for the superbowl immediately for the next 2-3 years and can't figure out a way to do it he's an idiot. if we wait to groom the crap (compared to favre) at qb we have now or have to draft another high first day pick, url, m. brown, ogie and peanut, tait, booker and kreutz are either going to be up there in age and falling in talent or just plain gone. so that leaves us hoping one of our qb's can even play average and nobody gets hurt on offense or defense to get to the championship game while they are still viable players. 2. agree and i hope turner was using this ploy because if he in truth really likes our qb situation more than bringing in a pro-bowl hall of fame qb even at his age he is a complete buffoon. 3. absolutely yes! if the vikes field even an aging qb with the talent favre has THEY contend for a superbowl spot instantly. plus, what would they have to lose by doing so? if they are going to be prosecuted by the nfl i say they go as a lion instead of the lamb anyway. my thoughts: i think favre knows more about football in the nfl than turner ever dreamed of and could over-rule stupid calls by our great OC on the field without too much feedback from our coaching staff. that also plays to an advantage of bringing him in. it's a win win situation for us to do so. some people on here seem to hate favre more than a world championship. i just don't see it. i hate the cowboys more than any team on earth but i still would have taken aikman any day of the week. i think favre has 2 years and >maybe

i don't see how we can pass on favre. even as old as he is he is so much better than anything on our squad at this point in time (or over the last 25 years for that matter) including the turnovers he brings. he immediately opens up our running game which everyone seems to want desperately by actually making our passing game something that has to be accounted for by opposing defenses. his style of football works perfectly with the personnel and scheme we now employ. he gets rid of the ball in a hurry which helps our struggling OL, a TE fits perfectly into his style of football and we have two decent to good ones, he has worked with a multitude of young and new wide receivers and improved their game immensely, he is actually a good onfield leader, he fits the age timeframe for our aging talented players final run at a superbowl. if angie doesn't at least make a play for him at this point he is stupid.

what i am 'suggesting' is that if that player going to that smaller, OR larger school for that matter, was not even on the radar as to the slot he was drafted, then i believe it IS >>'possible' is this some wild radical idea i pulled out of my hat? as radical an idea as this is, it happens with the #1 pick nearly every year. so is this so far fetched to believe it happens in other rounds? also, if players can be believed, this practice happened in chicago in the past. a phone call from our franchise asking if X player would sign for X money if they draft them in X slot in the draft. do i have hard facts if this is true or not? no, only the recollection of players stating this years ago and watching players negotiating on the phone draft day. i have a novel idea, why don't YOU provide some facts as to the monetary amounts for players that were drafted a round or MORE before expected to go by us and compare it to the players contracts paid in the slot before and after by other teams that same year. i'm more than happy to concede this point if you prove the price is right over the last 8-10 years. i would also like to comment on your payton analysis... this holds about as much water as a thimble. payton was RANKED to go in the first round when we drafted him. he was CONSIDERED a top talent and it was NOT a case of us drafting someone nobody but us heard of. the same goes for other picks in various rounds throughout draft history, they were slotted as having enough talent to warrant that position in the draft no matter what school they came from. “overloading people with useless info”? do you mean information/facts i used to dispute or challenge nfoligno’s DIRECT comments to ME? or do you mean me wasting my time looking up and posting information that disputes what i stated because you are too lazy to do it yourself? OR, maybe you should READ the ENTIRE thread before making “useless” comments yourself. well, just to help you out, i did look it up for you. if you have any “useless information” or even facts to dispute the following please feel free to post them...... dick jauron: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2003/dec/30/b...agement_defies/ Rick Morrissey - Chicago Tribune “Given that the Bears will have to pay Jauron $2.4 million for the final year of his contract, Fassel would be a decent compromise between the coaches who will want megabucks, such as LSU's Nick Saban, and the list of inexpensive NFL coordinators the Bears historically hire.” although i’m sure this is more “useless info” and facts, you might want to compare the tail end of jauron’s EXTENSION salary value above, when it expired, to what coaches were *making in the nfl when smith was hired. if the tribune is correct jauron was being paid in the bottom 1/3 of head coaches in the nfl. ============ http://www.1urbanavenue.com/stories/2007/0...0301bears.shtml lovie smith: “The lowest-paid coach in the NFL last season at $1.35 million when he led the Bears to the Super Bowl, Smith's deal will average about $4.7 million per season over five years.” http://chicagobearsfanforum.com/pipermail/...rch/000483.html * “In the meantime, the NFL coach of the year will get only a pat on the > back and the knowledge that six of his colleagues make more than $4 > million a year, led by Seattle's Mike Holmgren at $7.5 million. Ten > make more than $3 million a year; 12 make more than $2 million and > three make more than $1.8 million while Smith brings up the rear, > according to multiple NFL reports and sources.” ======================= http://www.newsday.com/topic/sns-chicagobears,0,963422.story angie’s contract: “The job is expected to pay in the $600,000-$750,000 a year range, the low end for a general manager but a significant increase in what any of the finalists are now earning. One of the candidates eliminated earlier in the six-week interview process said he would ask for at least a six-year contract because 2001 "is already shot."” hmmmm.... does that say it all? even angie got low-balled well excuse the hell out of me for only posting a recollection of 10 yrs vs. 18 yrs which, by the way, supports MY argument more anyway. the point that >>i>POSIBILITY thanks for the links. they totally dispute everything you just stated. so sorry but on that scale, $30 million dollars is peanuts. to state the taxpayers aren’t paying the lions share of the burden is a ridiculous comment. according to the APSE article, you yourself linked, the bear franchise ponied up $30 million dollars for the stadium renovation out of their OWN pockets of the $632 million dollar renovation of soldier field. $400+ million dollars paid by taxpayers, $150 million dollars paid by the nfl. how does that $150 mil from the nfl get paid back you ask? read the article you linked yourself. “Most of it is not repaid by the borrowing team, but from the visiting team's cut of club-seat money.” yea, i guess i am going into that “rubbish” once more for your sake. again, i also GET IT, there are times that a team actually pays out, >>TEMPORARILY it is also true that every year previous amounts of this front “bonus” money are paid back and put into the pocket of the owners or used to pay off the loans they took to get it. so what that means is that at the very MOST you, as a franchise, are paying interest ONLY on the money if you had to borrow it. below is a model of how this could possibly work for the owners... first and foremost i am not a statistician, a CPA, or even a math wiz for that matter, and you can take the following “useless info” and put it into perspective if you find it incorrect: most banks in the world would loan you money with a secured loan and usually, if i’m not mistaken, at around a 1% return. as an example i used $10 mil as an easy figure to regulate at the 1% over prime for a pro rated signing bonus over a 5 year period. at 1% loan interest the costs would be: 1st year interest $100,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 2nd year interest $80,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 3rd year interest $60,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 4th year interest $40,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 5th year interest $20,000 with final 20% payback of borrowed money total actual cost of borrowing the $10 mil bonus money over this five year period - $280,000 with interest at 1% let’s say the previous example is crap (which it well may be) and go with a straight loan of $10 mil at 4% interest as an example:. 1st year interest $400,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 2nd year interest $320,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 3rd year interest $240,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 4th year interest $160,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 5th year interest $80,000 with final payback of borrowed money total actual cost of borrowing $10 mil bonus money over a five year period - $1,200,000 at straight 4% you can look at these yearly amounts of interest money as being paid back from the slop that is left over YEARLY from that same years cap allowances doled out by the league that aren’t spent and used as a reserve for emergencies in case of injury etc.. usually between $.5 to $3+ million dollars, depending upon the franchise, at the end of a season and still show a profit from this. so the theory it takes a well healed generous owner to pay these bonus’s out of his own pocket is nonsense. the nfl pays for 99.9+% of all player salaries at the start and nobody spends more than the cap allowed in the long run. as far as your statement “with the new CBA a couple of years ago, the 60% of total revenues that the players get is more than just the TV contract money now” it is completely meaningless if the divided salaries paid to the franchises comes from tv money or other league revenue that determines the salary cap. that is exactly one of my POINTS!! why do you keep drafting the same type/position players, not only on defense but actually on offense – RB and WR, on the first day year after year and ignore real needs? don’t you think the offensive line has needed not just starters at every position on the line but good replacement depth since angie came to chicago? as far as beekman... i give you that. he is so invisible on this squad that i missed him in this particular instance as a 4th round pick. although, as i stated in the past, angie drafted 4 offensive linemen in six years in rounds 1-5 including THIS year. that is a sickening fact. hahahaha now you are accusing me of “conveniently” leaving out information. so which is it? am i conveniently leaving out information or am i “overloading people with useless info”? just for curiosities sake did you catch the reference in the first paragraph – “limited budget, and limited time, to locate two assistants” but then i guess limiting personnel budgets wouldn’t be considered >>possibly in FACT my responses were intended to question nfoligno’s statement: “But since Hatley and Phillips began to take over, a pretty dramatic change began, to the point where I just do not see how you can even try and say we still today are a cheap organization. Whether you are talking about money paid to players, coaches and staff, having a GM, or outside costs such as training facility, scouts, etc., I just think the argument today fails.” this INCLUDED commenting upon his training facility costs and scout program in which there is absolutely no indication of spending generosity in the time period he stated according to my “useless info”. just for the record. i never STATED as fact that this franchise WAS cheap. my response (including the “useless info” facts) questioned whether being cheap was a >>possibility finally... which facts did i leave out? i am a bit confused also. you haven’t included a single fact in your whole response except the one dealing with the stadium costs in which you got hung with your own rope. but hey, if you want to check it out, everything i posted on there as a fact to my knowledge, as close as i could find, and was done over a period of HOURS using a google search. i did most of the hard work just finding the names. so do a name search and check the information against nfl personnel. if that’s too difficult for you go to the teams home page and look for not only coaches but STAFF. some list it there. some are/almost impossible to find including the bears. hmmmm i wonder why that is?