Position by position thoughts

[nfoligno]

QB - The one thing about Orton I have seen that I love is pocket presence. He simply seems to have a better feel for the pocket. When a defender is closing in on him, he moves to avoid the rush w/o taking his eyes off the field. That is a huge plus. W/ that said, his accuracy leaves much to be desired and while he has arm strength, I do not like how much of a windup he has. Reminds me of Leftwich. I like him for depth, but no more than that. This is still a huge need. I think Rex is gone. Still not sure if this will be McNabb, a rookie or what, but this is a position that must be addressed.

 

McNabb is still my top choice, if he does in fact become tradable. I do not think his market value would be extreme. Frankly, a 3rd this year and maybe a future could might get it done. Phily may not want to trade him, but there is so much talk of their looking to do so, and there has been so much talk from McNabb, that I think it is very possible.

 

RB - Not sure what we do here. Regardless what some think or want, Benson will not be cut. Especially since he lost out on most of his incentives, I believe he is now a relatively inexpensive player. I like AP, but he is not a starter, and frankly, I think is a #3 RB. Wolfe did some nice things, but I think we need an upgrade to our RB corp. I do not see Benson leaving, nor AP. So that means we either have to let Wolfe go, or we do not upgrade. While not popular, I think I would like to bring in a better #2 RB and let Wolfe go. This would also move AP back to where I think he should be, and allow him to focus on special teams, where he is great.

 

FB - Big area of need for me, and one that should not expensive, whether in FA or the draft, as FBs are 2nd day picks. I simply do not like McKie. When we made the move to him, it was due to his ability to catch the ball. He was never a great blocker. Frankly, I have not been impressed w/ his receiving, particularly what he does after the catch. What I really want is a lead blocker. I want a FB that paves the way for our RBs and is better picking up the blitz.

 

WR - I would love to see massive changes, but I wonder how much we can really do. The FA crop is weak, as is the draft. While originally against it, I now wonder if we aren't better of simply tagging Berrian. Take another year to see if he can take that next step. If not, bye bye. If he can, re-sign him. It will hurt to eat up a bunch of cap, but it is better than over-paying for him on a long term deal we may regret before long. If we keep Berrian, we can then cut Moose. Doing this saves money, which can help off-set the cost of tagging Berrian. I would then look to FA for a mid tier guy. Bryant Johnson is a WR I would love to add. I think he could be solid, but has been burried behind a pair of pro bowl WRs in Boldin and Fitz. I would also draft a WR, but not until day two. Berrian and Johnson would be the starters, w/ Hester as our slot WR, unless he continues to develop and moves up the depth chart.

 

TE - Nothing to do, expect I would make this a greater aspect of the offense. Whatever we do at WR will not be huge, and we can off-set an average group of WRs by better utilizing our two solid TEs.

 

OT - This is our first pick in the draft. Jake Long would be ideal, but w/ the two wins we finished the season w/, we have no shot at him. Clady, Baker and Oher (in that order) would be solid additions. Ideally, we draft Clady and play him at LT immediatly, moving Tait back to RT, thus upgrading two positions.

 

OG - I want Faneca. Yes, I know he isn't young, but he is not on the downhill slide either, like Miller and Brown. It will be expensive, very expensive, to sign him, but I think he would be worth it. Adding him would see multiple secondary benefits. One, if we pair him w/ a rookie LT, it should make life for that LT much easier, and help w/ the young man's development. Two, putting him on our OL could help Kreutz regain his pro bowl form. IMHO, part of why Kreutz has been playing at a lower level is due to having to do too much, or trying to do too much. On the other side, while I am not the biggest fan of Garza, we allow him to compete w/ Metcalf, Beekman (who I hope can get strong w/ an offseason strengthening program) and a rookie (3rd or 4th round)

 

DL - I would look at a DT in the 2nd day of the draft, and maybe even as high as the 3rd round w/ one of our two picks, if one falls that we love. Harris has been injury prone, and there is no guarantee we keep him after this year. I love Dusty, but he has not proven himself and also has been injury prone. The rest are nice depth, but not what I want starting necessarily.

 

DE - I would not do a thing as far as additions. I do make Brown our starter again, though Anderson would still get pleny of reps in rotation. Bazuin is coming off a red shirt year, and may provide further depth.

 

LB - I allow Briggs to walk. Yes, I saw the hits he put on players last night, and I know how good he is. At the same time, I simply believe we have too many needs to afford Briggs at the price he wants. I would add a veteran in FA, 2nd/3rd tier, so we have a veteran in the mix, and not just unproven Williams and Okwo. Also, I keep Ayenbadejo. He is not going to be cheap (for a backup LB/ special teams player) but I don't care. I read he could want $2m. I give it to him. Until our offense and defense are truly fixed, we can not afford to drop on special teams, and he is a stud special teams player.

 

CB - RMJ is gone. I actually like him, but it appears he has lost his job to McBride, and is too expensive to be 4th on our depth chart. W/ Tillman, Vasher and McBride, I think we have a solid trio. I look to the 2nd day of the draft, and lower tiers of FAs for added depth, but I do not make CB a huge need area.

 

SS - McGowan has been impressive IMHO. Payne could also be in the mix. What we do here depends on what we do at FS. I think we need to add a veteran at one spot, and draft for the others. If we add a veteran FS, then we can draft a SS in the 2nd round to compete w/ McGowan. If we draft a FS, then I think we may need to add a SS (G.Wilson?).

 

FS - I want Ken Hamlin. I wanted him last year, and Dallas signed him cheap. He has played very well, though he still should not be that expensive. D.Manning has been awful. While I believe part of it is coaching, the reality is, we need to upgrade. W/ weaker S play, we usually see Urlacher have to drop deeper, taking him away from his playmaker role. So I would like to add Hamlin in FA, and draft a SS in round two to compete w/ McGowan. This should upgrade our starting unit, as well as depth.

 

Mike Brown? I do nothing until I have upgrades in place. I am looking to upgrade our safety position, and if we can do that, I cut Mike Brown. I love the guy, and think the world of him, but I do not feel we can rely on him any longer. I also do not feel he is a backup. If we do not add both a FS and a SS (draft and FA), then we may have to keep Brown. I do not cut him w/o first upgrading, but as soon as we do, I let Brown walk. I truly hate to do it, but do not see how we can afford to continue relying on him.

 

So Faneca would be my expensive FA. Hamlin would by my some-what expensive FA. After that, I would be adding numerous mid-level FAs.

 

As for the draft,

 

Rd 1 - OT (Clady is my top choice, w/ Baker 2nd)

Rd2 and 3 - S/OG/WR.

Day two - WR/QB/CB/FB.

[BigDaddy]

Let's be more creative with M Brown. We don't have to cut him if we don't think he can perform better than what we have. He has to have trade value. I still think at his price, if we can get him to renegotiate, we will be well served to keep him. You just can't let a vguy like that walk away. Worst case scenario, we engineer a trade.

[BearSox]

I don't know what you have been watching, but Danieal Manning has had a very good second half and is secured into the FS spot next year. They are not going to give up on him after he has improved in his first 2 seasons and will be entering the crucial 3rd year.

[nfoligno]

I don't know that Brown has ANY trade value.

 

To trade him, another team has to be willing to accept him w/ his current contract. Due to reliability, he is not worth that money. Not only that, but I just do not see another team giving us anything in return for him, not w/ the injury issues.

 

As far as him as a bear, I simply think we need to move on w/o him. Now, again, I wait until after we have a replacement in place, but (a) Mike Brown will not enter 2008 as a backup for the bears and ( I do not trust him enough to enter the year w/ him as a starter.

[nfoligno]

You question what I am watching? I could return the comment, as most any bear fan I speak w/ is quick to call out DM. Sorry, but he has sucked.

 

More than any player on the team, he missed tackles. He goes for the ball, and is tossed to the side. He has only 2 picks on the year, and has only posted a pass deflection in 4 games. He is coming off a high tackle game, but so what. Sorry, but a high tackle stat is not very telling IMHO for a S. If anything, it usually means the receiver first caught the ball, which means the play was made.

 

I have read some who believe the coaches screwed up his development, but you are the first I have read who simply believes he has played well and that FS should not be a concern heading into the offseason.

[BearSox]

You question what I am watching? I could return the comment, as most any bear fan I speak w/ is quick to call out DM. Sorry, but he has sucked.

 

More than any player on the team, he missed tackles. He goes for the ball, and is tossed to the side. He has only 2 picks on the year, and has only posted a pass deflection in 4 games. He is coming off a high tackle game, but so what. Sorry, but a high tackle stat is not very telling IMHO for a S. If anything, it usually means the receiver first caught the ball, which means the play was made.

 

I have read some who believe the coaches screwed up his development, but you are the first I have read who simply believes he has played well and that FS should not be a concern heading into the offseason.

He has improved at FS and they will start the season with him at FS. If they can actually teach him to wrap up and go for the tackle first rather then the strip, and with some time to develop with his pass coverage, he can be a very good FS. They hosed him up at the beginning of the season by making him switch between corner and safety. But he has had a strong second half and will start next season, they aren't going to throw him to the curb in his 3rd season, especially after they spent a high 2nd round pick on him.

[nfoligno]

Never said, "kick him to the curb". I didn't say I want to cut him. I just want to upgrade at FS. He can continue to develop as a backup.

 

Sorry, but while you say he has improved, I haven't seen it. I continue to see questionable coverage instincts, as he is slow to read the play, and slow to break. He has speed and athleticism, but also takes bad angles. Once there, he is a poor tackler. I simply have not seen the improvement you claim, and sure as hell not enough to enter 2008 w/ confidence w/ him.

 

For me, FS ranks up there w/ OL and QB as positions of need. If we added Hamlin to our defense, combined w/ health, I think we would be solid again. If we go into next year w/ McGowan or a rookie at SS, while DM is still maning centerfield, I think it would be a HUGE mistake.

[BearSox]

I see you want to add Hamlin, but there is a reason why the Cowboys probably won't resign him... he has sucked this year.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I don't know what you have been watching, but Danieal Manning has had a very good second half and is secured into the FS spot next year. They are not going to give up on him after he has improved in his first 2 seasons and will be entering the crucial 3rd year.

I agree on Manning. He took off when McBride took over as the 2nd CB and Manning was allowed to just worry about one position (safety).

[nfoligno]

What are you talking about? Hamlin has been voted to the pro bowl. Since Sean Taylor will not be starting (call it a hunch) Hamlin will be the starter, as he is listed as the reserve safety for either FS or SS. Thus, of the 32 safeties, he was voted 3rd.

 

He has 5 picks on the year, as well as 15 PDs (more than any bear). Dallas has seen both starting CBs on the bench for periods of time this year, and Hamlin has been key is helping cover opponents better WRs.

 

Seriuosly do not know what you are talking about. Hamlin has had a very good year this year, and was deserving of the pro bowl nod he got. Where are you getting that he has been bad this year? Do you even watch Cowboy games.

[BearSox]

What are you talking about? Hamlin has been voted to the pro bowl. Since Sean Taylor will not be starting (call it a hunch) Hamlin will be the starter, as he is listed as the reserve safety for either FS or SS. Thus, of the 32 safeties, he was voted 3rd.

 

He has 5 picks on the year, as well as 15 PDs (more than any bear). Dallas has seen both starting CBs on the bench for periods of time this year, and Hamlin has been key is helping cover opponents better WRs.

 

Seriuosly do not know what you are talking about. Hamlin has had a very good year this year, and was deserving of the pro bowl nod he got. Where are you getting that he has been bad this year? Do you even watch Cowboy games.

damn, I didn't know he was having that good of a season... I concede on this one, even though he is far from the 3rd best safety in the league.

[Lucky Luciano]

QB - The one thing about Orton I have seen that I love is pocket presence. He simply seems to have a better feel for the pocket. When a defender is closing in on him, he moves to avoid the rush w/o taking his eyes off the field. That is a huge plus. W/ that said, his accuracy leaves much to be desired and while he has arm strength, I do not like how much of a windup he has. Reminds me of Leftwich. I like him for depth, but no more than that. This is still a huge need. I think Rex is gone. Still not sure if this will be McNabb, a rookie or what, but this is a position that must be addressed.

 

i agree with you on his pocket presence. in that area from what i have seen he moves around the pocket extremely well.

 

i see no problem with his mechanics. his footwork is, in my opinion, very good. he is smooth moving back from under center in 3-5 step drops and is planting his lead foot solidly and stepping into his throws. he is also very smooth in his handoffs to our backs which is another very important trait. i am not seeing a qb with "happy feet" under pressure.

 

i know you (and others) have said he has a windup which leads to a slow release. to be honest i don't agree with this. in my opinion he is getting the ball out quickly and with velocity. i just don't see this windup problem with orton. he also appears to be seeing the field well and not locking in on one receiver as often as one would expect considering the actual games he has played since his rookie season. he also seems to know where the pressure is coming from in blitz packages and can move about to compensate.

 

i believe his main problem in the past has been accuracy. i have seen great improvement from orton in this aspect over the last 3 games. this is not to say he doesn't need some improvement, especially in the short to medium sideline passes, but it looks to me like he is finally "getting it". that said he HAS improved his 'touch' on dump offs and screens.

 

i wish we could have see orton play a few more games but to me, he certainly looks like he can play in the nfl. so that leaves us where? i think he clearly has made griese obsolete. i would also consider orton as starting material who could build upon what we have seen to become a possible very good qb in chicago. he has size and arm strength and the only thing holding him back in the past was his mental aspects of the game OR this coaching staff.

 

right now at this point in his career he is playing as good or better than harbaugh at the height of his career in chicago. this with only the rookie starts and these final three games he can now tout that ugly word... potential, to become a good to VERY good starter. not only would i keep orton but i would seriously consider him as competing for our starting job next season on a LEVEL playing field whether we keep grossman or not. also in my opinion this makes mcnabb obsolete considering what the costs would be to come to chicago.

 

i would also, as i have stated ad nauseum, draft at least one qb and possibly two (and NOT draft qb's to be considered as backups but STARTERS), and bring in a cheap veteran to play our #2-4 qb if grossman goes. if grossman stays he will seriously have to beat out orton and not this crap we have seen in the past of anointing him as our starter. this adds to my concern of our coaching staffs ability to judge qb talent. up to the point they put him in for the last three games they considered orton an afterthought or practice squad quality qb. in my opinion they couldn't have been more wrong.

[nfoligno]

3rd best in the NFL. Actually, as S.Taylor is not longer playing on this earth, 2nd best.

 

W/ that said, there are other safeties I like better, but many of them suffered injuries this year and derailed their seasons, much like our very own Mike Brown. Dawkins is among my favorites, but has been injuried much of the year. Adrian Wilson is one of my favorites. Deon Grant has had a pretty good year in Seattle too.

 

But they are not available. Hamlin has had a very strong year, and Dallas will likely try to keep him, but will have a number of areas they are going to need addressing, in particular their OL. Gotta protect the golden boy.

 

Hamlin is not going to cost anything like other pro bowl safeties (Reed, Polomalu, Sanders) but would be a great addition for us.

[nfoligno]

I agree w/ much of what you said about Orton. Many of his positives we agree on.

 

We absolutely disagree on the wind up. I cringed yesterday on some plays as he began a wind up. His windup is not as slow as Leftwhich, but is similar. Most QB coaches teach the QB to hold the ball already cocked and high. Then you pull the rest of the way back and send it sailing. Orton holds the ball around his mid section, and more in front of him. He then brings it back, then up, then cocked deep, and then lets it fly. This windup (a) puts the ball in a dangerous position for a DE to swip out of his hand when in throwing motion ( gives the DB and extra second to make a jump on the ball and © can off-set some timing issues.

 

It's not just me either. As Orton has been starting, and is now getting talk about being in the picture next year, he is getting far more scrutiny, and most all have talked about his wind up motion. It may not be the end of the world. Not ever successful QB has perfect mechanics, but combined w/ his accuracy, it is an issue.

 

W/ that said, I like Orton. I loved the pick when Angelo made it, and I am a well known Angelo hater. I never gave Orton a ton of credit for his rookie year, as he really didn't do much of anything, but at the same time, I put that on the staff. IMHO, our staff hurt his development by not allowing him to play. When you tell a QB to simply not make mistakes, he is not going to develop. He looked much better against NO, and in that game, it appeared we took the chains off.

 

But as much as I like him, I am not confident going into next year w/ him as the starter. I would have NO issue w/ him being in the mix, but I do not want to go into next year w/ him as the starter. If he beats out whoever to earn it, great. But I want him to have to earn it over a solid QB. McNabb is still the guy I want, if that is even a possibility.

 

As for Griese, to me, it depends on whatelse we do. If we let Grossman walk, I would say we keep Griese. We would likely draft a rookie, and sorry, but Orton is not veteran enough for me. If we took a QB high (1st or 2nd round) I would likely say we go w/ Griese and Orton in a competition to start, while developing the rookie. Ideally, Orton wins, and Griese is the #2, w/ the rookie developing.

 

But my ideal would be to add McNabb w/ Orton as the backup.

[Connorbear]

Let's be more creative with M Brown. We don't have to cut him if we don't think he can perform better than what we have. He has to have trade value. I still think at his price, if we can get him to renegotiate, we will be well served to keep him. You just can't let a vguy like that walk away. Worst case scenario, we engineer a trade.

 

I love Mike Brown but he has absolutely zero trade value. If kept on the roster, they must bring in someone as a contingency plan. He cannot be the only option.

 

Peace

[Pixote]

I love Mike Brown but he has absolutely zero trade value. If kept on the roster, they must bring in someone as a contingency plan. He cannot be the only option.

 

Peace

 

I agree, as much as I would love to see him play 16 games next year, I fear he may not be able to give us 8. We say how valuable the Safety position is in the schemes run by Lovie & BB. We need a good FA pickup or a day one draft selection who can contribute his rookie season.

[nfoligno]

I look at it like this.

 

We are not going to assume Brown is a backup. If on the team, he is the starter.

 

If Mike Brown is the starter, we are not going to add really good safety. If the player was that good, he would sign w/ a team looking to start him. So keeping Mike Brown means we will not have a starting caliber backup. This would be fine if not for the injury issue, but what it means is, when (not if) Brown goes down, we do not have a great backup.

 

W/ that said, I do not cut him immediately. I would be entering the offseason looking to upgrade both SS and FS, but there are no guarantees. If we can add Hamlin in FA, then Brown becomes our starting SS. If we can then add a S high in the draft, Brown can be released. If we do not add a SS in the draft, we keep Brown. McGowan isn't an awful backup plan, and Payne is in the mix too.

 

Point is, we plan to add two safeties, but until we do, we keep Brown.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I look at it like this.

 

We are not going to assume Brown is a backup. If on the team, he is the starter.

 

If Mike Brown is the starter, we are not going to add really good safety. If the player was that good, he would sign w/ a team looking to start him. So keeping Mike Brown means we will not have a starting caliber backup. This would be fine if not for the injury issue, but what it means is, when (not if) Brown goes down, we do not have a great backup.

 

W/ that said, I do not cut him immediately. I would be entering the offseason looking to upgrade both SS and FS, but there are no guarantees. If we can add Hamlin in FA, then Brown becomes our starting SS. If we can then add a S high in the draft, Brown can be released. If we do not add a SS in the draft, we keep Brown. McGowan isn't an awful backup plan, and Payne is in the mix too.

 

Point is, we plan to add two safeties, but until we do, we keep Brown.

I think the Bears should look to add one very good safety and than let Brown battle for the other job with Manning in the role that he will step into either spot with an injury (and with Brown starting you know long term wise there will still be room for Manning to start if he ends up developing into the player the Bears think he's capable of being). You also have McGown and Payne for depth as well so you bring in one new safety, keep Brown (maybe restructure his contract), with Manning/McGowan/Payne all in as backups.

 

Have Manning work hard in the off-season to be ready to be a potential replacement for RMJ as well (who will get cut) so Manning would end up getting plenty of playing time even though he wouldn't be starting anymore (Manning got torched against top WR's this year, but if he was guarding the teams 3rd to 4th best WR he should end up being pretty good).

[Lucky Luciano]

We absolutely disagree on the wind up. I cringed yesterday on some plays as he began a wind up. His windup is not as slow as Leftwhich, but is similar. Most QB coaches teach the QB to hold the ball already cocked and high. Then you pull the rest of the way back and send it sailing. Orton holds the ball around his mid section, and more in front of him. He then brings it back, then up, then cocked deep, and then lets it fly. This windup (a) puts the ball in a dangerous position for a DE to swip out of his hand when in throwing motion (cool.gif gives the DB and extra second to make a jump on the ball and © can off-set some timing issues.

 

It's not just me either. As Orton has been starting, and is now getting talk about being in the picture next year, he is getting far more scrutiny, and most all have talked about his wind up motion. It may not be the end of the world. Not ever successful QB has perfect mechanics, but combined w/ his accuracy, it is an issue.

 

 

hehehe... i have to disagree with your disagreement.

 

i am going to go beyond the accuracy problems which i stated he needs to work on ALTHOUGH he has CERTAINLY improved in that aspect. now on to mechanics...

 

if you are watching orton's most recent games and especially the game against the saints i don't understand what you are saying about orton's "wind up" being detrimental. to be quite honest he has a semi-traditional (at least traditional over the last 20 years and maybe longer, i can't say for sure) throwing motion.

 

your statements about coaches telling qb's to hold the ball cocked and high near the ear, is not used exclusively past youth type football anymore. there are exceptions and i am sure a percentage of college and professional qb's may do this (manning comes to mind) but this is not in my opinion the litmus test for qb mechanics and certainly not a large percentage of them do this.

 

in fact (i am not sure of your opinion of brees but if i remember right you wanted to get him along with me as a free agent two? years back) drew brees has a near identical *throwing motion as orton. here is what i am seeing from orton:

 

good footwork dropping back and orton, in most instances, is using a 4-6 step dropback from the LOS. he is planting the anchor foot correctly while holding the ball with BOTH hands (which will prevent fumbles) at chest level in the middle of his number. this is pretty standard of about every qb with maybe the exception of a **few.

 

when he starts his release, he brings the ball out laterally from his chest and moves/rotates his elbow (which is about level with his shoulder) forward and snaps the ball from this position using the power of his shoulder, hips and back to gain velocity. all this time his shoulders are squared away toward where the ball is going, which is critical, all the while stepping into the throw on his leading foot. if he does this correctly and is not throwing off balance you will see his trailing foot come off the ground on the follow through.

 

i wanted to look at brees considering he was groomed in college by the same people as orton and it proved out. i also DID take a look at both of holmgrens (who i very much respect as someone who can see the potential and groom/teach a qb to play in the nfl) students of the game in favre and hasselbach. hass has a very similar release as orton and favre, well, he is a wildcard that would take more time to study than i wish to spend but there are 'some' similarities.

 

players i believe throw similar to orton, besides brees, would be brady (i believe), bledsoe and warner to name a few and possibly garcia is somewhere in that ballpark.

 

i'd also like to comment on the ball getting swiped by de's with the throwing motion orton uses. any time you put the ball out away from your body you are subject to getting stripped. this is not something that is exclusive to this type of throwing motion but maybe stats would find that it happens more with these specific types of qb's. i really don't feel like looking up that much data but if you wish to i would be happy to view them and maybe we would find they are getting stripped more often, who knows.

 

now on to a final note... i watched favre's, brees's and hasselbach's release and to be honest i just did not see a GREAT difference in the quickness of their release compared to orton once the throwing motion begins. this is NOT, and i repeat NOT, saying every qb throws the same velocity or has the same quickness of release as this surely depends upon every individual but visually they were to me close. i also did not compare them side by side with clocks that register in the thousandths of a second as i don't have any equipment like that, but i would be willing to bet that those releases that i compared in similar dropbacks were in the same league.

 

As for Griese, to me, it depends on whatelse we do. If we let Grossman walk, I would say we keep Griese. We would likely draft a rookie, and sorry, but Orton is not veteran enough for me. If we took a QB high (1st or 2nd round) I would likely say we go w/ Griese and Orton in a competition to start, while developing the rookie. Ideally, Orton wins, and Griese is the #2, w/ the rookie developing.

 

But my ideal would be to add McNabb w/ Orton as the backup.

 

i disagree on keeping griese and especially for the paycheck he gets. in my opinion orton (EVEN assuming he can't cut it in camp or on the field as a starter) can surely replace griese and in my opinion do it better.

 

that said i would also like a veteran on my FOUR QUARTERBACK roster but someone similar to (mental block, can't think of the guy in SF who won SB with ravens) at a cheap price. EVEN someone similar to testaverde or even a blake type guy to fall behind (hopefully) our qb draft picks this year.

 

as far as mcnabb... i truely would like a mcnabb if we had a team to WIN, not just make the playoffs, a superbowl. i don't believe we do at this time and if we do pay mcnabb the kind of money and draft picks philly will want we will more likely than not win a superbowl for mcnabb's tenure in chicago. it would put us behind by too much considering we need to pay top dollar for a receiver and an offenisve lineman unless one of ours happens to be good. we also need some help on our defense with either a good free agent or first day draft pick. where would all this help come from especially with mcnabb's contract probability?

 

*incidently if you want to read about this type of release, phil simms wrote some information on it at: http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:_0EvDt...lient=firefox-a

 

**favre comes to mind here. favre is at times holding the ball around waist level and has a roundhouse throwing motion in many instances which IS pretty unconventional.

[Bears4Ever_34]

Good post, I'll have to edit my post tomorrow its getting late...

[nfoligno]

That is still my plan B. I think adding one S is a must, but I think the best option would be to add two. But w/ Brown still under contract, w/ the possibility DM can develop, w/ McGowan finishing strong, we can afford to add just one safety and let the rest fall where it may. But as much as poor safety play affects our defense, I think adding two S' should be the goal.

[BigDaddy]

That is still my plan B. I think adding one S is a must, but I think the best option would be to add two. But w/ Brown still under contract, w/ the possibility DM can develop, w/ McGowan finishing strong, we can afford to add just one safety and let the rest fall where it may. But as much as poor safety play affects our defense, I think adding two S' should be the goal.

 

Draft Phillips and add one thru FA.

[BigDaddy]

I love Mike Brown but he has absolutely zero trade value. If kept on the roster, they must bring in someone as a contingency plan. He cannot be the only option.

 

Peace

 

You never know. Look at what teams might offer Berrian and Rex and we know first hand what they look to be worth. I want him here, make no mistake I also want us to draft a safetyt and possibly bring another is from FA. That's how important I think the position is.

[nfoligno]

Regarding the disagreement on Orton, we can agree to disagree. I think he has a windup throwing motion, which has been supported by many. Regardless, I to not want to get "too" bogged down by this. It is not a major issue for me. Frankly, I think it is lesser issue than size, which is a hinderance IMHO for Rex. I want to keep Orton, and in any plans I have laid out, he is part of the picture. The key for me is where in the picture he fits. I am fine w/ him being in play to start, but I do not want to go into next year w/ him as the likely starter.

 

Regarding Griese, to me, whether we keep him or not depends on what we do at QB this offseason. I do not see Rex re-signing w/ the team. I think he is gone. If we draft a rookie, I think we keep Griese. We let Griese and Orton battle for the start, while the rookie develops. If we find a veteran (Anderson, McNabb or whoever), then we can more likely drop Griese, draft a QB day two, and go w/ that.

 

No way do I see us cutting Griese in order to add a cheaper veteran. It simply would not be worth the savings, if there is any. I do not know the cap numbers, but I doubt we save much, if anything, if we cut Griese. I believe we still owe in the neighborhood of $2.7m in bonus paid to Griese. That means we are more likely to have a cap hit if we cut him. That is only made worse by spending more, even the veteran minumum, on another veteran. Add to that, i do not know if there are any veterans available that could be as good for us as Griese. Griese is not great, but he is not as bad as i think you may believe.

 

Now, as to your final issue. You do not believe we can afford to go after McNabb right now. Your argument, which I understand, is that we are more than just a QB away from the SB. I do understand you point, I simply disagree we can not still go after him.

 

First point I would make it, I believe it is all about the QB. Few teams do well, much less long term, w/o a great QB. I believe McNabb is still a great QB, and one that can make the rest of your team better.

 

Now, as to "my plan".

 

Let's say we give up a 2nd for McNabb. I do not believe the cost would be so great. Few players get traded for a #1, and fewer still who are not young franchise players. I think McNabb can be had for a 2nd, if even that high. If the cost is more than a 2nd, I walk away.

 

Okay, we give up our 2nd, but we still have our 1st and two 3rd round picks. W/ my 1st, I draft an OT (Clady). That still leaves us two 3rds to look at OG, WR, S (best available). So in terms of draft picks, I think it is very doable. So then $ is the next issue to address.

 

I do not know our cap situation. I have read $19m, but really have no clue. First, I would point out that McNabb would not be that expensive. We do not take on any part of his SB, and only pay him his base salary. His 2008 base salary is $6.3. Not sure of any roster bonuses, but let's bump it up to $7m just in case. That isn't chump change, but not too expensive for a pro bowl QB either. We can afford him.

 

I would let Briggs walk, which saves a bunch of coin. I might add a veteran LB, but not an expensive one. More likely, it is time to let Williams or Okwo step in and play. I do not expect either to be equal, but if we better ourselves elsewhere, the overall affect should not be negative. I would be looking to FA/draft to add a S, but otherwise on defense, I do not see the need to do much. We need to get healthy, but we still have a ton of talent on defense.

 

Our money would be used on offense. The one big signing I make is OL, which I want Faneca. I would love to add some WRs, but it is both a weak draft and FA group, so I don't see much happening here. We can likely afford to tag Berrian, and cutting Moose would offset some of the cost. I would argue that McNabb can do more w/ our WRs, and thus we improve w/o adding much. I also love the idea of what McNabb can do w/ Olsen and Clark. So my money this year would go to McNabb and Faneca. I think both would be money well spent.

 

I like Anderson (Cle) but would then agree we can not afford to add him. He will cost a 1st and 3rd, plus a big contract (w/ brings bonus money into play). Adding him would not work for a team like us who needs more than just a QB to get back to the SB. I simply believe McNabb would cost significantly less.

[BigDaddy]

Regarding the disagreement on Orton, we can agree to disagree. I think he has a windup throwing motion, which has been supported by many. Regardless, I to not want to get "too" bogged down by this. It is not a major issue for me. Frankly, I think it is lesser issue than size, which is a hinderance IMHO for Rex. I want to keep Orton, and in any plans I have laid out, he is part of the picture. The key for me is where in the picture he fits. I am fine w/ him being in play to start, but I do not want to go into next year w/ him as the likely starter.

 

Regarding Griese, to me, whether we keep him or not depends on what we do at QB this offseason. I do not see Rex re-signing w/ the team. I think he is gone. If we draft a rookie, I think we keep Griese. We let Griese and Orton battle for the start, while the rookie develops. If we find a veteran (Anderson, McNabb or whoever), then we can more likely drop Griese, draft a QB day two, and go w/ that.

 

No way do I see us cutting Griese in order to add a cheaper veteran. It simply would not be worth the savings, if there is any. I do not know the cap numbers, but I doubt we save much, if anything, if we cut Griese. I believe we still owe in the neighborhood of $2.7m in bonus paid to Griese. That means we are more likely to have a cap hit if we cut him. That is only made worse by spending more, even the veteran minumum, on another veteran. Add to that, i do not know if there are any veterans available that could be as good for us as Griese. Griese is not great, but he is not as bad as i think you may believe.

 

Now, as to your final issue. You do not believe we can afford to go after McNabb right now. Your argument, which I understand, is that we are more than just a QB away from the SB. I do understand you point, I simply disagree we can not still go after him.

 

First point I would make it, I believe it is all about the QB. Few teams do well, much less long term, w/o a great QB. I believe McNabb is still a great QB, and one that can make the rest of your team better.

 

Now, as to "my plan".

 

Let's say we give up a 2nd for McNabb. I do not believe the cost would be so great. Few players get traded for a #1, and fewer still who are not young franchise players. I think McNabb can be had for a 2nd, if even that high. If the cost is more than a 2nd, I walk away.

 

Okay, we give up our 2nd, but we still have our 1st and two 3rd round picks. W/ my 1st, I draft an OT (Clady). That still leaves us two 3rds to look at OG, WR, S (best available). So in terms of draft picks, I think it is very doable. So then $ is the next issue to address.

 

I do not know our cap situation. I have read $19m, but really have no clue. First, I would point out that McNabb would not be that expensive. We do not take on any part of his SB, and only pay him his base salary. His 2008 base salary is $6.3. Not sure of any roster bonuses, but let's bump it up to $7m just in case. That isn't chump change, but not too expensive for a pro bowl QB either. We can afford him.

 

I would let Briggs walk, which saves a bunch of coin. I might add a veteran LB, but not an expensive one. More likely, it is time to let Williams or Okwo step in and play. I do not expect either to be equal, but if we better ourselves elsewhere, the overall affect should not be negative. I would be looking to FA/draft to add a S, but otherwise on defense, I do not see the need to do much. We need to get healthy, but we still have a ton of talent on defense.

 

Our money would be used on offense. The one big signing I make is OL, which I want Faneca. I would love to add some WRs, but it is both a weak draft and FA group, so I don't see much happening here. We can likely afford to tag Berrian, and cutting Moose would offset some of the cost. I would argue that McNabb can do more w/ our WRs, and thus we improve w/o adding much. I also love the idea of what McNabb can do w/ Olsen and Clark. So my money this year would go to McNabb and Faneca. I think both would be money well spent.

 

I like Anderson (Cle) but would then agree we can not afford to add him. He will cost a 1st and 3rd, plus a big contract (w/ brings bonus money into play). Adding him would not work for a team like us who needs more than just a QB to get back to the SB. I simply believe McNabb would cost significantly less.

 

 

After watching Orton perform under center for the last 2 games, I'm more convinced that while we do need a better o line, a QB who is smart with good fundamentals and somebody who has been around like McNabb could have won at least 2-3 games this year for us. I don't like Anderson because frankly, his last 7 games were not that great, 9 Tds and 11INTs. I also think he needs developing and let's face it, we don't do that very well here in Chicago. Truth be told, he may not be any better an option than our current crop of QBs, surely we can get that kind of production from them. But to pay him all that money plus give up the draft picks? Sorry, I would still go McNabb and I can't really say I like him that much but he's a better choice for us than Anderson. We'd probably want to negotiate/restructure with McNabb to make it a better long term cap friendly deal. His 2008 6.3M isn't bad but they got 9.2M in 2009 and 10M in 2010. Both those numbers are real salary. If we could get McNabb without it killing us I would go for it. What do we give the Eagles for him?