Week 13 Official Game Thread (ARZ at CHI) The Bears are who we thought they were Bowl

[Alaskan Grizzly]

2 hours ago, ChileBear said:

Did Tevon Jenkens play today?

I didn’t see him.  Saw Irvin and Adams play.  Adams dropped a pass that would’ve been a nice 1st down gain.  Irvin was ‘meh’.  

[Alaskan Grizzly]

On 12/5/2021 at 2:17 PM, ChileBear said:

Did Tevon Jenkens play today?

I stand corrected. Apparently he was in for two special team plays.  
 

https://www.bleachernation.com/bears/2021/12/06/sounds-like-matt-nagy-is-putting-winning-ahead-of-critical-development-because-the-bears-arent-mathematically-eliminated-yet/?fbclid=IwAR0HUav-YXliGwVuVtocTp8AZ6-DcYIeMgE49AucvhludOszfDRS7-M-pro

[adam]

16 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I stand corrected. Apparently he was in for two special team plays.  
 

https://www.bleachernation.com/bears/2021/12/06/sounds-like-matt-nagy-is-putting-winning-ahead-of-critical-development-because-the-bears-arent-mathematically-eliminated-yet/?fbclid=IwAR0HUav-YXliGwVuVtocTp8AZ6-DcYIeMgE49AucvhludOszfDRS7-M-pro

It's a start. I would put him in on all special teams plays to get some reps. Then ease him in the final 4-5 games where he is playing all the snaps by Week 18. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 minutes ago, adam said:

It's a start. I would put him in on all special teams plays to get some reps. Then ease him in the final 4-5 games where he is playing all the snaps by Week 18. 

Some news on those of you who do the ‘all-22’ thing.  Prior to this last weekend he was getting praise for playing against the likes of TJ Watt and Nick Bosa back to back with only one sack allowed.  Lookin good so far.  
 

 

[BearFan2000]

If Jenkins is able to work his way into more reps and can become the player we hoped when we took him, and Borom pans out as well, this could be looked back at as a key draft for the future of the team.  Whether or not Pace hangs on or gets chopped with Naggy, there are for sure some pieces to build on that should be enticing to a potential HC candidate and even coordinators.  While Pace trades up more than I'd like, I can't deny his drafts especially the last couple years or so have had some nice finds.  He'll never shake the move to give up a ton to move up 1 spot to take Mitch when in all likelihood he'd have been there at 3.  That will probably be the move that defines him if he's indeed released this offseason.  

Whoever is making the moves beyond this season and whoever we get to coach has some good potential, just need to clean up the dead weight and fine tune the roster.  It's an opportunity that should be very attractive since the team doesn't need a full ground up rebuild.  

[adam]

3 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Some news on those of you who do the ‘all-22’ thing.  Prior to this last weekend he was getting praise for playing against the likes of TJ Watt and Nick Bosa back to back with only one sack allowed.  Lookin good so far.  
 

 

Borom may be the steal of the draft. If Jenkins can lock down the left side, with Borom on the right, Fields and Herbert? Their progress may save Pace's job, hitting on 4 draft picks. Get a new Center and WR1 and CB2 in the draft. Sign a WR3 and S in FA, and run this back next year with Fields, Monty, Herbert, Kmet, Mooney and a new WR1 and WR3, with Jenkins, Whitehair, New Center, Daniels, and Borom. I would also look to upgrade TE with a true pass-catching TE. Kmet has hands of stone.

Then on defense, you add a true CB2 and SS and the defense roll it back with Mack, Quinn, Goldman, Smith, Trevathan, Jackson, Johnson, a new CB2 and new SS. The secondary needs an overhaul for sure. 

[adam]

Thru this week, the Bears are now 26th in DVOA, 26th on Offense and 18th on Defense. That is exactly how they look. They have had the 9th hardest schedule and their remaining schedule is the 10th hardest. 

Their remaining games are against GB (10th), MIN x2 (11th), SEA (17th), and NYG (24th) in terms of DVOA. The Bears should be underdogs in every game except the NYG game, where it may be even. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

4 hours ago, adam said:

Get a new Center and WR1 and CB2 in the draft.

Still struggling with this one, especially in the draft. Some weeks ago I shared a tape from Kreutz about his support for Mustipher.  Below is a newer article (from last month) where Kreutz is still a strong supporter but has throttled back his undying support.  He seems to think Sam is serviceable and the Bears would be better suited in keeping him for at least one more year; if not as a backup.  Instead of drafting if the Bears can find a good FA pickup like the Bucs did with Jensen in 2018 or Atlanta then SF did with Alex Mack then maybe that’s the better route?  I agree positions like WR, CB and safety are more of need and the draft picks are slim going into next year.

https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-bears/olin-kreutz-fires-back-at-the-sam-mustipher-haters/

[AZ54]

I agree there are a lot of positives to our roster.  We should have won the game against the Cardinals and likely would have if not for the 4 turnovers.  We might have won even with 2 turnovers.  I've watched a few Cards games this season and I know it sounds crazy but there's just a few players between their record and ours.  QB is a big piece of it of course but I think Fields can improve in his 2nd season and if you want to compare 3rd season as Murray has.  Although I'm not a big fan of Kyler Murray as I think he's a QB you can win with.  The Cards have done a great job putting good players around him.   After watching MNF (both Josh Allen and Mac Jones) I'm even more optimistic for Fields' future.   

I agree with Adams assessment on the D as well.  We have good players on every level of the defense except safety which should be the easiest to fix.  CB = Johnson, ILB Smith, OLB Quinn and Mack.   Goldman is rounding back into form and his backup Tonga has shown the ability to make some big plays in a backup role.  I'm not sure Tonga will ever have the endurance to be a starter.   Fix CB2, and both safety positions.  

Say what you will about the offense we can run behind this Oline with either Montgomery or Herbert.  That should only get better with Jenkins next year.  

I can't see how any aspiring HC candidate would not look at this as a great opportunity.   Now that could all depend on Pace being here vs. another GM but in his defense Pace has largely given Nagy the players he said he needed.  Patterson, Cohen, and I believe Nagy was a driving force behind the trade up for Anthony Miller and other acquisitions like Trey Burton.  We can debate the merits of each but for a HC looking for a GM who will partner with him on acquiring players he wants Pace has shown he'll do that.  

https://beargoggleson.com/2021/05/16/chicago-bears-draft-free-agency-building-matt-nagy/2/

The team’s 2018 offseason has been nothing short of spectacular, with the offense picking up Chiefs offensive coordinator Matt Nagy as the head coach, going out and getting Allen Robinson, Taylor Gabriel and Trey Burton in free agency, and hauling it draft picks like Roquan Smith, James Daniels, and Anthony Miller.

[adam]

13 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Still struggling with this one, especially in the draft. Some weeks ago I shared a tape from Kreutz about his support for Mustipher.  Below is a newer article (from last month) where Kreutz is still a strong supporter but has throttled back his undying support.  He seems to think Sam is serviceable and the Bears would be better suited in keeping him for at least one more year; if not as a backup.  Instead of drafting if the Bears can find a good FA pickup like the Bucs did with Jensen in 2018 or Atlanta then SF did with Alex Mack then maybe that’s the better route?  I agree positions like WR, CB and safety are more of need and the draft picks are slim going into next year.

https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-bears/olin-kreutz-fires-back-at-the-sam-mustipher-haters/

I know, I read that, but I just don't see it on the tape. Olin keeps saying "who do you replace him with". Mustipher trains with Olin, so he is too close to the situation to properly evaluate. I constantly see Mustipher getting pushed back into the backfield on runs and pass plays. Most runs up the middle are disrupted by his ass. The QBs have to avoid Mustipher's backside more than any defender. Then you have the snaps into his crotch. He must have short arms and has a hard time wiping because he hits himself with the ball once or twice a game. 

The assessment reminds me of what McCaskey said about the team last offseason. He named all the things wrong with the team, then said outside of those, we have a great team, lol.

So outside of being pushed back into the backfield on every play, fumbling the snap a few times a game, Mustipher is a great Center. 

[adam]

12 hours ago, AZ54 said:

I agree there are a lot of positives to our roster.  We should have won the game against the Cardinals and likely would have if not for the 4 turnovers.  We might have won even with 2 turnovers.  I've watched a few Cards games this season and I know it sounds crazy but there's just a few players between their record and ours.  QB is a big piece of it of course but I think Fields can improve in his 2nd season and if you want to compare 3rd season as Murray has.  Although I'm not a big fan of Kyler Murray as I think he's a QB you can win with.  The Cards have done a great job putting good players around him.   After watching MNF (both Josh Allen and Mac Jones) I'm even more optimistic for Fields' future.   

I agree with Adams assessment on the D as well.  We have good players on every level of the defense except safety which should be the easiest to fix.  CB = Johnson, ILB Smith, OLB Quinn and Mack.   Goldman is rounding back into form and his backup Tonga has shown the ability to make some big plays in a backup role.  I'm not sure Tonga will ever have the endurance to be a starter.   Fix CB2, and both safety positions.  

Say what you will about the offense we can run behind this Oline with either Montgomery or Herbert.  That should only get better with Jenkins next year.  

I can't see how any aspiring HC candidate would not look at this as a great opportunity.   Now that could all depend on Pace being here vs. another GM but in his defense Pace has largely given Nagy the players he said he needed.  Patterson, Cohen, and I believe Nagy was a driving force behind the trade up for Anthony Miller and other acquisitions like Trey Burton.  We can debate the merits of each but for a HC looking for a GM who will partner with him on acquiring players he wants Pace has shown he'll do that.  

https://beargoggleson.com/2021/05/16/chicago-bears-draft-free-agency-building-matt-nagy/2/

The team’s 2018 offseason has been nothing short of spectacular, with the offense picking up Chiefs offensive coordinator Matt Nagy as the head coach, going out and getting Allen Robinson, Taylor Gabriel and Trey Burton in free agency, and hauling it draft picks like Roquan Smith, James Daniels, and Anthony Miller.

Everyone points to the solid young core the team has. So if that is the case, Pace is doing his job and most of the issues are on coaching. I am torn on Pace because you have to give him credit on moves he gets right but also blame on the ones he gets wrong. It is crazy to think the Bears had only 1x 1st, no 3rd or 4th Round picks the last two years and ended up with Fields, Jenkins, Kmet, Johnson, Gipson, Borom, Vildor, and Mooney in the first 5 rounds. Herbert was a 6th Rounder! So if you count Herbert, out of the 9 first picks in the last two years, Pace got 8 major contributors. Kmet probably drafted too high, but got steals in Borom (5th), Mooney (5th), and Herbert (6th) to compensate for the reach on Kmet. Johnson and Jenkins in the 2nd were also seen as great value picks.

The worst picks recently have been Ridley (4th), Miller (2nd), Iyiegbuniwe (4th), and Shaheen (2nd). Nichols was a 5th, Jackson and Cohen in the 4th, and even going way back Amos and Howard were 5th Rounders. Pace should only be allowed to pick in the 5th round. Even Jordan Morgan, who is no longer on the team ended up being a decent Guard from the 5th. So Vildor is his worst 5th Round pick, and he should be a backup CB, not a starter anyway. Really impressive track record in the 5th. 

Pace also should not be allowed to draft WRs, outside of Mooney, he has picked Newsome, Ridley, Miller, Wims, Braverman, and White. That is horrendous. The guys he passed on for those dudes are insane. Especially Miller and White. 

I feel like the problem with this team is mainly coaching and scheme. Nagy's system is Pop Warner level crap. It has been dissected ad nauseam. Hitch and Stick Routes, 8 yards deep for all receivers, rinse and repeat. They need to clean house with the coaching staff, that includes Desai. That way players like Jackson will be held accountable for their lack of production. I don't care what your contract is, if you play like crap, you are riding pine. 

On coaching, it pains me to see Brandon Staley in LA. They could've promoted him within but instead let him go to the Rams in 2020. If they did promote him, he could've slid into the HC position after Nagy.

[AZ54]

16 hours ago, adam said:

I feel like the problem with this team is mainly coaching and scheme. Nagy's system is Pop Warner level crap. It has been dissected ad nauseam. Hitch and Stick Routes, 8 yards deep for all receivers, rinse and repeat. They need to clean house with the coaching staff, that includes Desai. That way players like Jackson will be held accountable for their lack of production. I don't care what your contract is, if you play like crap, you are riding pine. 

 

I'm not a coach but sometimes i watch collectively the routes our WRs run and it's pretty boring stuff.  Other times it looks like something that would make a defense think a bit.  We used to blame this on Mitch Trubisky's limitations.  I'm still staying with the fact Santa's Sleigh was the peak of Nagy's offense.  At least since Lazor and Castillo showed up and got more involved in calling plays our running game improved.    Castillo is the one coach I would like to see stay. 

He won't likely survive but I like Desai too and think he's got a bright future years down the road.  He's made mistakes as a first time DC for sure but I'd like to see what he can do with a few more pieces in the secondary.  

[adam]

11 hours ago, AZ54 said:

I'm not a coach but sometimes i watch collectively the routes our WRs run and it's pretty boring stuff.  Other times it looks like something that would make a defense think a bit.  We used to blame this on Mitch Trubisky's limitations.  I'm still staying with the fact Santa's Sleigh was the peak of Nagy's offense.  At least since Lazor and Castillo showed up and got more involved in calling plays our running game improved.    Castillo is the one coach I would like to see stay. 

He won't likely survive but I like Desai too and think he's got a bright future years down the road.  He's made mistakes as a first time DC for sure but I'd like to see what he can do with a few more pieces in the secondary.  

It is boring. Watch the All-22 if you have access. Nothing feeds off each other, nothing stresses or confuses the defense. Even with Mitch and when ARob was making a ton of catches. He wasn't really open and the play only worked because he was between the QB and the defender, caught the ball, and hit the ground. 

The Bears have a lot of mismatches and rarely use them. Half the time the motion telegraphs the play or leads more defenders to where the ball is going. 

They have so much speed yet they don't use it. They have mismatches at TE and RB, never used. They got rid of CPat and he is one of the best playmakers in the league. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

On 12/8/2021 at 4:59 AM, adam said:

So outside of being pushed back into the backfield on every play, fumbling the snap a few times a game, Mustipher is a great Center. 

Your basing this assessment on one game. Most of the mistakes you cite were highlighted in last weeks’ game. Just like Dalton threw four INTs last week, does not one career make.  If you believe Mustipher is as bad as you think he is then so too is Fields based on his stats and analytics as an NFL player … so far.  
 

What’s the common issue here? We all agree it’s the offense and more specifically the guy calling those plays (Nagy).  We really haven’t been able to see the true capabilities of ANY of the players on offense because of it.  ARob suddenly went from a consecutive 2 year 1,000 yard season receiver before this seasons version of him.  Graham went from 8 TDs and being a red zone threat to 2TDs and no longer producing just like that?  Even Herbert who a few weeks ago looked like an all pro in the making has nearly disappeared.  Instead we’re back to watching Montgomery bounce around and scrimp and scratch for every yard he can get.  It’s either A LOT of coincidences or something else.  

I’m not saying Musty is the long term solution at Center.  Just saying his play isn’t enough that it’s one of our the teams top priorities.  Not at drafting anyhow.  

[Bill]

On 12/8/2021 at 5:59 AM, adam said:

I know, I read that, but I just don't see it on the tape. Olin keeps saying "who do you replace him with". Mustipher trains with Olin, so he is too close to the situation to properly evaluate. I constantly see Mustipher getting pushed back into the backfield on runs and pass plays. Most runs up the middle are disrupted by his ass. The QBs have to avoid Mustipher's backside more than any defender. Then you have the snaps into his crotch. He must have short arms and has a hard time wiping because he hits himself with the ball once or twice a game. 

The assessment reminds me of what McCaskey said about the team last offseason. He named all the things wrong with the team, then said outside of those, we have a great team, lol.

So outside of being pushed back into the backfield on every play, fumbling the snap a few times a game, Mustipher is a great Center. 

I have always thought that Olin sticks up for Sam, not just because of them working with each other.  But also because love him, hate him, or anything in between the fact is he was an UDFA and how he made a starting roster in year two in the NFL.s. Even if it was the Bears.  Not going to say what Olin thinks his ceiling is, don't know.  He also talks about how the Bears running game is going.  And that most of those calls must be coming from him that makes it tick.  Again, good for an UDFA.  I happen to believe he is at best a backup and found the only team he would start for.  Time to find a real center going forward, it ain't Sam.  

[adam]

16 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Your basing this assessment on one game. Most of the mistakes you cite were highlighted in last weeks’ game. Just like Dalton threw four INTs last week, does not one career make.  If you believe Mustipher is as bad as you think he is then so too is Fields based on his stats and analytics as an NFL player … so far.  
 

What’s the common issue here? We all agree it’s the offense and more specifically the guy calling those plays (Nagy).  We really haven’t been able to see the true capabilities of ANY of the players on offense because of it.  ARob suddenly went from a consecutive 2 year 1,000 yard season receiver before this seasons version of him.  Graham went from 8 TDs and being a red zone threat to 2TDs and no longer producing just like that?  Even Herbert who a few weeks ago looked like an all pro in the making has nearly disappeared.  Instead we’re back to watching Montgomery bounce around and scrimp and scratch for every yard he can get.  It’s either A LOT of coincidences or something else.  

I’m not saying Musty is the long term solution at Center.  Just saying his play isn’t enough that it’s one of our the teams top priorities.  Not at drafting anyhow.  

AG,
I have watched a lot of tape. Mustipher gets manhandled by most interior DLinemen. To Mustipher's credit, he has played some elite opponents, but there are plays where he just falls down. Maybe if he worked on his footwork and added some strength, he could be a viable long term solution, but if we are trying to put the best 5 in front of Fields going forward, that is not Mustipher. Great story, UDFA to NFL starter, but we need more consistency out of that position.

I am sure every offensive player will improve once they are not playing in a Nagy-stained scheme. Even Mustipher. If we know Mustipher struggles with certain things, do things that limit that exposure. It is not hard. The Bears just run plays to run them. 

What I do is make a chart of all the 22 starters on offense and defense, add a few rotation pieces as key contributors, and add a few ST guys to come up with your top 30. Then you find the weakest guys of that group and target their replacements in the draft and FA. To me, Mustipher is in the bottom 5 of that top 30 if you consider positional importance to the offense (he touches the ball on every play and needs to be able to read the defense as good as the QB) and performance. WR1 and CB2 are higher than C, but I would put C in the next tier of needs with S and ILB. 

[adam]

11 hours ago, Bill said:

I have always thought that Olin sticks up for Sam, not just because of them working with each other.  But also because love him, hate him, or anything in between the fact is he was an UDFA and how he made a starting roster in year two in the NFL.s. Even if it was the Bears.  Not going to say what Olin thinks his ceiling is, don't know.  He also talks about how the Bears running game is going.  And that most of those calls must be coming from him that makes it tick.  Again, good for an UDFA.  I happen to believe he is at best a backup and found the only team he would start for.  Time to find a real center going forward, it ain't Sam.  

He does and Mustipher actually played better last year, watch the tape. I don't know if he is dealing with an injury or something, or if he was playing on pure adrenaline last year but he was stronger at the point of attack, made fewer mistakes with the snap, and didn't get blown back into the backfield as much last year. Great story and Olin trains with him, so I understand he wants to help the kid out, but if that is the case, it is clear to see what he needs to work on.