Cutler and his future

[madlithuanian]

Nice read TD! I enjoyed reading your take on the situation...

 

I hate gunslingers. That was a major reason I didn't like the trade to start out with. So I guess I'm a 1%'er in what you are talking about. So I am biased in this conversation because of it. I've always hated Brett Favre. Not just because he was a Packer, and before the recent drama, but just on the fact I hate seeing guys who do stupid stuff and lose games for their teams get praised. I am more fond of a guy like Payton Manning that can read defenses and outsmart them.

 

 

Anyways, here's some reasons I didn't like the trade off the top of my head.

1) the bears just had one of their more productive, efficient, and consistent offenses in a while. Forte just had an amazing rookie season and Orton was home grown and was continuing to grow.

2) while the offense looked better, Forte looked good but only averaged like 3.8 ypc if memory serves me right. It was evident the line would need a solid infusion of youth in the line that it hadn't received yet. The way he was running and with a better line I could see something maybe along the lines of what the Falcons have now. A little above average QB play, combined with a great running game.

3) Most Bronco Fans were happy to see him go. All I read about when talks of a trade were going on was his inaccuracy on deep balls and such.

4) there was too much emphasis on the fact he was a probowl QB. Many QB's have went one time and he just happened to go due to someone else not wanting to go.

5) I just didn't like how he treated the situation. I didn't want a drama queen that said trade me I'm not playing for you.

6) It was like a guy buying a 60 inch plasma screen TV when he couldn't afford cable to me.

 

 

In my defense:

 

1) The team had to start over with a new QB and new philosophy. Turner's coaching turned into more of a passing offense. It looked better than this year, but was Grossman-esque from 2005 when the team would be good one weak and horrible the next. Cutler lead the league in INT's.

2) The running game has been nonexistent. The Offensiveline regressed last year to an ok pass blocking and horrible run blocking line to this year starting 7th round picks and not being able to do either.

3) The Bronco Fans have been laughing since.

4) He's still not looking like that pro bowler everyone was talking about

5) You can see that attitude in how he acts on the field and how he just replied to the question about deangelo hall

6) 2 years in and we still can't see whatever potential is there (60 inch tv) because we don't have cable (a line and wr's)

 

I'll never use Orton's name in a shoulda kept him or shouldn't have debate unless someone else brings it up first. He's a completely different discussion that Cutler to me.

 

Cutler is going to get criticism and deserves it. There are smart fans here who will see things differently from time to time. He got a big enough check and he can deal with it (even tho I'm sure he could careless).

 

He'll get his praise from the people that are giving him hell now if he plays well too. Danielle Manning got it when he "found his niche" in kick returns last year. He's even getting more that he is playing well at safety this year. Urlacher was getting dogged by many coming into this season and getting a lot of props for rebounding this one and so on.

 

So right now, while Cutler is playing like crap, you're going to hear about it from people. To me personally, it's what all I feared from the trade coming true at this point. If he plays lights out the rest of the season, I'm sure myself and others will be saying what was I thinking, this guy is awesome. Right now, he hasn't did anything on the field for me to be thinking that yet. We're all Bears fans here, and just want to see what each of us feel is the best for the team.

 

[azbearsfan]

It's not all about Cutler there. It's more against JA and how I think things should have went. The 6 things I listed is just problems I had at the trade and how they look now. My major problem at the trade, cutler aside, was I felt the team needed those additional pieces you say are misisng. I don't undersstand arguing for the trade and yet say he has nothing around him.

 

 

Good points. Plus, JA had just taken a Chris Williams, so I dont think its a stretch to say he would have taken an OL.

 

 

[madlithuanian]

Odds are they'd be busts w/ JA's stellar track record...

 

Sorry, couldn't resist an easy jab at the regime of doom!

 

agree theres no way of knowing how those picks would have been spent.

 

[selection7]

Evident to whom? Not the Bears' front office or management, who STILL ignored OL even though they picked up Cutler. You're fooling yourself if you think they would have picked OL.

We'd still have had two firsts and a third. If you don't think we'd have spent even one of those on OL, you're the one fooling yourself. Even discounting that, you're the one mixing apples with oranges if you're gonna start with "well the reality is we wouldn't have gone OL anyway". Well, the real reality is we traded a bunch of high value picks and our QB for their QB and one low value pick. But it's not interesting to debate/question reality is it?... its fact. Because there can be no debate. It's right there on Wikipedia . The matter up for debate is what should we have done. If you think the Cutler trade was good, that's fine. But this defensive line of thinking you're employing has to be some sort of "logical fallacy' (and I'm not looking it up right now to check).

[Lucky Luciano]

I hate gunslingers. That was a major reason I didn't like the trade to start out with. So I guess I'm a 1%'er in what you are talking about. So I am biased in this conversation because of it. I've always hated Brett Favre. Not just because he was a Packer, and before the recent drama, but just on the fact I hate seeing guys who do stupid stuff and lose games for their teams get praised. I am more fond of a guy like Payton Manning that can read defenses and outsmart them.

 

just so i got this right... you would choose to have kyle orton as he was 2 years ago to present rather than brett favre in his prime for a career in chicago?

 

well, to each his own. i personally can't stand favre's lovefest with himself and he is a jerk as a human being but there is no way i pass up the talent that guy possessed over a 15 year span to have a dink and dunk quarterback like orton who at best gives me a whiff of the playoffs in a one and done without a stellar all-pro team behind him. i personally want, in the era of a pass oriented, pass rule qualified nfl, a killer qb who can not just manage a game and get me that once every 20-30 year trip to the superbowl but give me the real possibility and chance of WINNING a superbowl every single year. look at nfl history. how many teams with vs. teams without very good to excellent qb's have multiple superbowl wins? superbowl wins is the ONLY measuring stick for success in this league. everything else is meaningless.

 

as far as being fond of a guy like manning? uhhh yea, who isn't. he is arguably the best quarterback ever to play in the history of the nfl. who wouldn't want him?

 

Anyways, here's some reasons I didn't like the trade off the top of my head.

1) the bears just had one of their more productive, efficient, and consistent offenses in a while. Forte just had an amazing rookie season and Orton was home grown and was continuing to grow.

2) while the offense looked better, Forte looked good but only averaged like 3.8 ypc if memory serves me right. It was evident the line would need a solid infusion of youth in the line that it hadn't received yet. The way he was running and with a better line I could see something maybe along the lines of what the Falcons have now. A little above average QB play, combined with a great running game.

3) Most Bronco Fans were happy to see him go. All I read about when talks of a trade were going on was his inaccuracy on deep balls and such.

4) there was too much emphasis on the fact he was a probowl QB. Many QB's have went one time and he just happened to go due to someone else not wanting to go.

5) I just didn't like how he treated the situation. I didn't want a drama queen that said trade me I'm not playing for you.

6) It was like a guy buying a 60 inch plasma screen TV when he couldn't afford cable to me.

 

1. 2006 – 3rd team offense in nfl; 14th in passing, 15th in rushing

2007 – 20th team offense in nfl; 15th in passing, 30th in rushing

 

i am assuming you are talking about 2008 when orton/turner combined for a 9-7 season with no playoffs?

 

2008 – 15th team offense in the nfl; 21st in passing, 24th in rushing – here is our offensive line in 2008: LT st. clair, LG beekman, C kreutz, RG garza, RT tait.

 

orton: 58.5 completion percentage, 79.6 QB rating, 27 sacks 465 attempts, 12 INT’s

forte: 3.9 yds rushing average, 7.6 yd avg receiving

 

this was productive, efficient, and consistent? i will give you consistent, consistently worse than average.

 

2009 – 19th team offense in the nfl; 17th in passing, 29th in rushing

offensive line: LT pace LT c. williams, LG omiyale, C kreutz, RG garza, RT c. williams RT shaffer, this was one of the worst offensive lines ever.

 

cutler: 60.5 completion percentage, 76.8 QB rating, 35 sacks, 555 attempts, 26 INT’s, the only reason cutler didn’t have 70 sacks is because of his mobility. if you can find a times hit stat it also has to be phenominal.

forte: 3.6 yds rushing avg, 8.3 yd avg receiving

 

3. a lot of bear fans were itching to dump our pro-bowl linebacker, briggs, 2 years ago when he wanted a big contract and talked about leaving chicago. so i wouldn’t take too much stock in what fans say about a player who wants out. a better tool to measure his popularity would be how many fans and media people wanted him out of denver the previous year?

 

deep ball inacuracies? and you are going to compare him to orton in this aspect? really???

 

4. too much emphasis on the pro-bowl? that may be true at times but when was the last time ANY bear qb was even considered in the same breath with the pro-bowl?

 

5. you mean like

.; Sep 14 2009 - Since the trade tho I've been dumbfounded. Cutler, talent, possible awesomeness I've bought into it and still have.; Oct 11 2009 - I'm really happy with the trade now. Between Cutler and Knox, we got a pretty darn good deal in my opinion

 

6. the problem here is that the “guy”, angelo, COULD afford cable. even without a first round pick who most people knew angelo wouldn’t use on an OL (especially after spending a first on one the year before).

 

he traded out of our highest pick in 2009, a 2nd rounder in which he could have drafted unger the best projected center in the draft and a good guard to boot, to get more lower round picks (3rd and 4th round picks) in which he picked again, DL. he should have drafted players to keep the player he just spent the moon to get healthy. in my opinion 2nd rd, 3rd rd, and even 4th rd picks should have been used on the OL!!

 

then in 2009 he traded our highest pick in the ’10 draft, a 2nd rounder, for another DL veteran who couldn’t even break the starting lineup in the team we got him from and couldn’t break ours with the average players we had!! to top that off he again spent his highest pick in 2010, a 3rd rounder, on drafting yet another safety instead of the critical OL that was virtually falling apart before his eyes when he made the trade!!!!

 

it was pure stupidity or pure insanity, take your pick.

 

 

In my defense:

 

1) The team had to start over with a new QB and new philosophy. Turner's coaching turned into more of a passing offense. It looked better than this year, but was Grossman-esque from 2005 when the team would be good one weak and horrible the next. Cutler lead the league in INT's.

2) The running game has been nonexistent. The Offensiveline regressed last year to an ok pass blocking and horrible run blocking line to this year starting 7th round picks and not being able to do either.

3) The Bronco Fans have been laughing since.

4) He's still not looking like that pro bowler everyone was talking about

5) You can see that attitude in how he acts on the field and how he just replied to the question about deangelo hall

6) 2 years in and we still can't see whatever potential is there (60 inch tv) because we don't have cable (a line and wr's)

 

1. turner is and was terrible. the problem was our fearless leaders decided to keep a lame duck GM and coaching staff for monetary reasons. so...

A) we ended up with nobody wanting to come in to coach for this team on either side of the ball.

we didn’t even address the major concerns on our offensive line that CAUSED most of the offensive problems we witnessed in 2009.

2. our OL was not good at anything including pass protection last year and has gotten worse this year.

3. if bronco fans are laughing about anything this year, being 2 and 5, they must be complete loonies.

4. with what he is working with he will never look like anything but what he looks like now. there is no S on the front of his uniform that i have seen.

5. keeeeeripes!!! what do you expect him to say? that he would never again throw in the direction of a poor cornerback? it was a STUPID media question that didn’t even deserve an answer!!!

6. unless we can put up an nfl professional quality at least average offensive line don’t look for seeing the potential ever of any qb.

 

Cutler is going to get criticism and deserves it. There are smart fans here who will see things differently from time to time. He got a big enough check and he can deal with it (even tho I'm sure he could careless).

 

of course he deserves critisism. but when a team throws a quality player into the fire with nothing to protect him and expect him to perform like your payton manning it is completely unrealistic.

 

just for sh!($ and grins, have you watched many colts games? do you know how you stop manning? you get in his face and you knock him down. you bring people from every direction and blitz the hell out of him and guess what? HE looks like crap too. i have SEEN it!!! why do you think that is? why do you think cutler should be somehow better than the golden boy manning when he is getting his #!%^ knocked in the dirt every single play??? if anybody, and i mean ANYBODY thinks manning could cope with the offensive line and the blocking cutler gets from our TE’s and RB’s and still end up in the pro-bowl they are delusional!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

So right now, while Cutler is playing like crap, you're going to hear about it from people. To me personally, it's what all I feared from the trade coming true at this point. If he plays lights out the rest of the season, I'm sure myself and others will be saying what was I thinking, this guy is awesome. Right now, he hasn't did anything on the field for me to be thinking that yet. We're all Bears fans here, and just want to see what each of us feel is the best for the team.

 

if you are expecting miracles and manna from heaven to drop down on soldier field this season you are going to be one unhappy frustrated person. it is not going to get much *better and has all the ingredients to be a complete catastrophie. this offensive line is just plain bad. it is not neccessarily the coaching or the scheme or anything else. they just don’t have the talent and no matter how you want something better to happen it just isn’t going to.

 

*at best like i have stated in the past, you may, with a lot of luck, get 1 or 2 of these linemen to improve as the season goes on and dumbing down the offensive scheme ‘may’ help some but most are not pro talented players or way past their prime at this time and probably never will be better than what you see.

 

put it this way... name any player on the offensive line that another team would give up a draft pick for and how high. that should be the yardstick for the real quality of this squad.

 

[madlithuanian]

I would not have Favre at any point ever in the existence of the universe. F Favre. He can rot... He is not, nor shall he ever be a Chicago Bear.

 

F him.

 

(Sorry, I didn't mean to take a wrong turn at Albequerque regarding the crux of your arguments...but I couldn't resist making disparaging remarks about such abhorent evil...)

 

just so i got this right... you would choose to have kyle orton as he was 2 years ago to present rather than brett favre in his prime for a career in chicago?

[Lucky Luciano]

I would not have Favre at any point ever in the existence of the universe. F Favre. He can rot... He is not, nor shall he ever be a Chicago Bear.

 

F him.

 

(Sorry, I didn't mean to take a wrong turn at Albequerque regarding the crux of your arguments...but I couldn't resist making disparaging remarks about such abhorent evil...)

 

i understand the hatred for favre at this point in his career (i'm completely on that bandwagon) but in reality, if he came here from the falcons and had the career he had in green bay in chicago i just can't believe anyone would choose orton or any qb chicago as sported in 50 years over the talent he had. it would be just mindboggling to me that anyone wouldn't want a player who never missed a game in his entire career and is going to the hall of fame over the cannon fodder we have had in this city.

 

mcmahon is one of my favorite personalities but if favre were playing during the 85 bear era we would have had 4 rings without a doubt in my mind. no flutie. no tomzak and no harbaugh (plus the other 50 or more).

[madlithuanian]

"NA! NA NA NA NA!!!" (Eyes closed, hands over ears...)

 

I can't even fathom that! The reality of events is that he went to the Packers and f'ed us for 20 years as we had to listen to Madden fluff him. Now he's being fluffed by everyone but Jenn Sterger. I can't stand him. I want him gone. He is the most irritating celebrity of all time.

 

(Yes, I get where you're coming from, but I just can't deal w/ this hypothetical question...)

 

BTW - McMahon would have had 5 more rings had that cheap shot bastard, Charles Martin, not slammed him to the turf in the most unsportsmanlike deed in NFL history ruining both McMahon's career and the Bears' reign...

 

 

 

i understand the hatred for favre at this point in his career (i'm completely on that bandwagon) but in reality, if he came here from the falcons and had the career he had in green bay in chicago i just can't believe anyone would choose orton or any qb chicago as sported in 50 years over the talent he had. it would be just mindboggling to me that anyone wouldn't want a player who never missed a game in his entire career and is going to the hall of fame over the cannon fodder we have had in this city.

 

mcmahon is one of my favorite personalities but if favre were playing during the 85 bear era we would have had 4 rings without a doubt in my mind. no flutie. no tomzak and no harbaugh (plus the other 50 or more).

 

[Lucky Luciano]

"NA! NA NA NA NA!!!" (Eyes closed, hands over ears...)

 

I can't even fathom that! The reality of events is that he went to the Packers and f'ed us for 20 years as we had to listen to Madden fluff him. Now he's being fluffed by everyone but Jenn Sterger. I can't stand him. I want him gone. He is the most irritating celebrity of all time.

 

(Yes, I get where you're coming from, but I just can't deal w/ this hypothetical question...)

 

BTW - McMahon would have had 5 more rings had that cheap shot bastard, Charles Martin, not slammed him to the turf in the most unsportsmanlike deed in NFL history ruining both McMahon's career and the Bears' reign...

 

LOL, ok i will put away the hypo scenario. i too dislike favre personally more than anyone i can think of.

 

jimmy mac? i really liked him and still like him but the truth of the matter is he was not physically built to play in the nfl with his mindset. he took a beating and was always hurt even before that scumbag martin slam dunked him. lacerated kidney etc. etc.

 

injuries were just part of his gameplan and it (and ditka) cost us multiple superbowls.

['TD']

as far as being fond of a guy like manning? uhhh yea, who isn't. he is arguably the best quarterback ever to play in the history of the nfl. who wouldn't want him?

 

I was using 2 QB's that are used when talking about the best QB in history when contrasting their style of play. Cutler the "gunslinger" like Favre and Orton the smart QB ala "Payton Manning". No I am not saying Orton is on or near Mannings level, but he's about away from being Payton as Jay is from being Brett.

 

 

]i am assuming you are talking about 2008 when orton/turner combined for a 9-7 season with no playoffs?

Yes I was comparing his first year having free reign being named as QB early to Jay's first year as being top dog in Chicago that went 7-9 with no play offs.

 

orton: 58.5 completion percentage, 79.6 QB rating, 27 sacks 465 attempts, 12 INT’s

forte: 3.9 yds rushing average, 7.6 yd avg receiving

 

this was productive, efficient, and consistent? i will give you consistent, consistently worse than average.

Yes it was consistent and efficient. 12 int's is definitely more efficient than 26 int's from Cutler. It was consistent. Cutler had 19 td's to 25 picks going into the last 2 games which he blew up with 4 TD's a piece. That's the definition of inconsistent to me. You don't know whether your QB is going to throw 4 int's or TD's each game.

 

[deep ball inacuracies? and you are going to compare him to orton in this aspect? really???

 

 

When he throws deep more often than Orton, yes it matters. If you look deep first and inaccurate, it matters more than a QB that rarely looks deep and relies on short throws to move the chains. Look at the one drive that actually worked Sunday. He wasn't doing his norm and throwing deep, he got hit less, took less sacks, and his inaccuracy with the long ball didn't end in wasted downs. He played an ortonesque drive and had success, compared to Cutleresque the rest of the game.

 

 

 

 

6. the problem here is that the “guy”, angelo, COULD afford cable. even without a first round pick who most people knew angelo wouldn’t use on an OL (especially after spending a first on one the year before).

 

he traded out of our highest pick in 2009, a 2nd rounder in which he could have drafted unger the best projected center in the draft and a good guard to boot, to get more lower round picks (3rd and 4th round picks) in which he picked again, DL. he should have drafted players to keep the player he just spent the moon to get healthy. in my opinion 2nd rd, 3rd rd, and even 4th rd picks should have been used on the OL!!

 

then in 2009 he traded our highest pick in the ’10 draft, a 2nd rounder, for another DL veteran who couldn’t even break the starting lineup in the team we got him from and couldn’t break ours with the average players we had!! to top that off he again spent his highest pick in 2010, a 3rd rounder, on drafting yet another safety instead of the critical OL that was virtually falling apart before his eyes when he made the trade!!!!

 

it was pure stupidity or pure insanity, take your pick.

 

I agree many picks should have been invested in the line over the JA Era that wasn't. Yet, the first round picks are the ones you need to spend on the line. How many starting linemen came out of the 2nd 3rd and 4th round that year that should have been picked? I'm sure sure there was a few, but the true talent, especially at tackle, is found in the first.

 

 

 

1. turner is and was terrible. the problem was our fearless leaders decided to keep a lame duck GM and coaching staff for monetary reasons. so...

A) we ended up with nobody wanting to come in to coach for this team on either side of the ball.

we didn’t even address the major concerns on our offensive line that CAUSED most of the offensive problems we witnessed in 2009.

2. our OL was not good at anything including pass protection last year and has gotten worse this year.

 

Which is my point, when I say I didn't feel the addition of Cutler wasn't worth the talent that could be added to make this team better. There wasn't much that could have really been added this year giving the options, but yes JA was dumb in neglecting the line, as he was for giving away 3 high draft picks and a starting QB for Jay Cutler.

 

3. if bronco fans are laughing about anything this year, being 2 and 5, they must be complete loonies.

Simply yes. Orton has 11 TD's over 2100 yards and only 4 int's. I'm sure they aren't thinking wow I wish I had Cutler. QB isn't their problem this year.

 

5. keeeeeripes!!! what do you expect him to say? that he would never again throw in the direction of a poor cornerback? it was a STUPID media question that didn’t even deserve an answer!!!

 

No, but you also don't say you'll pass it to the guy that had more yards on int returns than any WR had on receptions that game everytime.

 

6. unless we can put up an nfl professional quality at least average offensive line don’t look for seeing the potential ever of any qb.

 

 

 

Once again, my point on a reason I hate the trade.

 

of course he deserves critisism. but when a team throws a quality player into the fire with nothing to protect him and expect him to perform like your payton manning it is completely unrealistic.

 

I don't expect him to play like Payton Manning, I just preferred that style of QB over the gunslinger style. Not having 5 turnovers in a very winnable game would be a start or just playing smarter.

 

just for sh!($ and grins, have you watched many colts games? do you know how you stop manning? you get in his face and you knock him down. you bring people from every direction and blitz the hell out of him and guess what? HE looks like crap too. i have SEEN it!!! why do you think that is? why do you think cutler should be somehow better than the golden boy manning when he is getting his #!%^ knocked in the dirt every single play??? if anybody, and i mean ANYBODY thinks manning could cope with the offensive line and the blocking cutler gets from our TE’s and RB’s and still end up in the pro-bowl they are delusional!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yes that's how you can beat QB's but not all play bad as Jay in those situations. That's where reading your defenses, moving players, knowing how to hit someone fast instead of holding onto the ball or making bad throws becomes important.

 

 

put it this way... name any player on the offensive line that another team would give up a draft pick for and how high. that should be the yardstick for the real quality of this squad.

 

Once again that's my point, we needed linemen not a QB.

[madlithuanian]

 

I exaggerated a bit on the number of rings obviously. I do think he, in a lot of ways like Mike Brown, was a little too fragile. But, I do not doubt for a minute that that incident ruined him. Before, he could bounce back after a few weeks. After that, he was never the same. My blood boils just thinking about it... That's the moment when my personal hatred for the Packers hit epic levels and hasn't decreased since.

 

I think losing Finks actually cost us more than Ditka ever did. Also McCaskey getting more involved was obviously really bad. Ditka was a brilliant figurehead I think. Ra-ra guy. Had we had the QB talent, we'd have been just fine. I just rembmer the one thing Ditka used to piss me off with was the draw on 3rd and long! Granted, w/ Sweetness, it wasn't the worst thing in the world and he broke some firsts every now and then. But that play at those moments just drew my ire!

 

And let's remember those years following '85 were excelllent. Great regular season records and good playoff records overall. We lost out to teams like the Parcells' Giants, the Gibbs' Redskins, the Walsh Niners, and the Johnson Cowboys. All on record as some of the best teams ever w/ all kinds of HOF talent. We picked a bad decade to be great in. But, among all those, we still stand out as the gold standard for the beat year EVER. Screw the undefeated Dolphins. The only thing people can remember about those guys is how good they can pop open a Champagne cork. Where the 85 Bears de-corked QB's legally!

 

LOL, ok i will put away the hypo scenario. i too dislike favre personally more than anyone i can think of.

 

jimmy mac? i really liked him and still like him but the truth of the matter is he was not physically built to play in the nfl with his mindset. he took a beating and was always hurt even before that scumbag martin slam dunked him. lacerated kidney etc. etc.

 

injuries were just part of his gameplan and it (and ditka) cost us multiple superbowls.

 

[Connorbear]

"NA! NA NA NA NA!!!" (Eyes closed, hands over ears...)

 

I can't even fathom that! The reality of events is that he went to the Packers and f'ed us for 20 years as we had to listen to Madden fluff him. Now he's being fluffed by everyone but Jenn Sterger. I can't stand him. I want him gone. He is the most irritating celebrity of all time.

 

(Yes, I get where you're coming from, but I just can't deal w/ this hypothetical question...)

I agree 100%. I cannot stand that POS.

 

Peace

[azbearsfan]

Here is the bottom line,

 

I want wins. How many wins has Cutler cost the team with his turnovers this and last year?

 

 

If that dipsh*t simply throws the ball away instead of lobbing a 85 yard pick six to Hall we win the damn game.

[flea]

4. too much emphasis on the pro-bowl? that may be true at times but when was the last time ANY bear qb was even considered in the same breath with the pro-bowl?

 

.

 

Orton before he got injured his last year here

[jason]

We'd still have had two firsts and a third. If you don't think we'd have spent even one of those on OL, you're the one fooling yourself. Even discounting that, you're the one mixing apples with oranges if you're gonna start with "well the reality is we wouldn't have gone OL anyway". Well, the real reality is we traded a bunch of high value picks and our QB for their QB and one low value pick. But it's not interesting to debate/question reality is it?... its fact. Because there can be no debate. It's right there on Wikipedia . The matter up for debate is what should we have done. If you think the Cutler trade was good, that's fine. But this defensive line of thinking you're employing has to be some sort of "logical fallacy' (and I'm not looking it up right now to check).

 

Why do you take this as fact? What in Angelo's track record suggests that he would have picked an OLineman? Nothing.

 

As for logical fallacies, you're the one trying to prove something that is impossible to prove (i.e. what the Bears would have done). You are stating that the Bears DEFINITELY would have picked someone for the OL with a first round pick. The evidence and history suggests otherwise. Nobody is debating what happened IN the trade, but you're sure as hell trying to debate something that would have happened, despite your position's contradiction with history.

 

Nevertheless, if we all think it was such a great need, and you're absolutely convinced that it was the Bears' #1 priority, and the Bears' front office also thought that, then why didn't they draft an OL with the first available pick last year? Shortly after the Bears picked Major Wright there were two quality OLinemen selected in the end of the third. Figure that one out.

[jason]

just so i got this right... you would choose to have kyle orton as he was 2 years ago to present rather than brett favre in his prime for a career in chicago?

 

well, to each his own. i personally can't stand favre's lovefest with himself and he is a jerk as a human being but there is no way i pass up the talent that guy possessed over a 15 year span to have a dink and dunk quarterback like orton who at best gives me a whiff of the playoffs in a one and done without a stellar all-pro team behind him. i personally want, in the era of a pass oriented, pass rule qualified nfl, a killer qb who can not just manage a game and get me that once every 20-30 year trip to the superbowl but give me the real possibility and chance of WINNING a superbowl every single year. look at nfl history. how many teams with vs. teams without very good to excellent qb's have multiple superbowl wins? superbowl wins is the ONLY measuring stick for success in this league. everything else is meaningless.

 

as far as being fond of a guy like manning? uhhh yea, who isn't. he is arguably the best quarterback ever to play in the history of the nfl. who wouldn't want him?

 

1. 2006 – 3rd team offense in nfl; 14th in passing, 15th in rushing

2007 – 20th team offense in nfl; 15th in passing, 30th in rushing

 

i am assuming you are talking about 2008 when orton/turner combined for a 9-7 season with no playoffs?

 

2008 – 15th team offense in the nfl; 21st in passing, 24th in rushing – here is our offensive line in 2008: LT st. clair, LG beekman, C kreutz, RG garza, RT tait.

 

orton: 58.5 completion percentage, 79.6 QB rating, 27 sacks 465 attempts, 12 INT’s

forte: 3.9 yds rushing average, 7.6 yd avg receiving

 

this was productive, efficient, and consistent? i will give you consistent, consistently worse than average.

 

2009 – 19th team offense in the nfl; 17th in passing, 29th in rushing

offensive line: LT pace LT c. williams, LG omiyale, C kreutz, RG garza, RT c. williams RT shaffer, this was one of the worst offensive lines ever.

 

cutler: 60.5 completion percentage, 76.8 QB rating, 35 sacks, 555 attempts, 26 INT’s, the only reason cutler didn’t have 70 sacks is because of his mobility. if you can find a times hit stat it also has to be phenominal.

forte: 3.6 yds rushing avg, 8.3 yd avg receiving

 

3. a lot of bear fans were itching to dump our pro-bowl linebacker, briggs, 2 years ago when he wanted a big contract and talked about leaving chicago. so i wouldn’t take too much stock in what fans say about a player who wants out. a better tool to measure his popularity would be how many fans and media people wanted him out of denver the previous year?

 

deep ball inacuracies? and you are going to compare him to orton in this aspect? really???

 

4. too much emphasis on the pro-bowl? that may be true at times but when was the last time ANY bear qb was even considered in the same breath with the pro-bowl?

 

5. you mean like

 

6. the problem here is that the “guy”, angelo, COULD afford cable. even without a first round pick who most people knew angelo wouldn’t use on an OL (especially after spending a first on one the year before).

 

he traded out of our highest pick in 2009, a 2nd rounder in which he could have drafted unger the best projected center in the draft and a good guard to boot, to get more lower round picks (3rd and 4th round picks) in which he picked again, DL. he should have drafted players to keep the player he just spent the moon to get healthy. in my opinion 2nd rd, 3rd rd, and even 4th rd picks should have been used on the OL!!

 

then in 2009 he traded our highest pick in the ’10 draft, a 2nd rounder, for another DL veteran who couldn’t even break the starting lineup in the team we got him from and couldn’t break ours with the average players we had!! to top that off he again spent his highest pick in 2010, a 3rd rounder, on drafting yet another safety instead of the critical OL that was virtually falling apart before his eyes when he made the trade!!!!

 

it was pure stupidity or pure insanity, take your pick.

 

 

 

 

1. turner is and was terrible. the problem was our fearless leaders decided to keep a lame duck GM and coaching staff for monetary reasons. so...

A) we ended up with nobody wanting to come in to coach for this team on either side of the ball.

we didn’t even address the major concerns on our offensive line that CAUSED most of the offensive problems we witnessed in 2009.

2. our OL was not good at anything including pass protection last year and has gotten worse this year.

3. if bronco fans are laughing about anything this year, being 2 and 5, they must be complete loonies.

4. with what he is working with he will never look like anything but what he looks like now. there is no S on the front of his uniform that i have seen.

5. keeeeeripes!!! what do you expect him to say? that he would never again throw in the direction of a poor cornerback? it was a STUPID media question that didn’t even deserve an answer!!!

6. unless we can put up an nfl professional quality at least average offensive line don’t look for seeing the potential ever of any qb.

 

 

 

of course he deserves critisism. but when a team throws a quality player into the fire with nothing to protect him and expect him to perform like your payton manning it is completely unrealistic.

 

just for sh!($ and grins, have you watched many colts games? do you know how you stop manning? you get in his face and you knock him down. you bring people from every direction and blitz the hell out of him and guess what? HE looks like crap too. i have SEEN it!!! why do you think that is? why do you think cutler should be somehow better than the golden boy manning when he is getting his #!%^ knocked in the dirt every single play??? if anybody, and i mean ANYBODY thinks manning could cope with the offensive line and the blocking cutler gets from our TE’s and RB’s and still end up in the pro-bowl they are delusional!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

if you are expecting miracles and manna from heaven to drop down on soldier field this season you are going to be one unhappy frustrated person. it is not going to get much *better and has all the ingredients to be a complete catastrophie. this offensive line is just plain bad. it is not neccessarily the coaching or the scheme or anything else. they just don’t have the talent and no matter how you want something better to happen it just isn’t going to.

 

*at best like i have stated in the past, you may, with a lot of luck, get 1 or 2 of these linemen to improve as the season goes on and dumbing down the offensive scheme ‘may’ help some but most are not pro talented players or way past their prime at this time and probably never will be better than what you see.

 

put it this way... name any player on the offensive line that another team would give up a draft pick for and how high. that should be the yardstick for the real quality of this squad.

 

This post is so true. How anyone could think otherwise is baffling.

[jason]

Good points. Plus, JA had just taken a Chris Williams, so I dont think its a stretch to say he would have taken an OL.

 

Considering Williams' health and play, it's a BIG stretch to think that JA would have taken an OL. How can you even think otherwise when JA's history is factored in.

 

You guys are truly delusional with all this "Angelo would have drafted an OL with the first round pick traded away for Cutler" nonsense.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

It's not that I agree or disagree with this monster of a thread I've created. It was simply- how long will the organization stick with him? When do the fans start letting him have it like Grossman? When do the players give up? If a new regime comes in, will they want to keep Cutler and have HIM lead the team in a Super Bowl quest (McDaniels obviously didn't in Denver)? Just food for thought..

['TD']

Why do you take this as fact? What in Angelo's track record suggests that he would have picked an OLineman? Nothing.

 

JA does have a horrible track record of drafting OL over all in the draft, but the first round isn't a place he has shied away from it. He's drafted 2 Olinemen, 2 Dlinemen, and one of each in a QB, RB, and TE. So there it far from unfathomable given the state the line is in. The 2 first round picks could have very likely resulted in not only a first round lineman but also if the other pick was used on another position that he did draft, another lineman could have been drafted earlier than the 7th round.

[flea]

JA does have a horrible track record of drafting OL over all in the draft, but the first round isn't a place he has shied away from it. He's drafted 2 Olinemen, 2 Dlinemen, and one of each in a QB, RB, and TE. So there it far from unfathomable given the state the line is in. The 2 first round picks could have very likely resulted in not only a first round lineman but also if the other pick was used on another position that he did draft, another lineman could have been drafted earlier than the 7th round.

 

 

Ya sure Trav? I ask because Tommy Waddle's been hammering on his show the last couple weeks over & over about how we've only drafted1 OL

[azbearsfan]

Considering Williams' health and play, it's a BIG stretch to think that JA would have taken an OL. How can you even think otherwise when JA's history is factored in.

 

You guys are truly delusional with all this "Angelo would have drafted an OL with the first round pick traded away for Cutler" nonsense.

 

And, you sir, are delusional to say that he wouldn't. Look bud, noone is saying that he absolutely would have taken, but but to suggest that he wouldn't when the guy just took a LT prospect is just wrong.

 

Really, you cant say either way, so all of this fortune telling you are trying to do is moot.

[madlithuanian]

Not sure there's a soul here that doesn't agree with that...

 

Here is the bottom line,

 

I want wins. How many wins has Cutler cost the team with his turnovers this and last year?

 

 

If that dipsh*t simply throws the ball away instead of lobbing a 85 yard pick six to Hall we win the damn game.

 

[madlithuanian]

The org sticks with him through his contract.

 

The fans are already on his case justifiably.

 

There have been rumors that the D is getting fed up...I think if the losing continues in the fashion they've been losing, give it to about week 12, and you'll see the D give up.

 

The new org will keep Cutler. There's too much upside. A coaching staff worth its wieght can figure out a way to make him work. Cowher turned Kordell into a playoff QB...he can certianly do so w/ Cutlet. McDaniels is a douchebag of the highest order...I trust nothing that guy has done.

 

It's not that I agree or disagree with this monster of a thread I've created. It was simply- how long will the organization stick with him? When do the fans start letting him have it like Grossman? When do the players give up? If a new regime comes in, will they want to keep Cutler and have HIM lead the team in a Super Bowl quest (McDaniels obviously didn't in Denver)? Just food for thought..

 

[Lucky Luciano]

Yes it was consistent and efficient. 12 int's is definitely more efficient than 26 int's from Cutler. It was consistent. Cutler had 19 td's to 25 picks going into the last 2 games which he blew up with 4 TD's a piece. That's the definition of inconsistent to me. You don't know whether your QB is going to throw 4 int's or TD's each game.

 

neither *years were productive or efficient, they were both less than average. but i have to say, we regressed from a very bad '08 offensive line to basically a semi-pro, horrific, milestone bad, offensive line in '09 and '10. in these environments no qb can play well.

 

When he throws deep more often than Orton, yes it matters. If you look deep first and inaccurate, it matters more than a QB that rarely looks deep and relies on short throws to move the chains. Look at the one drive that actually worked Sunday. He wasn't doing his norm and throwing deep, he got hit less, took less sacks, and his inaccuracy with the long ball didn't end in wasted downs. He played an ortonesque drive and had success, compared to Cutleresque the rest of the game.

 

1. in this day and age the short dink and dunk throws without being able to go deep will not win you superbowls. you have to be able to shoot it out with qb's like manning and brees and be able to score quickly. otherwise we will end up with defenses playing us 8 and 9 in the box without fear of getting burned. this means your running game is at a clear disadvantage, not to mention your short passing game is doomed to failure. anytime you get behind 10 points or more in a game with time fading you have to be able to open up the field with a real threat that your qb can make completions 15-20 yards or more.

 

2. just to be clear on this subject... cutler does NOT have control over calling audibles at the LOS. he also does NOT have the ability to let his receivers get deep because he is either sacked or running for his life. and he does NOT appear to have any quality receivers to help him out in any type of pattern.

 

I agree many picks should have been invested in the line over the JA Era that wasn't. Yet, the first round picks are the ones you need to spend on the line. How many starting linemen came out of the 2nd 3rd and 4th round that year that should have been picked? I'm sure sure there was a few, but the true talent, especially at tackle, is found in the first.

 

here is how i see the draft which differs from your point of view...

 

LT - usually this is the most important position on your offensive line and the hardest to find a quality player. i agree, usually if you want to draft your good+ LT you should expect to do so as high as you can get or trade up to into the top half of the 1st round.

 

RT - i believe that generally the slots to look for these players is the bottom half of the 1st round or throughout the 2nd round. sometimes you can find them in the lower rounds and groom them over a period of time. but, a safe bet is where i have stated.

 

also a number of RT's show up when teams draft for LT's and they don't turn out thus pushing them onto the right side kicking up the slots where they were initially drafted. john tait is a very good example of this. that said, there are always exceptions to every rule (a killer sure thing RT may go very high if the need is there for a team finishing out their OL or have extenuating circumstances like a left handed qb).

 

G - rarely are guards, unless the need is desperate or the player is exceptional, drafted higher than the 2nd round. you should be able to find good+ starting quality guards in the 2nd, 3rd, or even the 4th round (if you plan on grooming them behind an active player). unlike us, we draft them in the 6th or 7th round and expect them to start or flat out cut them.

 

Which is my point, when I say I didn't feel the addition of Cutler wasn't worth the talent that could be added to make this team better. There wasn't much that could have really been added this year giving the options, but yes JA was dumb in neglecting the line, as he was for giving away 3 high draft picks and a starting QB for Jay Cutler.

 

i still believe the trade was justified for what we gave up. plus i also believe we could have filled out at the very LEAST our guard and center problems over the last 2 years drafts if angelo wasn't a complete idiot. like i said before, we pissed away TWO 2nd round draft picks over the last 2 years that could have been the difference on how this offensive line is playing in a huge way for the next 10 years. instead we ended up with players like igleasius (sp) or j. gilbert. players that not only we don't want but anyone else.

 

Simply yes. Orton has 11 TD's over 2100 yards and only 4 int's. I'm sure they aren't thinking wow I wish I had Cutler. QB isn't their problem this year.

 

hmmm... then why did they draft tebo in the 1st round? if you are happy with your young qb why would you waste a first rounder on the same position?

 

Yes that's how you can beat QB's but not all play bad as Jay in those situations. That's where reading your defenses, moving players, knowing how to hit someone fast instead of holding onto the ball or making bad throws becomes important.

 

hell our tackles aren't even recognizing potential defensive problems/blitzers right in front of them. the qb has to tell these players who to block? isn't it just common sense and their basic job to do this? how many times have our tackles let players lined up to their outside shoulder go by untouched while they are double teaming a defender with the freaking guard?? it's mindboggling.

 

it has tons to do with there being NO place to go that our qb doesn't have rushers knocking him down. left, right, front, behind, take your pick. there is nobody or side of the line to trust that they can hold a block consistantly long enough to give him enough time to do anything. that means the clock in a qb's head is virtually useless because he can't anticipate the time to do anything.

 

look, i know you have been an advocate for drafting offensive linemen over the years like me and think our drafts have been bad to say the least. so we are not that far off from each other. it is your belief that orton (whom i did like, just not compared to the potential talent we could get out of cutler) would have been the best option in chicago and i have no problem with that. we just have opposing view points which is cool and i can live with that.

 

*2008

rushing attempts: 434 attempts (15th in nfl) for 1673 yds (24th in nfl)

passing attempts: 528 (14th in nfl) for 3061 yds (21st in nfl)

1st downs: 264 (27th in nfl)

yards per play: 4.8 yds

5 games passed for 200-299 yds

1 game passed for 300+ yds

5 games rushing 100-199 yds

1 game rushing 200+ yds

 

2009

rushing attempts: 373 (ranked 29th in nfl) for 1492 yds (29th in nfl)

passing attempts: 563 (8th in the nfl) for 3473 yds (17th in nfl)

1st downs: 262 (25th in nfl)

yards per play: 5.1 yds

7 games passed for 200-299 yrds

2 games passed for 300+ yds

7 games rushed for 100-199 yds

0 games rushed for 200+ yds

 

 

['TD']

 

neither *years were productive or efficient, they were both less than average. but i have to say, we regressed from a very bad '08 offensive line to basically a semi-pro, horrific, milestone bad, offensive line in '09 and '10. in these environments no qb can play well.

 

The line Orton played behind in 2008 was horrid. They got rid of alot of the starters, not because they were past their prime or shouldn't have been playing. A lot of what Orton did was basically what you saw in the one successful drive last week, dropping the ball off fast. The line looks worse than last year with basically the same players but an offensive scheme that plays away from that style. I do not think this line is worse then last year. This offense just shows how bad they are.

 

 

1. in this day and age the short dink and dunk throws without being able to go deep will not win you superbowls. you have to be able to shoot it out with qb's like manning and brees and be able to score quickly. otherwise we will end up with defenses playing us 8 and 9 in the box without fear of getting burned. this means your running game is at a clear disadvantage, not to mention your short passing game is doomed to failure. anytime you get behind 10 points or more in a game with time fading you have to be able to open up the field with a real threat that your qb can make completions 15-20 yards or more.

 

I completely dissagree. I've seen very few shoot out superbowls in my lifetime. While me have one or 2 recent ones fresh in my memory, that isn't the norm. It's a game where everyone puts everything on the line, but if it works in the regularseason, it will work in the super bowl.

 

2. just to be clear on this subject... cutler does NOT have control over calling audibles at the LOS. he also does NOT have the ability to let his receivers get deep because he is either sacked or running for his life. and he does NOT appear to have any quality receivers to help him out in any type of pattern.

 

 

 

That depends on who you listen to, lovie or Orton. The question wasn't asked in depth when asked to both. You can't tell me if he sees an uncovered guy that will be sacking him, that he can't talk to Olin to shift the line, forte to make sure to pick up the blitz, or notify the WR that will be open to be ready for that hot route. The Quality of recievers are nothing better than Orton had, and he played better his last year than Orton has to this point as a Bear. Hester in at this point in his career, Aromashodu when they let him Play, Knox that's on Pace to be the Bears first 1000 yard WR since Booker in the early 2000's, Chester Taylor when he plays, Forte in his 3rd season. Olsen this far in.

 

Orton had Marty Booker the year before his career was over and didn't do much, Brandon Lloyd that could make the hard catch but not the easy seemed to give up, made it in the coaches dog house and missed games even after he was healthy, Forte in his rookie year, Olsen not nearly this far in, and so on.

 

 

here is how i see the draft which differs from your point of view...

 

LT - usually this is the most important position on your offensive line and the hardest to find a quality player. i agree, usually if you want to draft your good+ LT you should expect to do so as high as you can get or trade up to into the top half of the 1st round.

 

RT - i believe that generally the slots to look for these players is the bottom half of the 1st round or throughout the 2nd round. sometimes you can find them in the lower rounds and groom them over a period of time. but, a safe bet is where i have stated.

 

also a number of RT's show up when teams draft for LT's and they don't turn out thus pushing them onto the right side kicking up the slots where they were initially drafted. john tait is a very good example of this. that said, there are always exceptions to every rule (a killer sure thing RT may go very high if the need is there for a team finishing out their OL or have extenuating circumstances like a left handed qb).

 

G - rarely are guards, unless the need is desperate or the player is exceptional, drafted higher than the 2nd round. you should be able to find good+ starting quality guards in the 2nd, 3rd, or even the 4th round (if you plan on grooming them behind an active player). unlike us, we draft them in the 6th or 7th round and expect them to start or flat out cut them.

 

I agree with your point of view on the draft position of players. I just disagree on that that is JA's point of view. He should have went for guards then but he didn't. He also didn't have the flexibility to find those players when he knew he was going to let Ogunleye and Brown leave at DE. Once you give away the picks he did, you have to replace them, even if he valued his picks at DE over what he could find for the OL at that poin in the draft.

 

i still believe the trade was justified for what we gave up. plus i also believe we could have filled out at the very LEAST our guard and center problems over the last 2 years drafts if angelo wasn't a complete idiot. like i said before, we pissed away TWO 2nd round draft picks over the last 2 years that could have been the difference on how this offensive line is playing in a huge way for the next 10 years. instead we ended up with players like igleasius (sp) or j. gilbert. players that not only we don't want but anyone else.

 

I am glad you think the trade was justified, It gives us something to discuss since we disagree, which is awesome. It's better than we all agree it was right or woung, and gives us something to discuss, especially on a bye week like this. I disagree on the C problems over the last few years tho. From what I saw last year, Kruetz was trying to help and over compensate for the lack of talent around him which made it look for poor play from him. I haven't had time to review the line play this year like i did last, but I don't think C is a problem at the moment and probably the solidest spot on the line this year and last.

 

hmmm... then why did they draft tebo in the 1st round? if you are happy with your young qb why would you waste a first rounder on the same position?

 

 

No one knows Tebows future and their fans didn't draft him. McDaniels did. It's not an indictment on fans that watch all their games on TV or Orton. Drew Brees went through a similar situation. His team questioned him and drafted a QB that sat behind him a few years before they decided it was time to move on to Rivers. Since then they have arguably been top 3 or tops in their respective divisions.

 

 

look, i know you have been an advocate for drafting offensive linemen over the years like me and think our drafts have been bad to say the least. so we are not that far off from each other. it is your belief that orton (whom i did like, just not compared to the potential talent we could get out of cutler) would have been the best option in chicago and i have no problem with that. we just have opposing view points which is cool and i can live with that.

There are places, there are WR's open, he just needs to exploit it when teams blitz and hasn't been able to since the cowboy game