excited about martz

[butkusrules]

love this martz quote

 

When I asked him once about criticism he was facing for not running enough, he said: "I could care less how many times we run the ball. The whole logic is to win the game. I could care less about balance. When I call a game, it's based on what's going on out there and what I see."

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/footb...0,493985.column

[Guest TerraTor]

all fine and dandy, but we need a big time WR

[ChileBear]

love this martz quote

 

When I asked him once about criticism he was facing for not running enough, he said: "I could care less how many times we run the ball. The whole logic is to win the game. I could care less about balance. When I call a game, it's based on what's going on out there and what I see."

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/footb...0,493985.column

Sounds like the antithesis of all our previous OCs under Lovie. I agree with him, just win the games.

[balta1701-A]

all fine and dandy, but we need a big time WR

 

The only position the Bears need to spend less effort at this offseason than WR is QB.

[bowlingtwig]

The only position the Bears need to spend less effort at this offseason than WR is QB.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Lets focus on Oline, DB's, Dline and then if we can get a true #1 WR. If we go out and get more WR's that are not #1's you are risking the development that we have seen so far from Hester, Knox, Bennett and so on.

[madlithuanian]

...and TE. Olsen and Kellen are just fine.

 

But I think if a true #1 WR can be had, we get him.

 

The only position the Bears need to spend less effort at this offseason than WR is QB.

[Pixote]

Devin A is going to be our #1, bash me for all you want, I am thick skinned, but I honestly believe, as long as he stays healthy (even during the preseason when they need to learn this new system), Devin A will put up big numbers this year, #1 numbers, with Knox, Bennett, & Hester getting good stats as well. This is going to be fun to watch!

[chitownman]

It is going to be interesting to see how it all plays out and I agree that I am more concerned with the "O"-line and the DBs and the DL at this point and time and just not getting to excited for the 2010 season. Granted when we get to the end of July and get into Training Camp I will get a bit excited until I see how things play out through the season and at this point I am not able to expect to much and would not be surprised if this all blows up in the face of the franchise.

[Guest TerraTor]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Lets focus on Oline, DB's, Dline and then if we can get a true #1 WR. If we go out and get more WR's that are not #1's you are risking the development that we have seen so far from Hester, Knox, Bennett and so on.

 

 

Thats why Im saying getting a #1. Hester is useless at WR. Hes the best KR of all time, thats where he belongs. Knox would be a great slot WR alongside Aromashadu at #2 and Marshall at #1, TO for a year, whoever.

[jason]

Thats why Im saying getting a #1. Hester is useless at WR. Hes the best KR of all time, thats where he belongs. Knox would be a great slot WR alongside Aromashadu at #2 and Marshall at #1, TO for a year, whoever.

 

Dude...why do you keep spouting this nonsense?

 

Would a true, big-time, legit #1 WR be nice? Yes, absolutely. Right now, however, it's a luxury that takes a back seat to necessity.

 

Furthermore, what's with the Hester bashing? To be quite honest, it's coming off as incredibly ignorant. Hester made strides this year as a WR that are pretty amazing considering his time at the position. His explosive ability is unquestionable. His hands were pretty sure. His route running skills were very good. He just needs to learn more about adjustments, and probably study the playbook a bit more. He played in two less games this year than the last, and he surpassed nearly all of the previous year's numbers. And if not for a few overthrows, he probably would have had a few more long-bomb TDs that would have put his numbers somewhere near 900 yds and 6 TDs. Continuing with the "Hester is useless at WR" talk is just plain stupid.

[nfoligno]

and probably study the playbook a bit more.

 

And here is a key area of concern for me. Hester has struggled to learn the playbook, considered a fairly common and simple one, in a couple years time. I don't question him overall as a WR, nor do I question his playmaking ability, but if he struggled to find a comfort level in the past playbook, what can we really expect now that he not only has to learn a new playbook, but a scheme so different that instead of words, you have numbers.

 

Bennett struggled to learn the playbook his first year, though he seemed to develop his 2nd. Top pick Iglesias (pre reports) struggled also w/ the playbook. Knox did well, but was also only asked to learn a part of the playbook. No clue w/ DA, but he has zero experience in the sort of system he will now have to play. And how about Olsen, who is yet another player not exactly known for his football/playbook smarts.

 

We have talent at WR, but I have not heard many compliment our receivers "smarts". They will now have to learn a VERY different scheme, and don't have a lot of time to do it. I think some may adapt, but I can easily see Hester taking a step back this year. I am not bashing him like Terra. I think Hester can be a good WR. Not a stud #1, but a good WR who offers big play potential. At the same time, I struggle to see him quickly adjusting to a vastly new scheme.

[defiantgiant]

and probably study the playbook a bit more.

 

And here is a key area of concern for me. Hester has struggled to learn the playbook, considered a fairly common and simple one, in a couple years time. I don't question him overall as a WR, nor do I question his playmaking ability, but if he struggled to find a comfort level in the past playbook, what can we really expect now that he not only has to learn a new playbook, but a scheme so different that instead of words, you have numbers.

True, but the Coryell numbering system's main advantage is that it makes plays much, MUCH easier to learn, since you don't really have to memorize anything. When people were questioning Al Saunders' 700-page playbook, he used to say that it was more like a textbook, and that in about 20 minutes, he could teach a receiver everything he needed to know to run any of the plays in it.

 

Check it out: in a West Coast offense like Turner's, Hester would have to memorize some complicated terminology like "23 Go Ruby Slam Right" or whatever. He has to remember what each of those terms stands for, and what they mean for the play, and then he has to pick out "Go" as the part that applies to him. A standard Coryell playcall would be something like "419 H-Post Swing". All Hester has to remember is which number is his (if he's lined up at his usual flanker spot, it's the third one) and then remember that a 9 route is the Go route. Nothing else in the playcall applies to him: the 4 route is for the split end, the 1 route is for the TE or slot receiver, and the Post and Swing routes are for the halfback and fullback. Also, that 4-1-9 corresponds to split-slot-flanker...it's actually read from left to right, in the same order as the players on the field. So Hester literally just has to look to his left, count the other receivers, and then just run whatever number the play tells him.

 

If anything, I think the switch to Martz's number-based terminology could help our young receivers out a LOT. It may be really complicated for the playcaller and the quarterback, but by all accounts it's extremely simple for the receivers.

[bowlingtwig]

Thats why Im saying getting a #1. Hester is useless at WR. Hes the best KR of all time, thats where he belongs. Knox would be a great slot WR alongside Aromashadu at #2 and Marshall at #1, TO for a year, whoever.

Hester is not useless at WR. Why do you think he his. He is not a #1 I will give you that much but what makes you think he is useless. I have pointed out several times that if he didn't miss the 4 games he was on PACE for 80+ catches, over 1000 yds and 6-8 TD's. That is not useless. That is great prediction from a guy that had no true position coming out of college. And this was his 2nd year at the position. Give me break. Find me stats or prove to me that your right. You are the only 1 on here that believes he is useless.

[bowlingtwig]

Thats why Im saying getting a #1. Hester is useless at WR. Hes the best KR of all time, thats where he belongs. Knox would be a great slot WR alongside Aromashadu at #2 and Marshall at #1, TO for a year, whoever.

Hester is not useless at WR. Why do you think he his. He is not a #1 I will give you that much but what makes you think he is useless. I have pointed out several times that if he didn't miss the 4 games he was on PACE for 80+ catches, over 1000 yds and 6-8 TD's. That is not useless. That is great prediction from a guy that had no true position coming out of college. And this was his 2nd year at the position. Give me break. Find me stats or prove to me that your right. You are the only 1 on here that believes he is useless.

[nfoligno]

One. I think it will be tougher than you make out. Even if you accept the WCO is more complicated to learn than Air-C, I would still say there is an issue in a WR having to learn a totally different system. I don't really care what the system to system issue is, any new system takes time, and that is something we do not have.

 

Two. While the terminology may not be minor in the WCO, it is at the same time also by and large the standard terms used, not just in the NFL, but also in many college programs. I mean, it isn't like the "go" route is one thing for one team and another thing for another team. So even if the numbering system is more simple than the WCO, I would argue the WCO terminology is so common that it is in fact the easier one. What's easier. Learning a slightly more compicated class taught in English, or a less complicated class taught in another language you have to learn first.

 

What also really ticks me off is, and a key why I didn't want Martz, is I flat out see this as a one year thing. Unless we hire an Air-C scheme coach after this year, which is absolutely the minority, we will have just about wasted a year in terms of talent.

 

Three. Back to the scheme issue. One thing you always hear players (and coaches) talk about is the learning process. You have to learn a playbook, which in itself is not easy, and more difficult for some than others. But simply memorizing the playbook is barely half the battle. Over time, yo uhave to learn it and be comfortable w/ it to the point that you can play on instinct rather than having to always think about things. Hester talked about how just last year, especially later in the year, he was able to start playing off instinct rather than always being out there thinking. I would say the same for Bennett, who spent is rookie year studying, and his 2nd year getting to that point where he could play off instinct.

 

Now those WRs are back to square one. I don't care how simple the system supposedly is. If they get there at all this year, it will not be until late in the system before players can play instinctively. By then, will it matter?

 

True, but the Coryell numbering system's main advantage is that it makes plays much, MUCH easier to learn, since you don't really have to memorize anything. When people were questioning Al Saunders' 700-page playbook, he used to say that it was more like a textbook, and that in about 20 minutes, he could teach a receiver everything he needed to know to run any of the plays in it.

 

Check it out: in a West Coast offense like Turner's, Hester would have to memorize some complicated terminology like "23 Go Ruby Slam Right" or whatever. He has to remember what each of those terms stands for, and what they mean for the play, and then he has to pick out "Go" as the part that applies to him. A standard Coryell playcall would be something like "419 H-Post Swing". All Hester has to remember is which number is his (if he's lined up at his usual flanker spot, it's the third one) and then remember that a 9 route is the Go route. Nothing else in the playcall applies to him: the 4 route is for the split end, the 1 route is for the TE or slot receiver, and the Post and Swing routes are for the halfback and fullback. Also, that 4-1-9 corresponds to split-slot-flanker...it's actually read from left to right, in the same order as the players on the field. So Hester literally just has to look to his left, count the other receivers, and then just run whatever number the play tells him.

 

If anything, I think the switch to Martz's number-based terminology could help our young receivers out a LOT. It may be really complicated for the playcaller and the quarterback, but by all accounts it's extremely simple for the receivers.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Hester is not useless at WR. Why do you think he his. He is not a #1 I will give you that much but what makes you think he is useless. I have pointed out several times that if he didn't miss the 4 games he was on PACE for 80+ catches, over 1000 yds and 6-8 TD's. That is not useless. That is great prediction from a guy that had no true position coming out of college. And this was his 2nd year at the position. Give me break. Find me stats or prove to me that your right. You are the only 1 on here that believes he is useless.

 

 

Although I don't agree wholeheartedly with TerraTor about the "useless" tag for Hester, I agree (scary in its own right) that Hester is out of place and as you agree, definitely not a #1. I did a comparison, using Rotoworld, to stats with all the other receivers for the Bears (in 09); Aromashodu, Bennett, Knox, Olsen and Hester. Hester actually rated 2nd in total yards to Bennett (682 - 690), 2nd in catches to Olsen (54 - 55) and 3rd in TD's (3 - Knox 5 - Olsen 7). He did get #1 in average yards a game (56.8 - Bennett 46). Aromashodu made his stats in only 9 games and not all the players, save Olsen, played more than 15 games. So the idea of "ASSUMING" that Hester would make the "80+ catches, over 1000 yards and 6-8 TD's" is not only an anti-sure bet but possibly would still not make him a number 1. In fact the fact that he missed those 4 games doesn't bode well for his durability.

 

I took the numbers from Eddie Royal who is/was Denver's #2 and through 15 games in 08 he got 91 catches for 980 yards and 5 TD's whereas in '09 with 14 games he caught 37 passes for 345 yards with 0 TD's. Something you will notice is the dropoff from 08 to 09 and possibly the coincidence of Cutler not being their QB. Whereas Cutler being the QB in Chicago in 09 did not dramatically bring Hester up to loftier numbers('08- 51/665 yds for 3 TD and '09 54/682 for 3 TD). This despite his (Hester's) alleged rise to the #1 WR spot.

 

Lastly, Boldin I believe is the more #1 the Bears need to consider. Not only is he adequate in size but that is his "natural" position. His stats for 09 and in 14 games 81/986 yards and 4 TD's.

 

So, Hester is not really "useless" as a WR but instead he is more misplaced and missing out on his true talent at KR and PR. I fear he has passed his other value in trade value.

[bowlingtwig]

Although I don't agree wholeheartedly with TerraTor about the "useless" tag for Hester, I agree (scary in its own right) that Hester is out of place and as you agree, definitely not a #1. I did a comparison, using Rotoworld, to stats with all the other receivers for the Bears (in 09); Aromashodu, Bennett, Knox, Olsen and Hester. Hester actually rated 2nd in total yards to Bennett (682 - 690), 2nd in catches to Olsen (54 - 55) and 3rd in TD's (3 - Knox 5 - Olsen 7). He did get #1 in average yards a game (56.8 - Bennett 46). Aromashodu made his stats in only 9 games and not all the players, save Olsen, played more than 15 games. So the idea of "ASSUMING" that Hester would make the "80+ catches, over 1000 yards and 6-8 TD's" is not only an anti-sure bet but possibly would still not make him a number 1. In fact the fact that he missed those 4 games doesn't bode well for his durability.

 

I took the numbers from Eddie Royal who is/was Denver's #2 and through 15 games in 08 he got 91 catches for 980 yards and 5 TD's whereas in '09 with 14 games he caught 37 passes for 345 yards with 0 TD's. Something you will notice is the dropoff from 08 to 09 and possibly the coincidence of Cutler not being their QB. Whereas Cutler being the QB in Chicago in 09 did not dramatically bring Hester up to loftier numbers('08- 51/665 yds for 3 TD and '09 54/682 for 3 TD). This despite his (Hester's) alleged rise to the #1 WR spot.

 

Lastly, Boldin I believe is the more #1 the Bears need to consider. Not only is he adequate in size but that is his "natural" position. His stats for 09 and in 14 games 81/986 yards and 4 TD's.

 

So, Hester is not really "useless" as a WR but instead he is more misplaced and missing out on his true talent at KR and PR. I fear he has passed his other value in trade value.

He is done as a KR/PR, so we can stop tossing that around. I am just pointing out that he is far from "useless" like TerraTor has been saying for a long time now. He is no #1 and should be moved to #3. The fact that he is our #1 is not his fault that is the organizations fault for failing to get a #1 during FA last year.

[madlithuanian]

Really? He had some nice returns last season. I don't buy he's done returning. Potentially only under this regime who wants him so badly to be a WR. The next regime may see the light better.

 

He is done as a KR/PR, so we can stop tossing that around. I am just pointing out that he is far from "useless" like TerraTor has been saying for a long time now. He is no #1 and should be moved to #3. The fact that he is our #1 is not his fault that is the organizations fault for failing to get a #1 during FA last year.

 

[jason]

Actually, Hester is open to stepping backwards in the receiving area and going back to the primary returner on KR and PR.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=4886544

[defiantgiant]

Although I don't agree wholeheartedly with TerraTor about the "useless" tag for Hester, I agree (scary in its own right) that Hester is out of place and as you agree, definitely not a #1. I did a comparison, using Rotoworld, to stats with all the other receivers for the Bears (in 09); Aromashodu, Bennett, Knox, Olsen and Hester. Hester actually rated 2nd in total yards to Bennett (682 - 690), 2nd in catches to Olsen (54 - 55) and 3rd in TD's (3 - Knox 5 - Olsen 7). He did get #1 in average yards a game (56.8 - Bennett 46). Aromashodu made his stats in only 9 games and not all the players, save Olsen, played more than 15 games. So the idea of "ASSUMING" that Hester would make the "80+ catches, over 1000 yards and 6-8 TD's" is not only an anti-sure bet but possibly would still not make him a number 1. In fact the fact that he missed those 4 games doesn't bode well for his durability.

So, I like to use fftoday.com, since it gives you targets as well as receptions and yards. They actually tally up how many times the quarterback passed to a particular receiver over the whole season, which is his targets stat. Here are the Bears' receivers:

Devin Hester: 91 targets, 57 catches, 757 yards, 3 TDs

Devin Aromashodu: 43 targets, 24 catches, 298 yards, 4 TDs

Earl Bennett: 88 targets, 54 catches, 717 yards, 2 TDs

Johnny Knox: 80 targets, 45 catches, 527 yards, 5 TDs

 

My favorite measure for wide receivers is yards-per-target, for two reasons. First, it incorporates both catch percentage and yards-per-catch, so you can compare a deep threat like Braylon Edwards (7.23 YPT) to a possession guy like Jerricho Cotchery (8.55 YPT.) Second, you get a receiver's yards-per-target from the same formula as a QB's yards-per-attempt, so the receiver's performance lines up nicely with the quarterback's. And when you look at yards-per-target, Hester is our best receiver:

Hester: 8.32 yards per target

Aromashodu: 6.93 yards per target

Bennett: 8.15 yards per target

Knox: 6.59 yards per target

 

Surprisingly, Bennett comes out pretty well, but Hester's catch percentage was better and he got more yards per catch, adding up to a better YPT. Both of them were significantly more effective than Aromashodu and Knox.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Devin Hester: 91 targets, 57 catches, 757 yards, 3 TDs 63%

Devin Aromashodu: 43 targets, 24 catches, 298 yards, 4 TDs 56%

Earl Bennett: 88 targets, 54 catches, 717 yards, 2 TDs 61%

Johnny Knox: 80 targets, 45 catches, 527 yards, 5 TDs 56%

 

Surprisingly, Bennett comes out pretty well, but Hester's catch percentage was better and he got more yards per catch, adding up to a better YPT. Both of them were significantly more effective than Aromashodu and Knox.

 

You say Tomato, I say TomAHto. I plugged in the percentage of the actual catches to targets. I interpret that Hester did "pedestrian" compared to the other three that you showed as an example. Especially given that he didn't blow the doors off the other three in the percentages and theoretically being the #1. By the way you left out Olsen in your figures. What was his ratio? Another thing to notice was the TD production. Hester paled in that regard to two of the three you mentioned. And to Olsen, who made 8 trips to the endzone by the way. And one last thing to mention is that Aromashadu made his stats in 9 games not the 12 that Hester played in.

 

 

There is almost no question in my mind that Aromashadu will (should) be #1 next year and Bennett will be the "clutch" receiver. Whatever ends up happening, I am pretty excited about the potential given that all the receivers you mentioned were either in their rookie year or first year playing full time. Olsen is the most experienced of the group and he has only been on the team for 4 years.

[bowlingtwig]

You say Tomato, I say TomAHto. I plugged in the percentage of the actual catches to targets. I interpret that Hester did "pedestrian" compared to the other three that you showed as an example. Especially given that he didn't blow the doors off the other three in the percentages and theoretically being the #1. By the way you left out Olsen in your figures. What was his ratio? Another thing to notice was the TD production. Hester paled in that regard to two of the three you mentioned. And to Olsen, who made 8 trips to the endzone by the way. And one last thing to mention is that Aromashadu made his stats in 9 games not the 12 that Hester played in.

 

 

There is almost no question in my mind that Aromashadu will (should) be #1 next year and Bennett will be the "clutch" receiver. Whatever ends up happening, I am pretty excited about the potential given that all the receivers you mentioned were either in their rookie year or first year playing full time. Olsen is the most experienced of the group and he has only been on the team for 4 years.

The biggest thing that we are trying to say is that Hester is not useless. No one on here is trying to saying that he is a #1. BTW, I don't see him going back to being the primary returner as his contract that he signed has clauses in there about being a WR, not a returner.

 

[defiantgiant]

You say Tomato, I say TomAHto. I plugged in the percentage of the actual catches to targets. I interpret that Hester did "pedestrian" compared to the other three that you showed as an example. Especially given that he didn't blow the doors off the other three in the percentages and theoretically being the #1.

Catch percentage among starting wide receivers is very tightly grouped: very few starting WRs have sub-50% catch rates, and 75% is an incredible figure. Since a range of 25% covers about the entire spectrum of starters in the NFL, Hester being 7% better than Aromashodu is a significant figure.

 

By the way you left out Olsen in your figures. What was his ratio? Another thing to notice was the TD production. Hester paled in that regard to two of the three you mentioned. And to Olsen, who made 8 trips to the endzone by the way.

Oh, I'll be the first to admit that Hester's not a good red-zone receiver. He probably never will be. But that's OK by me, as long as we have somebody else to do that. I left out Olsen because tight ends' per-target and per-catch numbers are actually kind of hard to compare to wide receivers. Teams vary so much in how they use tight ends that their stats are harder to interpret. But here's Olsen:

108 targets, 60 catches, 612 yards, 8 scores::10.2 YPC, 55.6% catch rate, 5.67 YPT.

 

And one last thing to mention is that Aromashadu made his stats in 9 games not the 12 that Hester played in.

He was actually active for 10 games, not 9. Unless NFL.com is wrong. Anyway, number of games doesn't matter at all for per-target figures like the ones I'm looking at. The issue is number of targets. And Aromashodu had a little fewer than half of Hester's targets, but fell significantly short of half of Hester's production.

 

There is almost no question in my mind that Aromashadu will (should) be #1 next year and Bennett will be the "clutch" receiver. Whatever ends up happening, I am pretty excited about the potential given that all the receivers you mentioned were either in their rookie year or first year playing full time. Olsen is the most experienced of the group and he has only been on the team for 4 years.

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about this group's potential, too. I just think that Hester's the best among them until somebody proves otherwise.

[ParkerBear7]

Hester is not useless at WR. Why do you think he his. He is not a #1 I will give you that much but what makes you think he is useless. I have pointed out several times that if he didn't miss the 4 games he was on PACE for 80+ catches, over 1000 yds and 6-8 TD's. That is not useless. That is great prediction from a guy that had no true position coming out of college. And this was his 2nd year at the position. Give me break. Find me stats or prove to me that your right. You are the only 1 on here that believes he is useless.

 

 

I could not agree more. If Hester put of those numbers I think that would have been close to what Conway or Graham put up in Kramers's best year and I would take that from any of our WRs. Hester is a playmaker, maybe not a true number 1 but certainly he is a weapon that I think Martz will find a good role for him.

 

I hope Martz offense will resemble the style of O the Saints run from the multiple WR formation, screens etc.