Lucky Luciano

i agree wholeheartedly. what the $%#@ is lovie thinking?? put your STARTING corner on the field with 2nd string players to field punts in a freakin pre-season game when the position is locked already by hester???? that is just plain stupid.

pix i am 100% in agreement. good arm, great touch on the ball, balls on target and very catchable, nice footwork, good pocket presence, good physical properties, and nice scrambling abilities. this kid looked like a seasoned vet out there. this kids play was exceptional. in fact i will say i want to see him get some playing time with the 2nd string offense next game. if he looks as good with the 2nds i want to see him get some time with the first squad in pre-season.

i would say this effectively ends his season and hopefully doesn't end his career. you are correct. disk problems are very serious and may not go away. a disk problem like this could in reality be a career ending situation. it could prevent him from heavy lifting which effects is strength not to mention could also effect his speed/legwork. for an offensive lineman who relies on strength and power on nearly every play by using his legs and lower back to block is a major concern long term. the whole situation of this being a "new injury" also sounds fishy to me. i would like to see the reports of what type of back problems other teams found in him that took him off their draft boards. another fine mess you've gotten us into angie.

i just can't believe that a situation like ours is going to remain stasis for years at a time. so for our franchise to look for/aquire a qb who doesn't have the arm strength to make those throws accurate or otherwise would be a huge mistake. i would also like to add that a five step drop and launch the ball downfield without waiting for a WR to reach this 25-30 yd depth before making the throw is realistic for a qb with a strong arm by him adjusting the trajectory of the pass to compensate for the WR getting into that zone. plus, even if you only throw long once or twice a game it keeps the safeties from playing tight and stuffing your run game if they know they 'can' get beat on a long scoring play. it opens up your running game and your short to medium passing game as well if a WR can clear them out of the short zones during a series even if used as a decoy. the DB's have to react immediately or get beaten by the WR on a deep route. agree, most are NOT downfield passes and the short to medium depth is the most proficient passing game. but... again, you need to also have it in the defenses mindset they need to be wary of the long ball too to open up these shorter routes. defenses at this time are stacking the box AND blitzing because rex has shown a flaw in his game by not being able to handle the pressure and/or recognize these packages as they develop. the offensive line also shares in this dilema with grossman as they are letting more defenders through than our backs and te's are able to pick up in their blocking duties. i want to also add that some of these blitzes are LB blitzes and the safeties are playing deep zones in passing situations. they are willing to give up the intermediate passing yardage to rattle him into an INT or a sack and at the worst they give up the 5-10 yd receptions by covering the long ball threat with deep safeties. if he couldn't at least throw a long ball they would just stack the box like they did against griese or other qb's like s. matthews who couldn't make the throws and force everything in an area 10-15 yds from the LOS.

the Oline also needs to open up passing lanes for the qb to make the throws. if the line is always back on it's heels or getting pushed into the pocket it doubles the problems for the qb especially if he doesn't roll out well. as far as TB... forget simms, i would like to pick up favre from them in a double trade.

here are the traits i consider that are needed to become a successful nfl quarterback: 1) first of all, he has to have the physical tools to excel at that position. he has to have the size, speed, attitude, and strength that past successful NFL players have PROVEN to be neccessary to play that position at the highest level. also, in my opinion, 6'1 is the absolute bare minimum in size for an nfl qb. 6'3" - 6'5" is the optimum size and what i would shoot for. 2) the most important attribute a qb with the basic physical tools can have is accuracy. without it he will fail miserably. this involves being able to think "quickly" in three dimentional space which is paramount to understanding in a fraction of a second where the ball has to go and getting it there in relation to the defenders and receivers, all in motion, with reasonable expectations of a completion. i have to disagree somewhat with your statement about the ability to throw the long ball. without arm strength to make the deep throw he limits the size of the field which will make it much, much harder to succeed in the nfl against todays defenses. even if he is inaccurate on a long ball it still keeps defenses honest if they know his arm is at least strong enough to make those types of passes. that said, a MUST in my opinion is to have enough arm strength to consistantly make accurate throws in the 10-20 yd range of the field. 3) mental aspects that are a must: A) he has to be able to feel pressure from the outside (that mental clock ticking the seconds off) and compliment it by stepping up into the pocket or release and scramble. without it he won't stay healthy or make the plays that are needed to succeed. although it's not neccessary to have the running abilities like a cunningham, vick etc. he does need to have the ability to roll out with authority and make short yardage when neccessary. the next is being able to read a defense and understand where and how the defense is going to react to the play he hopes to run and make the decision whether to run that play as designed or change it on the fly. usually this comes with game experience but more than a few fail to ever grasp this situation. C) he needs heart and a driving desire to win which includes the ability to lead his teamates.

you are correct. i did not explain very well what i was talking about. good job looking up the stats and facts. as cryptic, and i’ll give you exagerated, as my original post was in regards to my meaning maybe this will help... what i was referring to is the individual performance of the qb on this squad that we resigned - specifically *rex grossman (although i ‘think’ some of griese’s performances could fit into this persona as well), whom we extended a short term contract and i tried to compare it to angelo’s explanation as to why we went RB rather than picking a qb prospect: “the reason they didn't take QB is the organization thought RB was a much higher need”. although i didn’t research prior qb’s than the last 2 years i find it hard to believe that any starting qb, even for the bears, could have had a lower qb rating than a single digit or the unbelievable ‘0’ rating and still be touted as our possible starting qb the following seasons without any thought of change. forget the injury history, qb’s with ratings over a 2 year period like that are NOT in my opinion to be considered in any way a proven, elite, starter, someone you can count on or feel good about qb by any means. especially when that qb has been active for 4 – 5 years and you are still talking about potential. to bet your franchises season on qb’s like grossman and orton with no concern for future replacement if neither pans out is a poor, poor management practice and the same MO we have used for decades. *i put orton’s info in there also to show what he accomplished but i have to weight this considering the total amount of games and when those games occurred over the last 2 years. i also have to weight in the factor that they didn’t even consider orton an option when replacing an injured griese in mid season. that in itself should be testimony enough of what angelo thinks/thought of orton. it certainly isn’t inspiring, at least to me. below are some various stats over the last 2 years. i didn’t put in the fumble turnover stats as it related to grossman because the info i had didn’t include that stat. so, if i made some mistakes, feel free to correct me. 2006 - grossman 140.125 ave yds last 3/4 reg season total yds for reg season 3281 average 205 yds per game for reg season 8 fumbles for reg season JETS vs grossman 11 for 22 111 net yds passing - this includes 57 yds on one td pass to bradley OR 56 yds total for rest of game 0 INT's sacks - 1 for -8 yds -1 yd rushing qb rating - 79.9% CARDS vs grossman 14 of 37 130 net yds passing 4 INT's sacks - 2 for -14 yds -7 yds rushing qb rating 8.6% VIKES vs grossman in chicago 6 of 19 24 net yds passing sacks - 1 for -10 yds 3 INT's -9 yds rushing qb rating - 1.3% PACKERS vs grossman/griese game 2 grossman - 2 of 12 33 yds 3 INT's -1 yd rushing qb rating - '0' % griese - 5 of 15 124 yds - bradley 75 yd td pass - rest of game griese total was 49 yds 2 INT's 2 sacks in game for -13 yds how many single digit qb ratings? a qb rating of 46.9% 2007 - grossman total yds for reg season 8 games 1411 average 176 yds per game for reg season 6 fumbles for reg season the first games for grossman were bad and he was relieved by griese. the second few games he looked much better and more loose BUT again he got injured. BOLTS vs grossman 12 for 23 122 net yds passing 1 INT's sacks - 3 for -23 yds 0 td qb rating - 49.5% KC vs grossman 20 for 34 132 net yds passing 2 INT's sacks - 3 for -28 yds 1 td qb rating - 52.5% COWBOYS vs grossman 15 for 33 164 net yds passing 3 INT's sacks - 3 for -31 yds 0 td qb rating - 22.9% came back in after griese injured and played 4 games before he was injured again. orton came in game 13 and by that time the season was over for chicago. i can't say orton did poorly when he came in and the talent on defense he played against was pretty good with a possible exception of NO. i have to wonder why he was not put in to replace griese when grossman returned again before his injury. makes you wonder about the competence of the coaches and gm in this franchise. VIKES vs orton 22 for 38 177 net yds passing 1 INT sacks - 1 for -7 yds 0 td qb rating - 58.7% PACK vs orton game 2 - horrible conditions 9 for 15 104 net yds passing 0 INT sacks - 1 for -7 yds 1 td qb rating - 102.9% NO vs orton 13 for 28 199 net yds passing 1 INT sacks - 2 for -20 yds 3 td qb rating - 91.2%

thanks, that was the guy i couldn't remember, wesley. here is my thought on the process angelo used on wesley... he hires wesley away from being a special teams player who played behind ricky manning jr. and gives him supposedly a shot at the nickle slot in chicago. angelo THEN hires the guy who was ahead of wesley on the SAME team for considerably MORE money to compete for the same position. that's completely a slap in the face or lie on angelo's part to wesley. it's already almost a given, considering the amount of bonus and salary money, that manning jr. gets the job. it was a stupid move by angelo and certainly didn't give wesley the fair shake angelo promised. 1. i agree it should be a lot easier finding good running backs than good qb's (although finding good rb's doesn't seem to be angelo's case in chicago). but... in todays nfl the qb is the most important position on the entire team, bar none. if you have failed to find that guy, to keep looking should STILL be the top priority every year. just because a rookie qb may not start immediately is absolutely no reason not to keep drafting quality players if you have as pitiful a record of qb's like this franchise has had. even if it takes 3 years to get a quality qb into the lineup the end result will pay for itself tenfold if you have a franchise qb to play for your team another ten years. i will even say you should keep drafting good prospects even if you do have a quality franchise qb is a good practice. 2. agree one needs good talent around him. but you can also build your offense around that quality qb instead of waiting till everything else is in place to do so. surrounding him with talent is much easier to do with free agency that exists today and shouldn't be a deterrent. the benefits involved in this type of mindset is that the most important piece of the puzzle is under contract and you can then draft or acquire players to compliment him and his skills to the fullest extent instead of trying to find a qb to fit your existing scheme which is narrowing the field even more. 3. if benson was that big of a risk that you considered cutting him before camp then bring in an older free agent. in this day and age it's not that hard to find decent short term free agent rb's. then you can draft that qb prospect who you can groom until he is considered ready. if the qb's we have today actually do a miraculous turnaround you have a great draft prospect to keep in case of injury or a great trade possibility if he has shown good potential. if our qb's don't turn out we have their replacement who has learned our system already and we don't throw a rookie into the fire. i just don't see why this can't be done. some teams like the packers do this all the time.

i could be wrong, but didn't angelo give his word to the cb we got from the panthers days BEFORE we hired ricky manning jr. to play the same role? also, what evidence has angelo seen to make him remotely believe ANY of our qb's are even capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time let alone being capable nfl starters? these are some of the reasons angelo gives me cold sweats. our qb staff over the last 2 years produced the worst offensive stats in the history of a franchise whose known for the worst offenses over the last 50 years. yet angelo thinks a runningback was a much higher need??? this EVEN when benson was touted as being a viable starter by this franchises coaches and angelo himself before and after the draft? what dimension is he living in? it's mindboggling how this guy thinks!!

1. now would be the time to roll them dice for a ring and damn the cap for the next 3 years. there may not even be one after that amount of time anyway so if angelo gets the chance to sign a player that makes us a real contender for the superbowl immediately for the next 2-3 years and can't figure out a way to do it he's an idiot. if we wait to groom the crap (compared to favre) at qb we have now or have to draft another high first day pick, url, m. brown, ogie and peanut, tait, booker and kreutz are either going to be up there in age and falling in talent or just plain gone. so that leaves us hoping one of our qb's can even play average and nobody gets hurt on offense or defense to get to the championship game while they are still viable players. 2. agree and i hope turner was using this ploy because if he in truth really likes our qb situation more than bringing in a pro-bowl hall of fame qb even at his age he is a complete buffoon. 3. absolutely yes! if the vikes field even an aging qb with the talent favre has THEY contend for a superbowl spot instantly. plus, what would they have to lose by doing so? if they are going to be prosecuted by the nfl i say they go as a lion instead of the lamb anyway. my thoughts: i think favre knows more about football in the nfl than turner ever dreamed of and could over-rule stupid calls by our great OC on the field without too much feedback from our coaching staff. that also plays to an advantage of bringing him in. it's a win win situation for us to do so. some people on here seem to hate favre more than a world championship. i just don't see it. i hate the cowboys more than any team on earth but i still would have taken aikman any day of the week. i think favre has 2 years and >maybe

i don't see how we can pass on favre. even as old as he is he is so much better than anything on our squad at this point in time (or over the last 25 years for that matter) including the turnovers he brings. he immediately opens up our running game which everyone seems to want desperately by actually making our passing game something that has to be accounted for by opposing defenses. his style of football works perfectly with the personnel and scheme we now employ. he gets rid of the ball in a hurry which helps our struggling OL, a TE fits perfectly into his style of football and we have two decent to good ones, he has worked with a multitude of young and new wide receivers and improved their game immensely, he is actually a good onfield leader, he fits the age timeframe for our aging talented players final run at a superbowl. if angie doesn't at least make a play for him at this point he is stupid.

what i am 'suggesting' is that if that player going to that smaller, OR larger school for that matter, was not even on the radar as to the slot he was drafted, then i believe it IS >>'possible' is this some wild radical idea i pulled out of my hat? as radical an idea as this is, it happens with the #1 pick nearly every year. so is this so far fetched to believe it happens in other rounds? also, if players can be believed, this practice happened in chicago in the past. a phone call from our franchise asking if X player would sign for X money if they draft them in X slot in the draft. do i have hard facts if this is true or not? no, only the recollection of players stating this years ago and watching players negotiating on the phone draft day. i have a novel idea, why don't YOU provide some facts as to the monetary amounts for players that were drafted a round or MORE before expected to go by us and compare it to the players contracts paid in the slot before and after by other teams that same year. i'm more than happy to concede this point if you prove the price is right over the last 8-10 years. i would also like to comment on your payton analysis... this holds about as much water as a thimble. payton was RANKED to go in the first round when we drafted him. he was CONSIDERED a top talent and it was NOT a case of us drafting someone nobody but us heard of. the same goes for other picks in various rounds throughout draft history, they were slotted as having enough talent to warrant that position in the draft no matter what school they came from. “overloading people with useless info”? do you mean information/facts i used to dispute or challenge nfoligno’s DIRECT comments to ME? or do you mean me wasting my time looking up and posting information that disputes what i stated because you are too lazy to do it yourself? OR, maybe you should READ the ENTIRE thread before making “useless” comments yourself. well, just to help you out, i did look it up for you. if you have any “useless information” or even facts to dispute the following please feel free to post them...... dick jauron: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2003/dec/30/b...agement_defies/ Rick Morrissey - Chicago Tribune “Given that the Bears will have to pay Jauron $2.4 million for the final year of his contract, Fassel would be a decent compromise between the coaches who will want megabucks, such as LSU's Nick Saban, and the list of inexpensive NFL coordinators the Bears historically hire.” although i’m sure this is more “useless info” and facts, you might want to compare the tail end of jauron’s EXTENSION salary value above, when it expired, to what coaches were *making in the nfl when smith was hired. if the tribune is correct jauron was being paid in the bottom 1/3 of head coaches in the nfl. ============ http://www.1urbanavenue.com/stories/2007/0...0301bears.shtml lovie smith: “The lowest-paid coach in the NFL last season at $1.35 million when he led the Bears to the Super Bowl, Smith's deal will average about $4.7 million per season over five years.” http://chicagobearsfanforum.com/pipermail/...rch/000483.html * “In the meantime, the NFL coach of the year will get only a pat on the > back and the knowledge that six of his colleagues make more than $4 > million a year, led by Seattle's Mike Holmgren at $7.5 million. Ten > make more than $3 million a year; 12 make more than $2 million and > three make more than $1.8 million while Smith brings up the rear, > according to multiple NFL reports and sources.” ======================= http://www.newsday.com/topic/sns-chicagobears,0,963422.story angie’s contract: “The job is expected to pay in the $600,000-$750,000 a year range, the low end for a general manager but a significant increase in what any of the finalists are now earning. One of the candidates eliminated earlier in the six-week interview process said he would ask for at least a six-year contract because 2001 "is already shot."” hmmmm.... does that say it all? even angie got low-balled well excuse the hell out of me for only posting a recollection of 10 yrs vs. 18 yrs which, by the way, supports MY argument more anyway. the point that >>i>POSIBILITY thanks for the links. they totally dispute everything you just stated. so sorry but on that scale, $30 million dollars is peanuts. to state the taxpayers aren’t paying the lions share of the burden is a ridiculous comment. according to the APSE article, you yourself linked, the bear franchise ponied up $30 million dollars for the stadium renovation out of their OWN pockets of the $632 million dollar renovation of soldier field. $400+ million dollars paid by taxpayers, $150 million dollars paid by the nfl. how does that $150 mil from the nfl get paid back you ask? read the article you linked yourself. “Most of it is not repaid by the borrowing team, but from the visiting team's cut of club-seat money.” yea, i guess i am going into that “rubbish” once more for your sake. again, i also GET IT, there are times that a team actually pays out, >>TEMPORARILY it is also true that every year previous amounts of this front “bonus” money are paid back and put into the pocket of the owners or used to pay off the loans they took to get it. so what that means is that at the very MOST you, as a franchise, are paying interest ONLY on the money if you had to borrow it. below is a model of how this could possibly work for the owners... first and foremost i am not a statistician, a CPA, or even a math wiz for that matter, and you can take the following “useless info” and put it into perspective if you find it incorrect: most banks in the world would loan you money with a secured loan and usually, if i’m not mistaken, at around a 1% return. as an example i used $10 mil as an easy figure to regulate at the 1% over prime for a pro rated signing bonus over a 5 year period. at 1% loan interest the costs would be: 1st year interest $100,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 2nd year interest $80,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 3rd year interest $60,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 4th year interest $40,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 5th year interest $20,000 with final 20% payback of borrowed money total actual cost of borrowing the $10 mil bonus money over this five year period - $280,000 with interest at 1% let’s say the previous example is crap (which it well may be) and go with a straight loan of $10 mil at 4% interest as an example:. 1st year interest $400,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 2nd year interest $320,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 3rd year interest $240,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 4th year interest $160,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money 5th year interest $80,000 with final payback of borrowed money total actual cost of borrowing $10 mil bonus money over a five year period - $1,200,000 at straight 4% you can look at these yearly amounts of interest money as being paid back from the slop that is left over YEARLY from that same years cap allowances doled out by the league that aren’t spent and used as a reserve for emergencies in case of injury etc.. usually between $.5 to $3+ million dollars, depending upon the franchise, at the end of a season and still show a profit from this. so the theory it takes a well healed generous owner to pay these bonus’s out of his own pocket is nonsense. the nfl pays for 99.9+% of all player salaries at the start and nobody spends more than the cap allowed in the long run. as far as your statement “with the new CBA a couple of years ago, the 60% of total revenues that the players get is more than just the TV contract money now” it is completely meaningless if the divided salaries paid to the franchises comes from tv money or other league revenue that determines the salary cap. that is exactly one of my POINTS!! why do you keep drafting the same type/position players, not only on defense but actually on offense – RB and WR, on the first day year after year and ignore real needs? don’t you think the offensive line has needed not just starters at every position on the line but good replacement depth since angie came to chicago? as far as beekman... i give you that. he is so invisible on this squad that i missed him in this particular instance as a 4th round pick. although, as i stated in the past, angie drafted 4 offensive linemen in six years in rounds 1-5 including THIS year. that is a sickening fact. hahahaha now you are accusing me of “conveniently” leaving out information. so which is it? am i conveniently leaving out information or am i “overloading people with useless info”? just for curiosities sake did you catch the reference in the first paragraph – “limited budget, and limited time, to locate two assistants” but then i guess limiting personnel budgets wouldn’t be considered >>possibly in FACT my responses were intended to question nfoligno’s statement: “But since Hatley and Phillips began to take over, a pretty dramatic change began, to the point where I just do not see how you can even try and say we still today are a cheap organization. Whether you are talking about money paid to players, coaches and staff, having a GM, or outside costs such as training facility, scouts, etc., I just think the argument today fails.” this INCLUDED commenting upon his training facility costs and scout program in which there is absolutely no indication of spending generosity in the time period he stated according to my “useless info”. just for the record. i never STATED as fact that this franchise WAS cheap. my response (including the “useless info” facts) questioned whether being cheap was a >>possibility finally... which facts did i leave out? i am a bit confused also. you haven’t included a single fact in your whole response except the one dealing with the stadium costs in which you got hung with your own rope. but hey, if you want to check it out, everything i posted on there as a fact to my knowledge, as close as i could find, and was done over a period of HOURS using a google search. i did most of the hard work just finding the names. so do a name search and check the information against nfl personnel. if that’s too difficult for you go to the teams home page and look for not only coaches but STAFF. some list it there. some are/almost impossible to find including the bears. hmmmm i wonder why that is?

you seriously don't think picking up weak players in rounds 2 and 3 makes any financial difference when you sign them? i have to also ask why our scouting staff is spending so much time at these smaller schools? since 2002 angie has picked 5 players from small schools on the first day. that is not even counting the first day REACHES where he could have picked up a player in all probability ROUNDS later. 2002 second pick (3rd rd) in the draft - r. williams - tuskegee 2nd day picks - louisiana tech, pitt?, geogia southern, delaware 2003 3rd pick in the draft - tillman - la lafayette - certainly picked a round or 2 early 2nd day pick 6th rd - b. forsey - boise state. could he have been a walk on? at this point in the draft who knows. 2004 3rd round pick barrian - fresno state? 2nd round pick tank johnson a reach? 2nd day picks - maryland, pitt, miami fl 2005 2nd pick in the draft bradley - certainly a reach with this pick. could have gotten him a round or two later. 2nd day 6th rd pick la monroe again this is the place you reach so questionable as to being a bad pick. 2006 1st pick in draft (rd 2) manning - abilene christian. small school AND a reach. could have gotten him a round or two later. devin hester - certainly a reach at this spot no matter how he turned out. 2007 2nd pick bazuin - central mich, small school AND a reach in the 2nd round. g. wolfe northern illinois - a small school AND a reach. could have certainly gotten him a round or two later. michael okwo a REACH. 2nd day 4th rd pick j. beekman - a reach. kevin payne la monroe rd 5 - a reach AND small school. corey graham new hampshire 2008 2nd pick forte - a reach. 3rd pick bennet - probably a reach. 2nd day - bowman a reach, and davis? still scratching my head over that one another reach? another interesting note: 5 players from pitt and penn state picked an not a one worth a damn. where are you getting this stuff? 1. each of the last TWO coaches and their staffs were starting out pinching PENNIES!! because they gave them a raise that was comparable to the rest of the nfl after their first meager coaching terms were nearly up is moot. in fact the only REAL coaching money deal WAS done by mikey when he ponied up to pay the best prospect out there in wanny!! 2. paying for scouts? we went through this last time we argued about this. have you since gathered a single fact as to how much we pay them compared to the rest of the league? also see below. 3. the training facility ALSO was put into effect by mikey in the 90's. that's around 10 years ago. 4. the stadium maybe? uhhh no. paid for by tax payers. 5. player salaries? and yet again, player salaries are paid for by the salary cap allowances. you CAN'T keep drafting the same position players every year in the same draft slots no matter how you look at it. if you have a big need ok draft one higher and balance the rest of the team out by getting what you need on both sides of the ball. offensive linemen have been a need since angie CAME here!! yet he refuses to draft a guard higher than the the 5th round (almost all are in the 6th or 7th round) with the exception of metcalf who is crap. not cheap? does your personnel usually leave for less money? hmmmmmm... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8060801681.html When Bobby DePaul, who was a coach in Joe Gibbs's first stint with the Redskins, reported to Chicago, he was given a limited budget, and limited time, to locate two assistants. That night he woke from his sleep, grabbed a nearby notepad and scribbled two words: Morocco Brown. Morocco Brown had been assistant director of pro personnel for the Chicago Bears since 2001, earning a reputation as a bright prospect, league sources said, and was someone the franchise did not want to lose. The Bears won two division titles and reached a Super Bowl with Brown in the front office; he was assigned 11 teams to scout as well as the Arena League. well, let's look at our personnel compared to some other teams in the nfl: BEARS – 6 college area scouts; 1 director of college scouting; 2 pro scouts; 1 director of pro scouting Jerry Angelo GM DePaul, Bobby - Director of Pro Personnel Dennard Wilson - pro scout Bears hire former Maryland DB Wilson - pro scout Gabriel, Greg - Director of College Scouting Rex Hogan – in the East, scouting area that includes North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and New York Chris Ballard in the Southwest Marty Barrett in the West Ted Monago in the Rockies and Plains Jeff Shiver in the Midwest Mark Sadowski in the Southeast COLTS – 6 area scouts; 2 regional scouts; 2 scouting assistants; 1 pro scout; 1 director of pro player personel; 1 director of player personel with 1 assistant; 1 sr. player personnel consultant; 1 player development admin. ever wonder why they draft well? Tom Telesco ......................Director of Player Personnel Dom Anile ................Sr. Consultant to Player Personnel Clyde Powers ..............Director of Pro Player Personnel David Caldwell ......................Western Regional Scout Todd Vasvari ............................Eastern Regional Scout Bob Ferguson ....Special Asst. to the Dir. of Player Personnel John Becker ..............................................Area Scout Ryan Cavanaugh ......................................Area Scout Mark Ellenz ..............................................Area Scout Bob Guarini..............................................Area Scout Byron Lusby ..............................................Area Scout Matt Terpening ..........................................Area Scout Kevin Rogers ..............................................Pro Scout J.W. Jordan ..................Salary Cap/Personnel Analyst Stefani Paul ..............Player Development Administrator Jamie Moore ..................................Scouting Assistant Jon Shaw ........................................Scouting Assistant Debbie Finn ......Asst. to the Director of Player Personnel RAMS - 7 scouts; 1 scouting assistant; 1 director/scouting admin; 1 vp player personel; 1 vp pro personnel; 1 director player personnel Tony Softli Vice President/Player Personnel Charley Armey Vice President/Pro Personnel Lawrence McCutcheon Director/Player Personnel Jack Faulkner Pro Personnel Adminstrator Debbie Pollom Director/Scouting Administration Dave Boller Scout Cary Conklin Scout Dick Daniels Scout Luke Driscoll Scout Mel Foels Scout Brad Holmes Scout John Mancini Scout Brandon Schwab Scouting Assistant TITANS - 6 scouts; 1 national supervisor of college scouting; 1 eastern director of college scouting; 1 scouting coordinator; 1 scouting consultant; 1 director of pro personel; 2 pro personnel assistants Lake Dawson Director of Pro Personnel C.O. Brocato National Supervisor of College Scouting Mike Ackerley Eastern Director of College Scouting Blake Beddingfield Scouting Coordinator Ray Biggs College Scout Johnny Meads College Scout Phil Neri College Scout Cole Proctor College Scout Richard Shelton College Scout Marvin Sunderland College Scout Jon Salge Pro Personnel Assistant Brandon Taylor Pro Personnel Assistant Bo Bolinger Scouting Consultant BUCS - 5 scouts; 1 national football scout; 1 director of college scouting; 1 director of football operations; 1 senior assistant; 2 pro scouts; 1 director of pro personnel; 1 senior consultant; 1 personnel consultant; 1 personnel executive Mark Arteaga Director of Football Operations Kevin Demoff Senior Assistant Mark Dominik Director of Pro Personnel Chet Franklin Senior Consultant Jim Gruden Personnel Consultant Byron Kiefer National Football Scout Shelton Quarles Pro Scout Justin Sheridan Pro Scout Dennis Hickey Director of College Scouting Tom Throckmorton College Scout Dominic Green College Scout Frank Dorazio College Scout Seth Turner College Scout Reggie Cobb College Scout Doug Williams Personnel Executive BILLS - 6 college scouts; 1 coordinator of college scouting; 1 vp assistant director of college scouting; 2 scout emeritus; 1 pro personnel coordinator; 1 blesto scout; 1 pro personnel analyst; 1 scouting assistant Tom Modrak Vice President of College Scouting Linda Bogdan Vice President/Assistant Director of College Scouting Doug Majeski Coordinator of College Scouting Brad Forsyth College Scout Joe Haering College Scout Shawn Heinlen College Scout Dave W. Smith College Scout Brian Fisher College Scout Tom Roth College Scout Bob Ryan Scout Emeritus Dave G. Smith Scout Emeritus Rob Hanrahan Pro Personnel Coordinator Matt Hand BLESTO Scout Kevin Meganck Pro Personnel Analyst Jacky Kosmowski Scouting Assistant GIANTS - 4 executive scouts; 5 scouts; 1 director of college scouting; 1 scout emeritus; 1 blesto scout; 1 director of pro personnel; 3 assistant of pro personnel; 1 football operations coordinator; 1 assistant gm Kevin Abrams Assistant General Manager David Gettleman Director of Pro Personnel Marc Ross Director of College Scouting Jerry Shay Executive Scout Ken Sternfeld Assistant Director of Pro Personnel Joe Collins Executive Scout Jeremiah Davis Executive Scout Steve Verderosa Executive Scout Steve Devine Scout Donnie Etheridge Scout Ryan Jones Scout Steve Malin Scout Chris Pettit Scout Chris Watts BLESTO Scout Jeremy Breit Pro Personnel Assistant Matt Shauger Pro Personnel Assistant Raymond J. Walsh, Jr. Director of Research and Development Matt Harriss Football Operations Coordinator Harry Hulmes Scout Emeritus STEELERS - 5 scouts (includes 1 dual role college/pro scout) 1 college scouting coordinator; 1 blesto scout; 1 college personnel; 1 player personnel; 1 director of football operations Kevin Colbert, Director of Football Operations Doug Whaley, Pro Personnel Coordinator Ron Hughes, College Scouting Coordinator Joe Greene, Special Assistant Mark Gorscak, College Scout Phil Kreidler, Pro/College Scout Kelvin Fisher, College Scout Bruce McNorton, College Scout Dan Rooney, College Scout Dave Petett , Blesto Scout Bill Nunn, College Personnel Luke Palko, Player Personnel Intern BROWNS - 9 scouts; 1 player personnel assistant college scout; 1 director player development; 1 director pro personnel Zac Bocian College Scout Jake Hallum Senior Scout Jim Jauch Associate Director, Pro Personnel Daniel Jeremiah National Scout Kevin Kelly College Scout, Midwest Richard Long College Scout, East Robert Morris College Scout, Southwest Chisom Opara College Scout, Southeast Pat Roberts National Scout Bobby Vega College Scout Bob Welton College Scout, West Football Support Staff Jerry Butler Director, Player Development Donovan Beidelschies Player Personnel Assistant/College Scout PACKERS - 7 scouts; 1 director of college scouting; 1 assistant director of college scouting; 1 college scouting coordinator; 2 directors of football operations; 2 pro personnel directors * John Dorsey, Director of College Scouting * Reggie McKenzie, Director - Football Operations * John Schneider, Director - Football Operations * Shaun Herock, Assistant Director of College Scouting (Midwest) * Lee Gissendaner, College Scout (East Coast) * Brian Gutekunst, College Scout (Southeast) * Alonzo Highsmith, College Scout (Southwest) * Lenny McGill, College Scout (Central Plains) * Sam Seale, College Scout (West Coast) * Jon-Eric Sullivan, College Scout (mid-South) * Richmond Williams, College Scout (National Football Scouting) * Tim Terry, Assistant Director of Pro Personnel * Eliot Wolf, Assistant Director of Pro Personnel * Danny Mock, College Scouting Coordinator * Autumn Thomas-Beenenga, Pro Personnel Coordinator SAINTS - 6 scouts; 1 scouting assistant; 1 combine scout; 1 college scouting coordinator; 1 director of college scouting; 2 pro scouts; 1 director of pro scouting Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator Terry Fontenot Pro Scout Ryan Powell Pro Scout David Hinson Area Scout Dwaune Jones Area Scout Josh Lucas Area Scout Jim Monos Area Scout Barrett Wiley Area Scout Terry Wooden Area Scout Mike Siani Combine Scout Joey Laine Scouting Assistant LIONS - 2004 - 5 scouts; 1 blesto scout; 1 college scouting coordinator; 1 director of college scouting; 1 pro and advanced scout; 1 director of pro personnel; 1 assistant of pro personnel; 1 personnel assistant Sheldon White director of pro personnel Scott McEwen director of college scouting Charlie Sanders assistant director of pro personnel Russ Bolinger college scouting coordinator Dennis Murphy pro personnel and advance scout Chad Henry personnel scout Lance Newmark personnel scout Bob Beers personnel scout Silas McKinnie personnel scout Dave Uyrus personnel scout Dennis Gentry BLESTO personnel scout. Jo Ann Lendenpro-personnel assistant CHIEFS - 6 scouts; 1 regional scout/scouting coordinator; 1 director of college scouting Chuck Cook Director of College Scouting Bruce Lemmerman Regional Scout/Scouting Coordinator Terry Delp Scout Cornell Gowdy Scout Mike Hagen Scout Matt Littlefield Scout Greg Olejack Scout Willie Davis Scout Rosalind Ward Administrative Assistant to the Vice President of Player Personnel JAGS - 7 scouts; 1 vp player personnel; 1 executive director college and pro personnel; 1 scouting assistant college/pro personnel; 1 blesto scout; 1 director pro personnel; 1 assistant pro personnel (assists in college player evaluation) James Harris Vice President of Player Personnel - is responsible for all player acquisitions, including the annual college draft, free agency, undrafted player signings and the scouting and signing of players from other professional leagues. Gene Smith Executive Director, College and Pro Personnel Louis Clark Assistant Director, Pro Personnel - assists in college player evaluation. Larry Wright Assistant Director, Pro Personnel Terry McDonough National Scout Tim Mingey Executive Scout Art Perkins Executive Scout Andy Dengler Executive Scout Chris Driggers Regional Scout Marty Miller Regional Scout Chris Prescott Regional Scout Jason DesJarlais BLESTO scout Jake Peetz Scouting Assistant, College/Pro Personnel. BENGLES - 3 scouts; 1 scouting consultant; 1 director of player personnel; 1 personnel assistant; 1 director of football ops Jim Lippincott Director of Football Operations Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel Greg Seamon scout Earl Biederman Scout John Cooper Scout Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants Debbie LaRocco Personnel Assistant

mikey may not phoning in the picks but as i have stated in the past: if management is too cheap or too stupid to hire, not only better, but more scouts then it falls on them along with the rest. example... if the scouts we now employ are better at finding defensive players then don't you think we should add some more on the offensive side that can evaluate talent? could ONE of angies many problems be that he is not only looking at players talent wise but how much he thinks he can sign them for? this could be a major problem if he keeps drafting damaged goods or small school talent because he thinks his cap figure duties outweigh choosing the best players. another approach to this issue is if you draft a major number of players at the same positions, as he does, year after year aren't you bound to have a better chance at finding good players? the problem is you ignore the rest of the teams needs in doing so. another indication relating to this statement... how many safeties have we drafted since angie took over? how many are considered starters? how many linebackers have we drafted? DT's? etc.

great point about wasting a high priced free agent by running out his time in the nfl in the wrong position. these are the kind of gm gaffs that hurt your franchise for multiple years.

i'm not sure i go along with this train of thought. peterson is a very good special teams player who is always in the mix on tackles in coverages. as a 3rd down back he is adequate and can get the job done one in that slot is expected to do. the problem (thanks angie) is wolfe. now we have 2 third down type backs. the question is which gives you the most bang for the buck? peterson has proved his worth year after year. he doesn't cost much and is a major locker room plus. another question is how many hits can we keep putting on our special teams coach? we keep slaughtering his squad and expecting him to put the same quality back on the field each year. his saving grace is that angelo keeps drafting ST players instead of starters and acquires ST free agents on top of that. that said it would be a major loss on ST's for peterson to be gone.

yes it is true we have too many holes to fill in one draft. as i see it, that has been angies biggest problems. you have to have a clue on not only who to draft, but WHEN. he drafts the same position players (defense) on the first day of the draft year after year and ignores the obvious shortcomings on offense until the situation is beyond critical. at this point it's too late unless you give up a season or two to give rookies a chance to get up to speed in the nfl or are forced to spend top dollar for free agents and short term fixes. 2004 - LT - q. mitchell - who for X's sake replaced gandy at LT. need i say more? LG - r. brown (32 years old) with metcalf, a third round pick by angie who seems to want to force this bum into the lineup to save face, as depth who having been in the nfl for 2 previous years was atrocious by ANY standard when forced to play. this is WHY we got a 32 year old free agent reuben brown in the first place! RG - s. edwards (an undrafted player?) with r. tucker (always injured) and m. gandy (who was a complete bust at LT) for depth RT - tait in 2004 not a single player has played next to each other on the entire OL. in 2003 we dumped a good RG in villarrial and replaced him with a walk on in edwards who was playing LG. we thought so much of metcalf filling in at LG we brought in aging free agent r. brown to play LG. we dumped a FA experiment in a. gibson at RT and angie buys another RT in 2004 at a huge price in tait. tait in his prime was a good move at RT but was wasted by lack of talent surrounding him and having to move him to LT in 2005 which WASN'T his strong point. so you ask, what does all this tell you? like maybe NOW is the time to draft some offensive linemen for our future starters at guard and tackle? hmmmm......... 2005 - LT - we move tait from his all-pro position at RT to have him play average at LT. LG - we start r. brown, 33 years old, and back him up with garza another questionable FA at LG who has knee problems. RG - we demote edwards at RG and replace him with metcalf who has never done anything to show he belongs in the nfl. now edwards is our back-up RT and RG. RT - we fill an all-pro RT's position with an aging RT, at the end of his string, in f. miller. we also have a still injured columbo who we then cut or trade to dallas. we pick up an average back-up swing tackle in st. clair. we did not drafted a single offensive lineman in 2004 to replace... A. an aging r. brown. or for that matter draft any STARTER quality depth or future starter replacements at guard on EITHER side. B. a left tackle in q. mitchell who, to say the least, was BAD!! on top of that, the ONLY offensive linemen that have played next to each other in the 2005 season are kreutz and r. brown. so much for continuity. again, what does all this tell you? one of the most important aspects of your franchise needs some serious work by drafting OL for not only your future but your present. 2006 - LT - tait remains at LT backed up by st. clair LG - r. brown is still plugging away at 34 years old. RG - garza replaces a totally inept metcalf. we also cut oft injured tucker AND edwards depleting our depth even more. RT - 33 year old f. miller is now our starting RT for 2 years in a row. he is playing average at best and is declining in talent. our backup is st. clair. we did not drafted a single offensive lineman in 2005 to replace... A. our LT in tait so we could move him back to his original position. B. an aging LG in r. brown or a replacement/starter for metcalf or garza at RG. C. a RT to replace an aging miller in a year or two IF you are dumb enough to want to keep a high priced tait out of his best position. 2007 - LT - tait continues to play average and out of position. LG - r. brown at 35 is showing his age AND is injured. RG - garza starts again for the 2nd year in a row and plays average at best. RT - a 34 year old miller is playing like someone 84. in the 2006 draft, with our offensive line aging fast, we drafted 1 offensive lineman in the 6th round who didn't even make the roster. how stupid is that? setting new records for BAD offense for a club known for bad offenses throughout the last 4 decades says it all. that we don't have a single backup player or future starting GUARD this coaching staff feels is better than a one armed 35 year old player is mindboggling. the state this club that i am commenting on is not through 20/20 hindsight but by logical deduction that anyone with even a drop of nfl insight could plainly see by just looking at our roster. it is only common sense that you have to draft players a year of two in advance of a critical situation coming due or suffer the consequences such as we did and DO. 2008 - we finally draft highly, LT, a dire need on the OL but AGAIN fail to have the intelligence and forsight to draft a guard or another tackle before the 7th round. so that puts us yet again at a disadvantage NEXT season + not to mention this one. if you want quality guards you draft them in rounds 3-5 (even the 2nd) until you get your starters. then once set, you draft their replacements. if you want quality players in the most important position in your offense, next to qb, you have to plan in advance how to get it done within the scope and limitations of the nfl salary cap. this is only possible, long term, through the draft. why now and not later.... rookie linemen can come in and play reasonably well if surrounded by good veteran talent but still need that extra year to gain the experience to work as a cohesive unit and understand the nuances of nfl defenses. when i stated in my previous post there was a 2-3 year lag i was specifically talking about the OL and QB positions and not the rb or wr positions you commented on. these OL positions NEED this break in time to become aquainted with the complexity and the speed of the nfl. these are the guys that can make or break your franchise by keeping your #1 player, the QB, clean and off the IR. one only has to look back at our drafts to realize how pathetic our gm has done. it's his job to find the talent not only on the field but finding personel to teach/coach them to be better players (specifically qb). that is his main job in my opinion. it's not enough by a long shot that he works our cap figures well. that is what you hire the bean counters like phillips for to negotiate contracts with the gm's input. so in conclusion..... in a good franchise where the owners really understand football our gm would be walking on thin, thin, thin, ice and headed for deep water. here they give him extensions. so until we get someone who not only can judge and draft offensive talent but hire coaches and trainers to COACH this talent we do draft we are going nowhere fast with only a short term anommaly as our only hope.

here is the problem with that scenario: besides the possible age and/or injury to existing key players over this rebuilding period, we still did not draft enough players to fill the positions on offense that have held us back and CAUSED this rebuilding process. when you rebuild you need to develop prospective starting players to replace the existing problems. each of our problem positions takes time to develop and most would agree that a 2-3 year LAG may not even be enough time to develop them EVEN if we had them!! 1. we still have absolutely no depth at guard and in fact we don't even have a real starting guard on this roster with the 'possible' exception of garza. metcalf is a wasted roster spot, beekman can't even replace a one armed guard and is not even considered in the mix to replace that drone metcalf. the rumors have it he is to replace kruetz in the future at center but if he can't even sub as guard how good is he really at replacing a pro bowl player at the center position? that leaves who, that wasn't passed over for st. clair last season at that position? 2. all of our tackles, with the exception of the rookie, are aging. by the time this rebuilding process is over they will have a short shelf life themselves and will need to be replaced. are we again going to rebuild after this rebuilding process? again, a 2-3 year lag for a replacement tackle to get up to speed in the nfl even IF he has talent. which also brings into question the lack continuity of your offensive line playing together. if we fail to draft these type players, that means that we have to spend BIG dollars for free agents at a position that should be easy to fill in the draft and ignore or go cheap on other skill position players we may need in free agency like receivers and running backs (not to mention players on the defensive side of the ball). this is the reality of angies failure to draft offensive linemen over the last SIX YEARS!! 3. at qb we are existing on a wing and a prayer. both qb's will be free agents or gone when this rebuilding process is over. if both fail to become even reasonably effective average qb's then what? we passed on the possibility to draft a replacement this season yet AGAIN. so add another 2-3 year LAG period to this process even if we can find a quality player to draft NEXT year. the only other option is we can acquire a free agent ham and egger to do the same thing we have done for 40 years. again this position is just an afterthought for angelo who still roams the plains with dinosaurs and believes defense wins championships.

put me on your list... i'm in

if i were benson's lawyer here is something else i would be interested in: what did they do with benson's boat while they took him to shore? did they tow it in? did they put an officer on board to operate benson's boat to shore? did they leave the boat adrift in the lake? who operated it when benson was taken ashore? was he/she given a sobriety test before the took over? if not how dumb is that? if they left the occupants to their own means in the middle of the lake is that not a safety violation on their (officers) part? did this THEN discriminate against benson if they did by singling him out from the rest?

this whole situation and the facts keep changing. at first and what was posted was that his boat was at anchor. then someone said he was pulled over while operating the boat. now you say he was free drifting and not anchored. there is a HUGE difference as to probable cause depending upon which scenario is correct. 1. if he was pulled over while operating the vessel and alcohol was evident on the boat (or not) they 'could' ask for a sobriety test of him specifically if they suspected he 'could' be intoxicated. they usually wouldn't if he wasn't operating his boat erratically and appeared not to be intoxicated while speaking with him and checking for safety equipment. if this is the case they could do so without jeopardy as long as they did this within the limit of the law. 2. if he was ANCHORED outside of a navigational channel and not in a restricted zone with the vessels engine turned off, they had no cause what-so-ever to ask him for a sobriety test that included a BWI. no ifs ands or buts, they were wrong. 3. if he was drifting free of an anchor and not beached then there is a real possibility that he was subject to testing and the boat nazi's did have a right to test him for sobriety in most instances and especially if he stated he was the operator at the time. the assumption if you are drifting free is that you would have to operate the vessel if it became a navigational hazzard by drifting into an area where he would eventually have to move the vessel to a different location for safeties sake due to wind, current, or tides. this 'could' be a gray area depending upon the circumstances at the time. 4. having said that even if he were subject to sobriety testing in situations 1 and 3 ONLY they would have to have probable cause to suspect he was intoxicated to bring him to shore for further testing (which is the correct thing to do on water) anyway. if these 'officers' have the field sobriety testing equipment on board they should have had him blow into it (or ask him to) to confirm any suspicions if he failed any verbal or preliminary physical tests. if benson was asked to leave his vessel and return to shore on the officers boat it would be a legal requirement for him to wear a life vest in the process so there is no wrong doing in that aspect and benson would have to comply to that request. all of this said it is still possible that he was harassed and asked to do unesessary testing when/if he passed the preliminary tests they asked him to perform. in other words if they didn't find something wrong on the water, why bring him to shore for further testing if not just to dog him?

i agree with you. another point to make is most if not all of this 'hazing' is put into motion by the fans. in green bay their were fire alarms pulled at the hotels in the middle of the night to deprive bear players of sleep etc. also on another posters comments that hookers were sent to a hotel room there is still the choice of the player to refuse and go to bed alone. i'd like also to comment on the scouring the rooms for left over game plans on paper is one thing. this would be negligence on the team/players part and it's fair game. but if the host team were to bug a room with audio and video to spy on their opponents or pay a player to leave this information laying around this is another story altogether. even if the team were aware of a private person doing this and accepting that information to me that's illegal also.

this is really bad, bad news. metcalf has shown nothing in the entire time he has been in chicago. why he even is on this team is mindboggling. this seriously will not help our rookie left tackle playing next to a semi-pro scrub.

do you even know what you are talking about? do you even know what the definition of "intervene" IS?? in·ter·vene - to become a third party to a legal proceeding begun by others for the protection of an alleged interest first: what 'legal' proceeding are they becoming a part of? i must have missed the news flash that the NFL can practice and enforce U.S. criminal law. second: in the U.S. they have investigations to DETERMINE if a law or statute has been broken. ever heard of a grand jury? third: how can you determine if there has or has not been a criminal offense if you don't QUESTION the parties involved either under oath of congress or a grand jury if you have a 'reasonable' suspicion that a crime has been committed or at the very least, view the physical evidence as presented (oh thats right, it was destroyed)? fourth: are you roger GOoDell? if not where are you getting this conclusive evidence that no federal laws were broken? a gut feeling on your part? it's true just because you say so? a qui ji board? transmissions from deep space? all of the above? if not then POST your conclusive evidence and it's sources for us to read. fifth: you say i won't answer what laws were broken? i'm not clairvoyant as you appear to be. to determine what, if ANY, laws were violated i (and i assume congress also) would have to ASK QUESTIONS to determine that. what violations 'could' there be? off the top of my head there is a real possibility that the EEA laws were violated which involves corporate espionage statutes. could there be gambling violations or racketeering laws at risk? who could possibly know without asking questions? like was anyone in the franchise or their family using information on this to place bets? was anyone that they told or knew of aware of it and did they place any bets? could there be a multitude of others? YES!!!!! here is a scenario for you... what if the cameraman or someone in the system evaluating this information was part of or friends with the gambino crime family in new york? would that be enough for you to ask questions? sixth: show me ANYWHERE i was lying in any of my posts. show me ANYWHERE what i posted is BS. don't just yap about it, PROVE IT!!!! can't? hmmmmm... now what does that make YOU?

if you don't get the comparrison to enron i sure won't waste any more time trying to explain it to you. ask your parents. are you using cryptology on this post? if so post the key so i can follow your train of thought. sorry, but you lost something in the translation from crayon to keyboard.