Lucky Luciano

BEWARE... LONG POST OF INFO here is some information i posted about trading down on the shrine board in 2004. i'm sure there may be some differences to add over the last 4 years, or maybe not. anyway here is is: ==================================================== wanna trade down????? READ THIS!!" do we REALLLLLY want to trade down? after looking at the statistics below i know i sure don't and in fact would seriously consider trading up EVERY year into the top 10 if you wan't the odds on your side with selecting a quality player. its very curious also that the organizations missing in the top ten picks are consistantly missing like the bengles, the lions and a couple of other teams during this period. what this says to me is the cheap organizations not wanting to spend money on scouts, or people who REALLY know what is going on in the football world tend to waste these high picks in an alarming number. below are some interesting facts: 1) over a 20 year period if you selected a player in the top 5 slots you had a 49% chance to get a quality player who had at LEAST 2 awards (pro bowl or all-pro). if you picked a player in slots 6-10 you had a 43% chance. 2) over a 20 year period of time if you drafted a player in the 1-10 slots you had more than TWICE the chance to obtain an impact player than a team picking in slots 11-20. 92 players picked in the first round slots 1-10 vs. 45 players picked in the first round slots 11-20 that had at LEAST 2 awards (pro-bowl or all-pro). 3) 70% of the time players selected in slots 1-10 will be BETTER players than players selected in slots 11-20. 20% of the time there were even amounts in both slots. in only 10% of the time were there greater amounts of pro bowl/all-pro players selected. in other words... 14 times out of 20 times there were MORE quality players selected 1-10 than in slots 11-20. **only TWO times in 20 years were there more pro bowl/all-pro players picked in slots 11-20. *FOUR times they were even.. the data below reads as follows: YEAR - NUMBER OF PLAYERS FROM PICKS 1-10 - NUMBER OF PLAYERS FROM PICKS 11-20 1979 - 6 - 1 1980 - 5 - 3 1981 - 7 - 2 1982 - 5 - 2 1983 - 8 - 2 1984 - 3 - 3 * 1985 - 7 - 2 1986 - 4 - 1 1987 - 5 - 1 1988 - 6 - 7 ** 1989 - 4 - 1 1990 - 4 - 3 1991 - 3 - 0 1992 - 3 - 3 * 1993 - 4 - 0 1994 - 4 - 4 * 1995 - 2 - 4 ** 1996 - 5 - 2 1997 - 5 - 2 1998 - 2 - 2 * i used data for 20 years from 1979 to 1998 inclusive. i did not go further than 98 as the time frame would be not be long enough to determine any significant figures. i used data up until 2003. i also am using figures from picks 1-20 in the first round only to determine the value of drafting in the top 10 as compared to picking in the next 10 slots. i went through an incredible amount of data to get these stats. all data was figured from players who had at LEAST two forms of award. EXAMPLE.. a player that had 1 pro bowl and 1 all-pro made the list, a player that was selected for 2 pro-bowls made the list, a player who was selected as all-pro (or all-nfl) twice made the list, and multiples of the above. im no math expert by any means and if anyone see's any errors post them and/or i will post the players along with data. any who want can do the math on their own as it is possible i missed someone or added one by mistake. if you find any that dont jive let me know. =========== listed below are the players that i used for the stats above from 1979 - 1998. i used the data i could find up until the 2003 pro bowl (i couldnt find any all-pro or all-nfl stats for 2003). some of the players i listed as lots, ? or + rather than spending the time looking up every stat for them so take that into consideration. how long did this take to compile this data you ask? days! ap = ALL-PRO pb = PRO BOWL >> 1979 - 6 - 1 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Tom Cousineau Bills LB Ohio State - 2 ap >> 2 Mike Bell Chiefs DE Colorado State - 3 Jack Thompson Bengals QB Washington State - >> 4 Dan Hampton Bears DT Arkansas - 4 pb - +ap >> 5 Jerry Butler Bills WR Clemson - 1 pb - 1 ap 6 Barry Krauss Colts LB Alabama - >> 7 Phil Simms Giants QB Morehead State - 2 pb - 1 ap >> 8 Ottis Anderson Cardinals RB Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 2 ap 9 Al Harris Bears DE Arizona State - >> 10 Keith Dorney Lions T Penn State - 1 pb - 2 ap -------------------------------------------------- 11 Russell Erxleben Saints K Texas - 12 Charles Alexander Bengals RB LSU - >> 13 Kellen Winslow Chargers TE Missouri - 5 pb - +ap 14 Marty Lyons Jets DE Alabama - 15 Eddie Lee Ivery Packers RB Georgia Tech - 16 Ted Brown Vikings RB North Carolina State - 17 Don Smith Falcons DE Miami (FL) - 1 ap 18 Manu Tuiasosopo Seahawks DT UCLA - 19 George Andrews Rams LB Nebraska - 20 Willis Adams Browns WR Houston - ======================================= 1980 - 5 - 3 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Billy Sims Lions RB Oklahoma - 2 pb - 2 ap 2 Lam Jones Jets WR Texas >> 3 Anthony Munoz Bengals T USC - 10 pb - 11 ap 4 Bruce Clark Packers DT Penn State - 1 pb 5 Curtis Dickey Colts RB Texas A&M - 6 Curtis Greer Cardinals DE Michigan - 1 ap >> 7 Junior Miller Falcons TE Nebraska - 2 pb - >> 8 Mark Haynes Giants DB Colorado - 3pb - 5 ap 9 Doug Martin Vikings DT Washington >> 10 Jacob Green Seahawks DE Texas A&M- 2ap - 4 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Brad Budde Chiefs G USC - 12 Stan Brock Saints T Colorado - 13 Earl Cooper 49ers RB Rice - 14 Roland James Patriots DB Tennessee - 1 ap 15 Marc Wilson Raiders QB Brigham Young - >> 16 Jim Ritcher Bills C North Carolina State - 2 pb - 2 ap 17 Johnnie Johnson Rams DB Texas - 1 ap >> 18 Art Monk Redskins WR Syracuse - 3 pb - 3 ap >> 19 Otis Wilson Bears LB Louisville - 1 pb - 2 ap 20 Jim Stuckey 49ers DT Clemson - ===================================================== 1981 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 George Rogers Saints RB South Carolina - 2 pb - 2 ap >> 2 Lawrence Taylor Giants LB North Carolina - lots >> 3 Freeman McNeil Jets RB UCLA - 3 pb - 3 ap >> 4 Kenny Easley Seahawks DB UCLA - 5 pb - 5 ap >> 5 E.J. Junior Cardinals LB Alabama - 2 pb - 2 ap 6 Rich Campbell Packers QB California >> 7 Hugh Green Buccaneers LB Pittsburgh - 2 pb - 2 ap >> 8 Ronnie Lott 49ers DB USC - lots - hof 9 Mel Owens Rams LB Michigan 10 David Verser Bengals WR Kansas - ----------------------------------------------------- 11 Keith Van Horne Bears T USC - 12 Randy McMillan Colts RB Pittsburgh 13 David Overstreet Dolphins RB Oklahoma - 14 Willie Scott Chiefs TE South Carolina - >> 15 Dennis Smith Broncos DB USC - 6 pb - lots 16 Mark Nichols Lions WR San Jose State - 17 Keith Gary Steelers DE Oklahoma - 18 Donnell Thompson Colts DT North Carolina - >> 19 Brian Holloway Patriots T Stanford - 3 pb - 3 ap 20 Mark May Redskins T Pittsburgh - 1 ap ============================================ 1982 - 5 - 2 - top 5 = 2 1 Kenneth Sims Patriots DT Texas - 2 Johnie Cooks Colts LB Mississippi State - >> 3 Chip Banks Browns LB USC - 4 pb - 4 ap 4 Art Schlichter Colts QB Ohio State - >> 5 Jim McMahon Bears QB Brigham Young - 1 pb - 1 ap 6 Jeff Bryant Seahawks DE Clemson 1 ap 7 Darrin Nelson Vikings RB Stanford - >> 8 Mike Munchak Oilers G Penn State - 9 pb - lots >> 9 Gerald Riggs Falcons RB Arizona State - 3 pb - 2 ap >> 10 Marcus Allen Raiders RB USC - lots -------------------------------------------- 11 Anthony Hancock Chiefs WR Tennessee - 12 Walter Abercrombie Steelers RB Baylor - 13 Lindsay Scott Saints WR Georgia - 14 Barry Redden Rams RB Richmond - 15 Jimmy Williams Lions LB Nebraska - >> 16 Luis Sharpe Cardinals T UCLA - 3 pb - 4 ap 17 Sean Farrell Buccaneers G Penn State - 1 ap 18 Butch Woolfork Giants RB Michigan - 19 Perry Tuttle Bills WR Clemson - >> 20 Mike Quick Eagles WR North Carolina State - 5 pb - 4 ap ==================================== 1983 - 8 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 John Elway Colts QB Stanford - Lots >> 2 Eric Dickerson Rams RB SMU - lots >> 3 Curt Warner Seahawks RB Penn State - 3 pb - 4 ap >> 4 Chris Hinton Broncos T Northwestern - lots >> 5 Billy Ray Smith Chargers LB Arkansas - 3 ap >> 6 Jimbo Covert Bears T Pittsburgh - lots 7 Todd Blackledge Chiefs QB Penn State - 8 Michael Haddix Eagles RB Mississippi State - >> 9 Bruce Matthews Oilers G USC - lots >> 10 Terry Kinard Giants DB Clemson - 1 pb - 1 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Tim Lewis Packers DB Pittsburgh - 1 ap 12 Tony Hunter Bills TE Notre Dame - 13 James Jones Lions RB Florida - >> 14 Jim Kelly Bills QB Miami (FL) lots 15 Tony Eason Patriots QB Illinois 16 Mike Pitts Falcons DE Alabama - 17 Leonard Smith Cardinals DB McNeese State 1 ap 18 Willie Gualt Bears WR Tennessee - >> 19 Joey Browner Vikings DB USC - 6 pb - 5 ap 20 Gary Anderson Chargers RB Arkansas - 1 pb ================================ 1984 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Irving Fryar Patriots WR Nebraska - 5 pb - 1 ap 2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers T Nebraska - >> 3 Carl Banks Giants LB Michigan State - 1 pb - 1 ap 4 Kenny Jackson Eagles WR Penn State - >> 5 Bill Maas Chiefs DT Pittsburgh - 2 ap 6 Mossy Cade Chargers DB Texas 7 Ricky Hunley Bengals LB Arizona - 8 Leonard Coleman Colts DB Vanderbilt - 9 Rick Bryan Falcons DT Oklahoma - 1 ap 10 Russell Carter Jets DB SMU - -------------------------------------- >> 11 Wilber Marshall Bears LB Florida - 3 pb - 2 ap 12 Alphonso Carreker Packers DE Florida State - >> 13 Keith Millard Vikings DE Washington State - 2 pb - 4 ap 14 Jackie Shipp Dolphins LB Oklahoma 15 Ron Faurot Jets DE Arkansas 16 Pete Koch Bengals DE Maryland 17 Clyde Duncan Cardinals WR Tennessee - 18 Don Rogers Browns DB UCLA - >> 19 Ron Solt Colts G Maryland - 1 pb - 1 ap 20 David Lewis Lions TE California - ========================================== 1985 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 Bruce Smith Bills DE Virginia Tech >> 2 Bill Fralic Falcons T Pittsburgh - 4 pb - 3 ap >> 3 Ray Childress Oilers DE Texas A&M - 5 pb - 6 ap >> 4 Chris Doleman Vikings DE Pittsburgh - 8 pb - 4 ap >> 5 Duane Bickett Colts LB USC - 1 pb - 2 ap >> 6 Lomas Brown Lions T Florida - 7 pb - 6 ap 7 Ken Ruettgers Packers T USC - 8 Ron Holmes Buccaneers DE Washington 9 Kevin Allen Eagles T Indiana - >> 10 Al Toon Jets WR Wisconsin - 3 pb - 3 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Richard Johnson Oilers DB Wisconsin >> 12 Jim Lachey Chargers T Ohio State - 3 pb - 5 ap 13 Eddie Brown Bengals WR Miami (FL) - 1 ap 14 Derrick Burroughs Bills DB Memphis State - 15 Ethan Horton Chiefs RB North Carolina - >> 16 Jerry Rice 49ers WR Mississippi Valley State 17 Kevin Brooks Cowboys DE Michigan 18 Freddie Joe Nunn Cardinals DE Mississippi 19 George Adams Giants RB Kentucky 20 Darryl Sims Steelers DE Wisconsin - ======================================= 1986 - 4 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Bo Jackson Buccaneers RB Auburn - 1 pb - 2 ap 2 Tony Casillas Falcons DT Oklahoma - 1 ap >> 3 Jim Everett Oilers QB Purdue - 1 pb - 2 ap 4 Jon Hand Colts DE Alabama 5 Anthony Bell Cardinals LB Michigan State - 6 Jim Dombrowski Saints T Virginia - 7 Brian Jozwiak Chiefs T West Virginia >> 8 Leslie O'Neal Chargers DE Oklahoma State - 6 pb - ?ap 9 John Rienstra Steelers G Temple - >> 10 Keith Byars Eagles RB Ohio State - 1 pb - 1 ap ------------------------------------ 11 Joe Kelly Bengals LB Washington 12 Chuck Long Lions QB Iowa 13 James Fitzpatrick Chargers T USC - 14 Gerald Robinson Vikings DE Auburn 15 John L. Williams Seahawks RB Florida 16 Ronnie Harmon Bills RB Iowa - 1 pb - 17 Tim Green Falcons LB Syracuse 18 Mike Sherrard Cowboys WR UCLA 19 Eric Dorsey Giants DE Notre Dame >> 20 Will Wolford Bills T Vanderbilt - 3 pb - 2 ap ================================= 1987 - 5 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Vinny Testaverde Buccaneers QB Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 1 ap >> 2 Cornelius Bennett Colts LB Alabama - 5 pb - ?ap 3 Alonzo Highsmith Oilers RB Miami (FL) 4 Brent Fullwood Packers RB Auburn - 1 pb - 5 Mike Junkin Browns LB Duke 6 Kelly Stouffer Cardinals QB Colorado State 7 Reggie Rogers Lions DE Washington >> 8 Shane Conlan Bills LB Penn State - 3 pb - 3 ap >> 9 Jerome Brown Eagles DT Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 3 ap >> 10 Rod Woodson Steelers DB Purdue lots ------------------------------------------------------ 11 Shawn Knight Saints DT Brigham Young 12 Danny Noonan Cowboys DT Nebraska 13 Chris Miller Falcons QB Oregon - 1 pb - 14 D.J. Dozier Vikings RB Penn State 15 John Clay Raiders T Missouri - 16 John Bosa Dolphins DE Boston College 17 Jason Buck Bengals DE Brigham Young 18 Tony Woods Seahawks LB Pittsburgh 19 Paul Palmer Chiefs RB Temple >> 20 Haywood Jeffires Oilers WR North Carolina State - 3 pb - 2 ap ========================================= 1988 - 6 - 7 - top 5 = 3 1 Aundray Bruce Falcons LB Auburn - >> 2 Neil Smith Chiefs DE Nebraska - 6 pb - 6 ap >> 3 Bennie Blades Lions DB Miami (FL) - 1 pb - 3 ap >> 4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers T Wisconsin - 3 ap 5 Rickey Dixon Bengals DB Oklahoma >> 6 Tim Brown Raiders WR Notre Dame - 7 + - ap + >> 7 Sterling Sharpe Packers WR South Carolina - 5 pb - 5 ap 8 Dave Cadigan Jets T USC - >> 9 Terry McDaniel Raiders DB Tennessee - 5 pb - 2 ap 10 Eric Moore Giants T Indiana ------------------------------------- >> 11 Michael Irvin Cowboys WR Miami (FL) - + pb - + ap >> 12 Ken Harvey Cardinals LB California - + pb - + ap >> 13 Keith Jackson Eagles TE Oklahoma - 5 pb - 4 ap >> 14 Gaston Green Rams RB UCLA - 1 pb - 1 ap >> 15 Anthony Miller Chargers WR Tennessee - 5 pb - 3 ap 16 Eric Kumerow Dolphins DE Ohio State >> 17 John Stephens Patriots RB NW Louisiana - 1 pb - 1 ap 18 Aaron Jones Steelers DE Eastern Kentucky - >> 19 Randall McDaniel Vikings G Arizona State - 10 pb - + ap 20 Aaron Cox Rams WR Arizona State - ================================================= 1989 - 4 -1 - top 5 = 4 >> 1 Troy Aikman Cowboys QB UCLA - + pb - + ap 2 Tony Mandarich Packers T Michigan State >> 3 Barry Sanders Lions RB Oklahoma State - +pb - + ap >> 4 Derrick Thomas Chiefs LB Alabama - 9 pb - + ap >> 5 Deion Snaders Falcons DB Florida State + pb - + ap 6 Broderick Thomas Buccaneers LB Nebraska 7 Tim Worley Steelers RB Georgia 8 Burt Grossman Chargers DE Pittsburgh - 9 Sammie Smith Dolphins RB Florida State - 10 Eric Hill Cardinals LB LSU - --------------------------------------------- 11 Donnell Woolford Bears DB Clemson - 1 pb - 12 Trace Armstrong Bears DE Florida 1 pb 13 Eric Metcalf Browns RB Texas - 14 Jeff Lageman Jets LB Virginia - 1 ap 15 Andy Heck Seahawks T Notre Dame - 1 ap 16 Hart Lee Dykes Patriots WR Oklahoma State - 17 Joe Wolf Cardinals G Boston College - 18 Brian Williams Giants C Minnesota - 19 Wayne Martin Saints DE Arkansas - 1 pb - >> 20 Steve Atwater Broncos DB Arkansas - 8 pb - + ap ========================================= 1990 - 4 - 3 - top 5 = 2 1 Jeff George Colts QB Illinois 2 Blair Thomas Jets RB Penn State - >> 3 Cortez Kennedy Seahawks DT Miami (FL) - 7 pb - 6 ap 4 Keith McCants Buccaneers LB Alabama - >> 5 Junior Seau Chargers LB USC - + pb - + ap >> 6 Mark Carrier Bears DB USC - 3 pb - 3 ap 7 Andre Ware Lions QB Houston 8 Chris Singleton Patriots LB Arizona - >> 9 Richmond Webb Dolphins T Texas A&M - 7 pb - 3 ap 10 Ray Agnew Patriots DE North Carolina State - -------------------------------------------- 11 Anthony Smith Raiders DE Arizona - 12 James Francis Bengals LB Baylor - 13 Percy Snow Chiefs LB Michigan State - >> 14 Renaldo Turnbull Saints DE West Virginia - 1 pb - 1 ap >> 15 Lamar Lathon Oilers LB Houston - 1 pb - 1 ap 16 James Williams Bills DB Fresno State - >> 17 Emmitt Smith Cowboys RB Florida lots 18 Tony Bennett Packers LB Mississippi - 19 Darrell Thompson Packers RB Minnesota - 20 Steve Broussard Falcons RB Washington State - ============================================== 1991 - 3 - 0 - top 5 = 1 1 Russell Maryland Cowboys DT Miami (FL) - 1 pb - >> 2 Eric Turner Browns DB UCLA - 2 pb - 1 ap 3 Bruce Pickens Falcons DB Nebraska - 4 Mike Croel Broncos LB Nebraska - 5 Todd Lyght Rams DB Notre Dame - 1 pb >> 6 Eric Swann Cardinals DE None - 2 pb - 2 ap 7 Charles McRae Buccaneers T Tennessee - 8 Antone Davis Eagles T Tennessee - 9 Stanley Richard Chargers DB Texas - >> 10 Herman Moore Lions WR Virginia - 4 pb - 3 ap --------------------------------------- 11 Pat Harlow Patriots T USC - 12 Alvin Harper Cowboys WR Tennessee - 13 Mike Pritchard Falcons WR Colorado - 14 Leonard Russell Patriots RB Arizona State - 15 Huey Richardson Steelers LB Florida - 16 Dan McGwire Seahawks QB San Diego State - 17 Bobby Wilson Redskins DT Michigan State - 18 Alfred Williams Bengals LB Colorado - 19 Vinnie Clark Packers DB Ohio State - 20 Kelvin Pritchett Cowboys DT Mississippi - ================================================ 1992 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 1 1 Steve Emtman Colts DT Washington - 2 Quentin Coryatt Colts LB Texas A&M - >> 3 Sean Gilbert Rams DT Pittsburgh - 1 pb - 1 ap 4 Desmond Howard Redskins WR Michigan - 5 Terrell Buckley Packers DB Florida State - 1 ap 6 David Klingler Bengals QB Houston - >> 7 Troy Vincent Dolphins DB Wisconsin - 3 pb - ?ap >> 8 Bob Whitfield Falcons T Stanford - 1 pb - 1 ap 9 Tommy Vardell Browns RB Stanford - 10 Ray Roberts Seahawks T Virginia ------------------------------------------ 11 Leon Searcy Steelers T Miami (FL) - 1 pb >> 12 Marco Coleman Dolphins DE Georgia Tech - 2 pb 13 Eugene Chung Patriots T Virginia Tech - 14 Derek Brown Giants TE Notre Dame - 15 Johnny Mitchell Jets TE Nebraska - >> 16 Chester McGlockton Raiders DT Clemson - 4 pb - + ap 17 Kevin Smith Cowboys DB Texas A&M - 1 ap 18 Dana Hall 49ers DB Washington - 19 Troy Smith Falcons RB Southern Mississippi - >> 20 Dale Carter Chiefs DB Tennessee - 4 pb - 4 ap ========================================== 1993 - 4 - 0 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Drew Bledsoe Patriots QB Washington State - lots 2 Rick Mirer Seahawks QB Notre Dame >> 3 Garrison Hearst Cardinals RB Georgia 2 pb - ? ap 4 Marvin Jones Jets LB Florida State - 5 John Copeland Bengals DE Alabama - 6 Eric Curry Buccaneers DE Alabama - 7 Curtis Conway Bears WR USC - >> 8 William Roaf Saints T Louisiana Tech - 5? pb - 4 ? ap 9 Lincoln Kennedy Falcons T Washington - >> 10 Jerome Bettis Rams RB Notre Dame - 4 pb - ? ap ------------------------------------- 11 Dan Williams Broncos DE Toledo 12 Patrick Bates Raiders DB Texas A&M - 13 Brad Hopkins Oilers T Illinois - 14 Steve Everitt Browns C Michigan - 15 Wayne Simmons Packers LB Clemson - 16 Sean Dawkins Colts WR California - 17 Tom Carter Redskins DB Notre Dame - 18 Ernest Dye Cardinals T South Carolina - 19 Lester Holmes Eagles G Jackson State - 20 Irv Smith Saints TE Notre Dame - ==================================== 1994 - 4 - 4 - top 5 = 1 1 Dan Wilkinson Bengals DT Ohio State - >> 2 Marshall Faulk Colts RB San Diego State lots- 3 Heath Shuler Redskins QB Tennessee - 4 Willie McGinest Patriots DE USC - 1 pb - 5 Trev Alberts Colts LB Nebraska - 6 Trent Dilfer Buccaneers QB Fresno State - 1 pb - >> 7 Bryant Young 49ers DT Notre Dame - 1 pb - 2? ap >> 8 Sam Adams Seahawks DT Texas A&M - 3 pb - 1 ap 9 Antonio Langham Browns DB Alabama - >> 10 Jamir Miller Cardinals LB UCLA - 3 pb - 1 ap --------------------------------- 11 John Thierry Bears DE Alcorn State >> 12 Aaron Glenn Jets DB Texas A&M - 2 pb - 2? ap >> 13 Joe Johnson Saints DE Louisville 2 pb - 14 Bernard Williams Eagles T Georgia - 15 Wayne Gandy Rams T Auburn - 16 Aaron Taylor Packers T Notre Dame - 17 Charles Johnson Steelers WR Colorado - 18 DeWayne Washington Vikings DB North Carolina State - >> 19 Todd Steussie Vikings T California - 2 pb - ?ap >> 20 Tim Bowens Dolphins DT Mississippi 2 pb ========================================= 1995 - 2 - 4 - top 5 = 1 1 Ki-Jana Carter Bengals RB Penn State >> 2 Tony Boselli Jaguars T USC - lots 3 Steve McNair Oilers QB Alcorn State - 1 pb 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins WR Colorado - 5 Kerry Collins Panthers QB Penn State - 1 pb - >> 6 Kevin Carter Rams DE Florida - 2 pb - ?ap 7 Mike Mamula Eagles DE Boston College - 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks WR Ohio State 9 Kyle Brady Jets TE Penn State 10 J.J. Stokes 49ers WR UCLA -------------------------------------------- 11 Derrick Alexander Vikings DE Florida State >> 12 Warren Sapp Buccaneers DT Miami (FL) - + pb - +ap 13 Mark Fields Saints LB Washington State >> 14 Reuben Brown Bills G Pittsburgh - 3 pb - 1 + ap 15 Ellis Johnson Colts DT Florida >> 16 Hugh Douglas Jets DE Central State (OH) - + pb - + ap 17 Tyrone Wheatley Giants RB Michigan 18 Napoleon Kaufman Raiders RB Washington - 19 James Stewart Jaguars RB Tennessee >> 20 Luther Elliss Lions DE Utah - 2 pb ========================================== 1996 - 5 - 2 - top 5 = 4 >> 1 Keyshawn Johnson Jets WR USC - 1 + pb - 1+ ap >> 2 Kevin Hardy Jaguars LB Illinois - 1+ pb - 1+ ap >> 3 Simeon Rice Cardinals DE Illinois - 1+ pb 1+ ap >> 4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens T UCLA - 2+ pb - 1+ ap 5 Cedric Jones Giants DE Oklahoma - 6 Lawrence Phillips Rams RB Nebraska - >> 7 Terry Glenn Patriots WR Ohio State - 1+ pb - 1+ ab 8 Tim Biakabutuka Panthers RB Michigan - 9 Rickey Dudley Raiders TE Ohio State - 10 Willie Anderson Bengals T Auburn - ----------------------------------------- 11 Alex Molden Saints DB Oregon - 12 Regan Upshaw Buccaneers DE California - 13 Walt Harris Bears DB Mississippi State - >> 14 Eddie George Oilers RB Ohio State - 2+ pb - 1+ ap 15 John Mobley Broncos LB Kutztown (PA) - 1 ap 16 Duane Clemons Vikings DE California - 17 Reggie Brown Lions LB Texas A&M - 18 Eddie Kennison Rams WR LSU - >> 19 Marvin Harrison Colts WR Syracuse - +pb - +ap 20 Daryl Gardener Dolphins DT Baylor - ============================================== 1997 - 5 - 2 - top 5 = 4 >> 1 Orlando Pace Rams T Ohio State - 1+ pb - 1+ ap >> 2 Darrell Russell Raiders DT USC - 1+ pb - 1+ ap >> 3 Shawn Springs Seahawks DB Ohio State - 1+ pb - 1+ ap >> 4 Peter Boulware Ravens DE Florida State - 2 pb 5 Bryant Westbrook Lions DB Texas - >> 6 Walter Jones Seahawks T Florida State - 1+ pb - 1+ ap 7 Ike Hilliard Giants WR Florida - 8 James Farrior Jets LB Virginia - 9 Tom Knight Cardinals DB Iowa - 10 Chris Naeole Saints G Colorado - ------------------------------------------ 11 Michael Booker Falcons DB Nebraska - >> 12 Warrick Dunn Buccaneers RB Florida State - 2 pb >> 13 Tony Gonzalez Chiefs TE California - 1+ pb 1+ ap 14 Reinard Wilson Bengals DE Florida State - 15 Yatil Green Dolphins WR Miami (FL) - 16 Reidel Anthony Buccaneers WR Florida - 17 Kenard Lang Redskins DE Miami (FL) - 18 Kenny Holmes Oilers DE Miami (FL) - 19 Tarik Glenn Colts T California - 20 Dwayne Rudd Vikings LB Alabama - 1 ap ==================================== 1998 - 2 - 2 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Peyton Manning Colts QB Tennessee - + pb - +ap 2 Ryan Leaf Chargers QB Washington State 3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals DE Florida State - >> 4 Charles Woodson Raiders DB Michigan - + pb - + ap 5 Curtis Enis Bears RB Penn State 6 Grant Wistrom Rams DE Nebraska - 7 Kyle Turley Saints T San Diego State - 1 ap 8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina - 9 Fred Taylor Jaguars RB Florida - 10 Duane Starks Ravens DB Miami (FL) - -------------------------------------- >> 11 Tra Thomas Eagles T Florida State - 2 pb - 1 ap >> 12 Keith Brooking Falcons LB Georgia Tech - 2 pb 13 Takeo Spikes Bengals LB Auburn 14 Jason Peter Panthers DT Nebraska - 15 Anthony Simmons Seahawks LB Clemson - 16 Kevin Dyson Oilers WR Utah - 17 Brian Simmons Bengals LB North Carolina - 18 Robert Edwards Patriots RB Georgia - 19 Vonnie Holliday Packers DT North Carolina - 20 Terry Fair Lions DB Tennessee - ====================================== +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1999 1 Tim Couch Browns QB Kentucky 2 Donovan McNabb Eagles QB Syracuse 3 Akili Smith Bengals QB Oregon 4 Edgerrin James Colts RB Miami (FL) ++++++++ 1999 ap 5 Ricky Williams Saints RB Texas 6 Torry Holt Rams WR North Carolina State 7 Champ Bailey Redskins DB Georgia 8 David Boston Cardinals WR Ohio State 9 Chris Claiborne Lions LB USC 10 Chris McAlister Ravens DB Arizona ------------------------------------------ 11 Daunte Culpepper Vikings QB Central Florida 12 Cade McNown Bears QB UCLA 13 Troy Edwards Steelers WR Louisiana Tech 14 John Tait Chiefs T Brigham Young 15 Anthony McFarland Buccaneers DT LSU 16 Jevon Kearse Oilers LB Florida +++++++ ap 1999 17 Damien Woody Patriots C Boston College 18 Matt Stinchcomb Raiders T Georgia 19 Luke Petitgout Giants T Notre Dame 20 Ebenezer Ekuban Cowboys DE North Carolina ========================================= 2000 1 Courtney Brown Browns DE Penn State 2 LaVar Arrington Redskins LB Penn State 3 Chris Samuels Redskins T Alabama 4 Peter Warrick Bengals WR Florida State 5 Jamal Lewis Ravens RB Tennessee 6 Corey Simon Eagles DT Florida State 7 Thomas Jones Cardinals RB Virginia 8 Plaxico Burress Steelers WR Michigan State 9 Brian Urlacher Bears LB New Mexico 10 Travis Taylor Ravens WR Florida --------------------------------------- 11 Ron Dayne Giants RB Wisconsin 12 Shaun Ellis Jets DE Tennessee 13 John Abraham Jets LB South Carolina 14 Bubba Franks Packers TE Miami (FL) 15 Deltha O'Neal Broncos DB California 16 Julian Peterson 49ers LB Michigan State 17 Sebastian Janikowski Raiders K Florida State 18 Chad Pennington Jets QB Marshall 19 Shaun Alexander Seahawks RB Alabama 20 Stockar McDougle Lions T Oklahoma ====================================== 2001 1 Michael Vick Falcons QB Virginia Tech 2 Leonard Davis Cardinals T Texas 3 Gerard Warren Browns DT Florida 4 Justin Smith Bengals DE Missouri 5 LaDainian Tomlinson Chargers RB Texas Christian 6 Richard Seymour Patriots DT Georgia 7 Andre Carter 49ers DE California 8 David Terrell Bears WR Michigan 9 Koren Robinson Seahawks WR North Carolina State 10 Jamal Reynolds Packers DE Florida State ---------------------------------------------- 11 Dan Morgan Panthers LB Miami (FL) 12 Damione Lewis Rams DT Miami (FL) 13 Marcus Stroud Jaguars DT Georgia 14 Kenyatta Walker Buccaneers T Florida 15 Rod Gardner Redskins WR Clemson 16 Santana Moss Jets WR Miami (FL) 17 Steve Hutchinson Seahawks G Michigan 18 Jeff Backus Lions T Michigan 19 Casey Hampton Steelers DT Texas 20 Adam Archuleta Rams DB Arizona State ========================================== 2002 1 David Carr Texans QB Fresno State 2 Julius Peppers Panthers DE North Carolina 3 Joey Harrington Lions QB Oregon 4 Mike Williams Bills T Texas 5 Quentin Jammer Chargers DB Texas 6 Ryan Sims Chiefs DT North Carolina 7 Bryant McKinnie Vikings T Miami (FL) 8 Roy Williams Cowboys DB Oklahoma 9 John Henderson Jaguars DT Tennessee 10 Levi Jones Bengals T Arizona State ------------------------------------- 11 Dwight Freeney Colts LB Syracuse 12 Wendell Bryant Cardinals DT Wisconsin 13 Donte Stallworth Saints WR Tennessee 14 Jeremy Shockey Giants TE Miami (FL) 15 Albert Haynesworth Titans DT Tennessee 16 William Green Browns RB Boston College 17 Phillip Buchanon Raiders DB Miami (FL) 18 T.J. Duckett Falcons RB Michigan State 19 Ashley Lelie Broncos WR Hawaii 20 Javon Walker Packers WR Florida State ==================== i dont think anyone (or at least myself) are trying to imply that if you pick in the top 5 or 10 that you are guaranteed a high impact player with that pick. the lists i posted clearly show that. but... i think what it does show is that you have a better chance at achieving the goal of every organization by picking in these slots than in lower ones. to aquire a franchise player it can't just be determined by money vs. reward risk when you draft. otherwise why even draft at all in the first round? you will end up like the redskins under the former bear dc george allen and even without the the salary cap at that time it just didn't work. drafting high... will you miss sometimes? absolutely! but the old saying if you DON'T try you will NEVER succeed. if teams that draft consistanly in the top 5 spots can afford it every year why can't the bear organization in the few times over decades afford it? i think the fact that this franchise has had ONE quality qb in 40 years speaks volumes of the risk reward consequences. these are some interesting draft stats. below are chicago bear hall of fame players and where they were drafted: HOF 1st round top 10 picks 1. Clyde Bulldog Turner 7th pick 1st round 2. Joe Stydahar 6th pick 1st round 3. Gayle Sayers 4th pick 1st round 4. Walther Payton 4th pick 1st round 5. Dan Hampton 4th pick 1st round 6. George McAfee 2nd pick 1st round (drafted by eagles and immediately traded to bears) 7. Sid Luckman 2nd pick 1st round 8. Mike Ditka 5th pick 1st round 9. George Connor 5th pick 1st round (drafted by ny giants) 10. Dick Butkus 3rd pick 1st round HOF 1st round picks 11 - + 1. Doug Atkins 11th pick 1st round HOF later rounds 1. Mike Singletary 38th pick 2nd round 2. Stan Jones 5th round 3. Bill George 2nd round 4. Danny Fortmann 9th round pick 5. George Blanda 12th round HOF not listed as draft picks. prior to 1936 1. Bronco Nagurski 2. George Musso 3. Roy Lyman 4. Bill Hewitt 5. Ed Healey 6. George Halas 7. John Driscol one last item... cheap does not always relate to player salaries and even more-so today. cheap does relate to franchises that skimp on coaches and/or salaries, a scouting program, player personel salaries etc. facilities.

i won't dispute what you saw and am not saying anything is written in stone from my previous post. what i would like to comment on is there are a number of factors involved for what you possibly see, game to game, which includes injuries and their replacements. this could be young or inexperienced players, poor quality players with severe limitations, or people playing out of position and our coaching staff going to as safe a defensive mode as possible due to these contingencies. what compounds this is the inexperience and/or ineptitude by our coaching staff which includes people like babich.

do you really think lovie smith is so stupid that if our corners could play bump and run, forget about man coverage but like the cover 2 actually dicatates in the first place, he just doesn't want to do it? just to be sure i am getting you... you say the cb's are not good enough to play up man coverage yet it appears your pet peeve is why our coaches don't scheme to play them up man in coverage OR on the LOS in zone coverage more often? just for the record, even when our D was top 5 our pass defense was POOR!! we overcompensated for poor corner play with good + pressure from the defensive line. we also at that time had a good safety in mike brown who also helped to smooth the edges of our corners playing so soft. in the mean time other offenses figured out how to beat us which we don't have the tools to counter. what matters is that there is not enough quality/talent in our entire defensive backfield to even trade one for a 3rd round pick!!! you don't think another team would give us a 3rd round pick for briggs? or urlacher? or tommy harris? would you give one for polamalu (sp)? one for the kid in oakland? champ bailey? dawkins? mcalister? no i am not missing that point. it doesn't have to do with scheme unless you think our cover 2 is something different under lovie smith than any other coach using the cover 2. it has to do with confidence in his players abilities which seems nonexistant. either that or he really is stupid. first, i wasn't at the game and it is truely vauge in my memory without revisiting it so i can only talk in generalities in this instance. onward: when blitzing 'can' a defense play a larger zone? sure. does that mean your corners are or aren't playing man? no. again... there are a multitude of zone type defenses some mixed with man. do you consider it a zone just because they are giving this big of a cushion? if that is the case we never play man coverage. watch where the corner is lined up. see where the safeties are lined up. is the corner trailing the wideout with a deep safety for over the top help? are there 2 safties playing deep? is he passing him accross the field to the safety, linebacker or the other corner? i have to add to this also, the cover 2 is DEPENDANT upon the corners not letting the receivers get off the line untouched, period. otherwise you will get exactly what we have seen in chicago playing zone OR man. explain to me your description of that game's corners and safeties playing man coverage and compare it to what you see in other games. what are the specific differences to you? the biggest PROBLEM is wracking up 3-5 hundred yards passing a game. how can you expect any defensive line, including the 85 bears, to stop a continuous 2-3 step drop and release? if your corners are covering the receivers tight can that happen as often as it does in chicago? nobody seems to realize that that extra second waiting for a receiver to clear can make the difference between a completion and a sack. i agree you need to generate a pass rush to be successful. but to do that you need to be able to hold the receivers from being open for at LEAST the minimum amount of time it takes your linemen to get there. we can't/don't do that. yea i do remember 2001 and what we needed then was a pass rushing defensive end to be successful. our corners weren't great but they did play a lot tighter/better coverage than anything we see today not to mention we had two pro-bowl caliber safeties. i just don't see how this is a waste of money improving your entire defense with one key player. FA's factor cash first and foremost. add to that do you think a db from oakland, for gods sake, wouldn't see an improvement in chicago? if not then we truely are a sad franchise at this point in history. you keep saying the same thing over and over. our staff wouldn't deploy our corners up because of scheme. how do you know that? you yourself say they are not good playing up!!! so why should they? so they can get beat every other down? would angelo be dumb enough to draft a cover 2 type of corner in round 1? i certainly hope not. any corner i drafted on the first day would be one i projected to be a cover/lockdown corner. finally... when have they ever had a true cover corner to put on the field??? do you truely believe that bringing woodson in 3 years ago would have made NO difference for this defense? are you serious??

well, i could be wrong but if i am everything i have seen and read is too. again, one of the reasons why it 'may' look like that, is our corners are giving such a soft cushion it appears to be zone coverage even when they play man coverage. they are playing 5 yds off the LOS and backpeddling up to 10 yards at the snap. maybe against certain teams we might play it more when down and yardage dictates but generally 60% or more of the time we are not in the cover 2. again i have to disagree with you. we do play a lot of man coverage. also, when a cover 2 defense blitzes it usually has to play man up because there just isn't enough personnel to cover the zones. this also rings true on non-passing downs and 2nd or 3rd short yardage situations.

i just don't believe that our corners are good enough to play man coverage with any consistancy no matter what scheme they are in. i don't know how anyone can say that after seeing them actually play up and get beat time and again. it has been tried and failed. if the talent really is there, can you name a single DB on our defense that another team would give us a first round pick for? or even a 2nd round pick? a 3rd? how can i explain us playing off slower receivers? that i can't and it does fall on our coaches whether they don't have the confidence to play anyone up or just plain never practice doing so. believe me i am not defending our coaching staff but still have to call it like i see it and that is lack of real talent at these positions. next... i certainly don't understand your thinking that a corner wouldn't be happy in a cover 2 like we run. just for curiosities sake, don't you think we play man coverage of some sort nearly every time we blitz? last season we were one of the top blitzing teams in the nfl. plus, even you conceded that we only play the cover 2 in the 'area' of 40% of the time. what are we playing the other 60+%? how could drastically improving our pass defense be a waste of money? it is the weakest link in a defense that has gotten shelled by even BAD quarterbacks!!! it is the main 'DEFENSIVE' reason we will not sniff a superbowl win in the near future in my opinion. as far as free agents unwilling to come here... remember p. daniels? moose - this is the place where "wide receivers go to die"? remember tait? wale? t. washington? k. traylor? r. brown? finally, you ask if our coaches would utilize great talent if they had it? i believe they would. they would have to be completely stupid to stand on that tight rope without a net. if not then they are just taking up space in chicago until they are eventually fired and we have no hope until they are distant memories. in that case our new coaches next season will have a real threat in house for our pass defense.

i'm not sure i understand your reasoning. you concede that if we had an all-pro defensive line we couldn't stop these quick 8 yard passes to TE's. with that i agree (although most of these passes are to the wr's rather than TE's). there is a reason why we are so open on these plays and why they consistantly work. it's because our corners are playing so soft that these zones are always open. we are basically playing in a deep prevent with our DB's. so no matter how good your DL is they just don't have a chance to get to the qb before he releases the ball into these cleared out zones for uncontested receptions. how do you counter this? by having corners GOOD enough to play up and tight taking away these empty zones for 5-10 yard receptions!! so i disagree that it's not the players. we have no talent at safety, especially at free safety, and average/poor talent at corner. not a single cb on this team is good enough to play man up on the LOS without getting beat by more than 3/4's of the receivers in the entire nfl and there is no safety help to compensate for their lack of talent. "getting back to where we were" as you say is not a solution because we were bad defending the pass then also!! picking up this free agent cb from oakland brings respectability to our defensive backfield. we now can, if they are smart enough, move tillman or even try out vasher at free safety, a position we need desperately. this gives us good to great players at 2 positions that are the weakest links on our defense. this takes away that short passing give-a-way, not to mention deep passing attacks, and gives our DL time to reach the qb in passing situations. it free's up our free safety to give help and support to our #2 CB, free's up linebackers if the front four are putting pressure on qb's by not blitzing (thus helping our run defense), and also opens up our strong safety to move in the zones either in run support or defending the short zone passes with our LB's. ADD to this the real depth we now have in nickle and dime packages and gives teeth to any blitz packages we run. how can we afford this high priced player and still get a FA offensive guy? last season alone we tied up $7-8? million dollars on a practice squad quality cornerback which now rolls over into this season. so that takes a lot of heat off the intitial bonus money giving us still enough to bring in a top offensive free agent whether it's a wide receiver or offensive lineman. it also opens up our draft to get whatever first day players we want. if we want another wideout we can go for him. if we want to draft offensive linemen no problem there. we could even look at a safety, strongside linebacker or a replacement for url. this would be critical for the health of our franchises future which you agree needs to be built around the draft.

WOW, my mistake. i don't follow the raiders at all and i was obviously reading dated material. al davis really IS nuts. well i guess that opens up a whole new train of thought on whether the raiders can afford to give him a big contract.

huh??? are you saying hall isn't worth it or asomugha? if you mean asomugha i disagree. we fill 2 positions on defense with one high end contract and an excellent cover corner helps our defense more than any other type of player against the pass happy nfl.

this is the #1 free agent i go for this offseason. since ASHKUM BEAR brought this guys attention to the board i have argued that this is the premier free agent that will help our entire team for the same reasons i argued for charles woodson 3-4 years ago. so angie gets a redo if he is even reasonably smart. asomugha is an unrestricted free agent and the only way the raiders can hope to keep him is either offer him a huge contract or franchise him for BIG money. although it's hard to outguess a quite mad al davis, in a sane world i say they can't afford to do either. the raiders need some serious upgrades to personnel and tying that much money up for a pair of all-pro corners would not help them. they just aquired d. hall last season for a huge *contract and couldn't cut him if they wanted to. if angie offered similar to what hall got we could still get another premium FA (WR or OT) if we wanted to. our team would immediately be better next season especially if this marinelli is half the dog all claim. a cover corner would give our d-line added time to get to the qb not to mention we would have either tillman or possibly vasher move over to FS. a double win situation get it done ANGELO!!! *A source told ESPN's Chris Mortensen that the deal is for seven years and worth $70 million. The amount of guaranteed money and bonuses in the contract have not been finalized. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3300199

1. just what are the parameters of the original question "Which would you rather have after 2 years, and why?"? to me that says after 2 years in chicago which type of receiver would you "rather" have with the stats provided. if you picked #1 you have a deep threat wide receiver in chicago in 2 years with the information provided. if you picked #2 you have a possession receiver in chicago with the information provided. seems pretty simple to me or you'd go nuts figuring out how X receiver (wherever he comes from) with X linemen and X qb from chicago would PROJECT to be stats wise don't ya think?? otherwise you could say anything about the receiver in question. he could be from a team with the poorest offense in the nfl or he could be one from the best. to top that off, maybe orton will play like john elway this coming season too. quiji board time. as far as grossman... what does he have to do with anything? are we now going to go back and determine whether it was grossman or the OL's fault for each and every sack? sure they sent the dogs because we had no running game, ONE average + receiver and a qb who was one of the worst qb in the pocket i have ever seen to go along with a consistent 3rd and long. incidently our stats for sacks allowed went from 22nd in 2007 to 12th best in 2008. 1. well which is it? you state you now believe hester is a deep threat receiver and later “view him as a slot guy”. plus, even you won't admit hester is even worthy of being our #2 receiver!!! being a #3 or lower receiver surely is not being a serious every down threat no matter what type of receiver you are considered in my book. 2. when have i ever argued any receiver on this entire team is even average let alone better than “nothing”? whether good, bad, or otherwise there is not a single deep threat POSSIBILITY on our entire squad other than the receiver you believe would be a slot receiver. i’m sorry but your recollection or reasoning is faulty. gault had world class speed and WAS specifically used in most instances as a receiver who burned it to pull the defensive backs with him in coverage defending the long ball (opening up our running game AND our short passing attack). in ’85 gault was the top receiver but with only 700 of the 3303 receiving yards for the entire season. our runningbacks, combined, had more rec. yards than gault!! for crying out loud, he ran poor routes and had average, AT BEST, hands and never in his career had a 1000 yd season. why else would they have put him on the field? note... aren’t we talking about a receiver who is projecting to be far BETTER than gault in this discussion anyway?? TJ over johnson in his prime? all i can say is, wow. TJ may be a very good receiver but johnson is a 5 time pro-bowl, 3 time all-pro receiver who racked up SIX straight thousand plus yard seasons!! to me that’s franchise quality. i am really confused. now you only want to debate what ‘our’ coaching staff/gm believes? they believed last season all these receivers were good enough to not only play in chicago but start. they believed our current roster of offensive linemen were just dandy to start the 2008 season etc. etc. etc. whatever orton’s accuracy is or isn’t i do believe he has a solid arm. “just for the record”, you don’t? i also believe orton CAN improve on his deep ball as it is just a matter of timing between him and his receivers (or lack thereof). you know i find it amazing that you and others are looking at orton as if he were a grizzled veteran starter and what you see is what you get. this guy has started ONE season in his entire career. in that time, and especially before he injured his ankle, the guy has shown some real promise especially considering he is playing behind an atrocious run blocking offensive line, an average pass blocking line, has not a single #1 receiver (or #2 for that matter), and relied nearly entirely on our TE’s for his passing attack and had a defense that opponents racked up serious riding time and points. am i saying he is great at this point in his career? of course not!! but i will say he does have potential at this point in his career to become a good to very good + ball player. does that mean i bet the farm he progresses into that player and do nothing at that position in our future like angie did with grossman? HELL no. do you also believe our TE’s suck? do you also believe our passing game to our RB’s sucks also? look... i agree our receiving corp is bad. but in my estimation we have in our TE’s very good possession type receivers and need someone who has the ‘ability’ to clear out the zones and stretch the field. i just don’t get your reasoning. in one breath you say it’s “a building process” with this team, and in the next you base your assumptions on our team being in stasis for the next 2 years. you think just because a receiver is a deep threat type of player that that is ALL he does is run downfield on post routes with lightning speed? that is nonsense. you don’t even NEED supersonic speed to be a deep threat. for crying out loud do you think moss is fast? or owens? or for that matter jerry rice??? all three of those mentioned are/were serious deep threat receivers and ran a 4.5 or worse 40!!! what are you talking about? so WHAT if he had more catches. who CARES if the yardage is close. the point is a possession type receiver is NOT a deep threat receiver who stretches the field and pulls more defenders from underneath to cover him. haven’t you SEEN enough our offense to make a determination? why don’t you think there was much YAC for our receivers? why don’t you think our running game was as good as it could have been without 8-9 men in the box? with a true deep threat wideout, what do you think our #2 wide receiver is making in yards? or our TE’s yardage, our RB’s passing yards, our RB’s running yards and what do you get? a better offense, that’s what!! big deal? how many deep threat +1000 yrd receivers have we had in chicago over the last 10 years? if you said TWO you win a cigar. know who and when? 1999 robinson – 1400 yds – s. matthews 2001 – booker – 1070 yds – j. miller 2002 – booker – 1189 yds – j. miller that’s SIX freakin years since we had any receiver go over 1000 yards. by the way, which of those qb’s do YOU consider to have a strong arm and great deep ball? 1. are we now talking about what old receivers are considered today? the last i heard we were comparing which TYPE of receiver you would want in chicago. 2. when did i ever say 18+ yards or whatever qualifies a receiver to be a deep threat? that is YOUR reasoning not mine. i have to add... if you don’t think ward OR mason were/are deep threat receivers you are just plain wrong. as far as booker? yea i think i would call him a deep threat type receiver in his prime. franchise player good? no. you know, i don’t recall i ever said that TJ wasn’t a deep threat type of receiver. what i DID say is i would take a johnson type of franchise caliber receiver rather than TJ. in their prime. why? because he was better at it. he had more tools than TJ. could TJ be considered a deep threat receiver today? even if you think he was/is a possession type receiver i would probably answer yes. would i still take johnson in his prime? yes. 3. again... you are taking what i stated out of context. show me where i EVER stated a deep threat wideout needs “elite” speed to be one. finally... just what is a possession type receiver in your estimation? i’m not sure you know. when i think of one, i think of a tom waddle type receiver. someone with good hands that plays a lot over the middle and can take a big hit and still hang on to the ball. someone who can catch the ball in traffic for first downs with linebackers and safeties sniffing him. basically in a 10 yard zone from the LOS who adds up yardage with consistency. rarely do you see a player of this type go more than 1000 yards in a season.

i guess you can figure it out any way you want but the fact is manning was a second round pick not a 1st round pick.

angelo's M.O. is to draft offense in the first round and defense in the second and an even mix in the third.

or maybe the colts? between him and sanders they should see a full season.

1. to me a thousand yard deep threat receiver far outweighs a possession type receiver and especially in our offense. it only stands to reason if we had a deep threat wideout with over a thousand yard season that our other aspects of a passing game are also going to get a lot more work underneath with MORE success. defenses aren't going to be playing entirely in a 10 yard zone defending our passing game, where not only are our receivers bunched up, in but also our good receiving TE's. again, this scenario listed is pretty sketchy without any details, but i have to assume this guy has speed to be a deep threat along with some decent hands. we already have an entire receiving corp who are SUPPOSED to be possession type receivers with the exception of hester. most people, including yourself, consider hester barely a #2 let alone a #1. 2. i think you could even look at the 85 bears as a prime example. we had gault as a stretch receiver. in my opinion he wasn't that good of a receiver, BUT... what he DID do was extend the field to give our possession receivers, TE's, RB's a lot more room to make plays. he had to be accounted for because he had the speed to break the game open. i guess it would come down to this... if you had a choice for a wide receiver in his prime, would you choose chad johnson or housawhatever? a moss or burlson? me i take a johnson or moss deep threat without even blinking. first of all i am not even sold that hester is even #2 quality at this point in his career. but even considering if you do, how many post or go routes has hester been successful at? is it orton (the egg) or hester (the chicken)? the fact is he has done much better on slants and curls getting his yards after catch. i can only assume a legitimate deep threat is going to improve our passing attack by making those thousand yard + seasons in this scenario. i would also like to answer your 1st down pickup point. isn't that what our possession receivers, TE's and runningbacks are supposed to do? right now all our receivers have the same M.O. again you want to build an entire team before picking up any key players. that is fine and good but does this mean we pass on real prospects until we have an all-pro offensive line? in fact, our OL has been much better at pass protection than run blocking. i can only assume (right angie?) our first round tackle improves that since that is what he was projected to excel at. is that to say we don't need improvement? a-b-s-o-l-t-e-l-y not!!! this whole model scenario is based on the production that was initially listed at the start of this thread so how can i or anyone converse about this without the assumption the receiver we got actually put up the numbers stated initially? again, you are assuming hester either IS or will become a #1 wideout so you have decided to pass on a deep threat type receiver. this is clearly not the case as he has proved nothing yet in regards to a franchise quality receiver. yet again i will state that possession receivers are a dime a dozen compared to deep threat thousand yard wideouts. if you can get a projected thousand yard per season wideout you plain and simple do it. i have to also comment on your flawed logic in regards to mason or ward: both of these receivers are/were #1 receivers. in their prime if they garnered less than a thousand yard season they wouldn't even have been considered as a #1. they both in their prime did have reasonably good speed and WERE considered deep threats. forget flacco, mcnair certainly was a deep ball qb and if you were to tell me ward wasn't an 18+ yard threat downfield i would have to disagree with you.

i agree. although this poll lacks a lot of info such as speed/size i too take the LEGITIMATE deep threat. especially in todays nfl it is important to be able to stretch the field and get the safeties out of the box. this not only helps your #2 wideout (who SHOULD be a possession receiver with good hands) but in our case seriously helps our TE's AND running back passing options. to add to the benefit of this, our running game should improve drastically. it is also, in my opinion, MUCH harder to find a real deep threat receiver than a possession type of player.

i have to disagree with your disagreement. angie hasn't spent a FIRST DAY pick at CB in 5 years!! and that was peanut in 2003 at the #2 spot. prior to that the only first day pick he EVER drafted was roosevelt williams (CB?) in 2002 as a 3rd round pick. let's face it, while peanut and vasher's misguided payday came last year their salaries don't compare to elite CB's in the nfl today. again you and i disagree about why our corners play off the LOS. i actually can say i WATCHED peanut, vasher and all the other CB's play tight on the LOS. they were toasted nearly every play and in the past were crucified in the media for getting beat for long gains or TD's. they were getting juked at the LOS and missing even getting a hand on them resulting in follow up coverage 5+ yds in the trail because they DON'T have the speed to make it up. the only time peanut was effective was early in his career before any serious leg/knee injury when he played moss (with the vikings) tight along with the large receivers in green bay's receiving corp. since that time the nfl has changed and gone more with the s. smith/galloway type receivers which he plain CAN'T play bump and run with. even this last season we played both our corners up at times and had poor, to say the least, results. smith would be nuts to give our corners assignments that they couldn't handle. his best hope is giving up the smaller chunks of yardage to compensate for big gains and HOPE the d-line can pressure the qb. the only problem with that is our line CAN'T and we CONSISTENTLY give up chunks of yardage like this keeping our D on the field for extended periods of time because offenses have it figured out and we have NO counter. a cover corner would make this particular defense a lot harder to play against than another defensive end in my opinion. especially when we could move one corner to FS and have great depth for our nickle packages.

i agree with your assessment. although not great by any means if this marinneli hiring is half as good as many on here reports it should improve our defensive line by leaps and bounds. if not then it's going to be the same ole, same ole this season too. IF even part of angelo's brain is working at half speed he will go after that corner in oakland (can't remember his name) and offer some picks this year and next to get him. in my estimation the most improvement on defense would be to get either a killer FS who can cover OR a cover corner who CAN play bump and run. as you stated, a corner who can play tight and shut down these quick release passing attacks WILL give our d-line time to get to the qb and make a world of difference in our overall defense. it also opens up the possibility, with a cb, that one of our current corners can move to the free safety position. this gives us 2 upgrades for one price. i know some have said lovie's scheme dictates the corners play off but i still contend the REASON they do is because they can't play bump and run to get the jam at the LOS without getting toasted. this oakland guy puts that baby to bed. that leaves angie still looking for, at the LEAST, a GOOD #1 wide receiver, who i believe we could still afford to pay, after getting the corner from oakland by using the rollover cap money from last season. then we draft a first day guard and a FS. then let buenning compete for a guard/right tackle spot and give tait the heave-ho. do i have confidence our fearless leader will do this? HELL NO!!! angie probably WILL pay big bucks for another d-lineman to compliment the wasted first day picks and other free agents he has brought in and pick up a second/third tier WR in free agency to become our umteenth #2 or #3 wide out so the wr draft picks he did make can sit on the freakin bench behind the practice squad 6th and 7th round picks he gets this year and keep our 'promising' offensive line as it stands.

although i have tried to erase this era completely from memory, there is no getting around the fact that shea was a BAD offensive coordinator. someone that made what little talent we had even worse. if memory serves me right, and it might not, shea's passing game called for a lot of 4 and 5 step drops and hitting medium/deep routes... 1. the routes were more complex than the receivers experience and/or talent dictated. 2. our qb's that year had an amazing *66 sacks and 20 fumbles to go along with 16 INT's. this means we are not getting rid of the ball quick enough to compensate for our OL's poor performance. 3. i don't believe? our qb's were not allowed to change plays at the LOS no matter how the defense lined up against them. this led to our OL unable to compensate for blitzes and stunts. there also seemed to be no gametime adjustments at all. i just used this as an example. i stated in the previous post a first or even second year coach gets 'some' slack until he gets up to speed. even so, lovie surely should have had some input on this bad of an offense.

to me this is a perfect example of when a head coach should step in. in shea's instance he kept expecting these qb's to perform according to his gameplans that simply were unrealistic considering the talent. yet we saw the same mistakes over and over with no real expectations that they would get better. that is when a HC needs to sit his offensive coaches down and come up with a solution or a different method of attack. i think you could say this was a problem not only with lovie but jauron as well. jauron never reined in crowton and within 2 years he was gone and our win loss record showed it. the same could be said of shoop's 3 yards and a cloud of dust offensive schemes. it cost jauron his coaching job. a final example, and maybe more minor than the other two, would be turner's insistence of mckie punching the ball in up the middle on the goal line when it had failed a number of times in the past. it simply did not work because we not only didn't have an offensive line good enough to get the goal line push but teams were ready and waiting for it. yet turner continued to waste redzone downs trying to change the results.

maybe i'm wrong but wasn't it reported that lovie was bumping heads with rivera before he was fired? i also think it was "time to change some of that" last season when our defense was failing and was a big part in why we missed the playoffs by one game.

we are just not communicating well on this point. no i don't think a defensive oriented head coach should be required to understand an offense well enough to take over play calling duties of an OC. what i meant was he should have enough of an understanding to see faults in philosophy, game plans or adjustments made during a game and make it clear what these differences are and what direction he wants the OC to move forward in. or if he feels the OC is not performing well he should be able to understand why and replace the OC responsibly if necessary. this could also hold true to offensive position coaches.

i have to disagree somewhat on this statement. if this were lovie's first and MAYBE even his second season he might get a 'bit' of slack as far as his understanding where to turn the corner on an offense. 1. i believe that when you are designated as a head coach (and not just lovie) this throws all the exclusive departmental scenarios out the window. it is now your job to understand each individual aspect of your team as a whole and have at the least a general understanding of each individual part and be able to make cognizant decisions in how each is run and if it needs modification when/if the need arises. it is HIS job to train himself to understand these basics. am i saying he should educate himself enough to take over an offenses day to day operations and in-game strategies? probably not. should he educate himself enough to change coordinator duties if he returns to the nfl in that capacity? probably not. but he SHOULD be able to understand enough to tell his underlings that what they are doing does not fit in the scheme he requires as a head coach and suggest changes that are required to do so not only in a general sense but in actual game-time conditions. 2. i have to wonder... doesn't a defensive coordinator HAVE to have at least a basic understanding of how offenses work in order to do his job effectively? otherwise how could you prepare your defense to attack an opponents offense? on a final note: if this is not true, then if you hired a special teams coach to run your team would his only duties require only an understanding of how the special teams portion work? i would think your team would be in serious trouble if this were the case.

the statement you made about angelo hits the mark. it takes the media to crucify him after a dismal season for poor drafting and misguided priorities before he finally 'gets' it? on to lovie... just what does lovie actually do as HC? just designate his coordinators complete control and sit back on cruise control until the season is over? starting out with shay as our OC it seemed shay was in over his head with play calling. yet lovie did nothing to change the offensive foremat and as a matter of fact seemed unable to even get on the same page as shay with changes lovie said needed to occur. to say shay was out of control is an understatement. is turner now in complete charge of this teams offense without any input, changes, direction or goals set by lovie? it seems quite obvious that lovie has absolutely nothing to contribute on this side of the ball other than mouthing "we need to get off the bus running" when appropriate. on defense we see the same modus operandi. babich is in over his head and yet lovie verbally throws in his complete support without action. truth be known, is lovie's understanding of defense so shallow that he really doesn't have a clue how to fix it and is relying on babich to come up with game plans and game adjustments? at season's end lovie leads us to believe this next season will change/be different because he will now provide input as to how our defense is run? strap yourselves in people, it's gonna be a long season or two.

i have to ask... with our defense crumbling before our very eyes, why didn't lovie get "more involved" last season? i would also like to note that linebacker coach 'shouldn't' be a major concern seeing as that was lovie's JOB when he started out coaching in the nfl. makes you wonder why he would appoint babich to that position after firing the previous coach, who i can only assume, lovie didn't "get more involved" with.

this was the word on the street/press and not from our organization. they seemed to think that he was a one trick pony. i heard he was not happy with the cards organization and was vocal about it. no big deal considering the owners as far as i'm concerned. but even is he was a lockerroom problem you take your shot with a player of this quality that WANTS to be in chicago. i seriously don't think with the years of experience we had on our defensive line such as ted washington and keith traylor he would have gotten away with anything detrimental before being stomped into the turf.