Call me crazy...

[Alaskan Grizzly]

josh mccown is a good backup qb in this system and that is all. you do not want to base your franchise on this qb.

 

(deleted for content)

 

sure anything can happen but realistically mccown is fools gold that hit on one game and now everyone wants to pencil him in as a possible replacement starting qb in chicago. he is doing what he does best... backing up a real starter.

 

As I suspected, you didn't answer my question. Too much hypothesis on my part and the situation at hand. All the rest of your answer is fluff because I won't argue the point that he is a BACK UP QB. I never said he is a starting QB, although he will be when the Bears play next against the Packers. But he's not a true starter....again, I will agree this point. I also never said that I think the team should invest in him as the starter, your words...not mine.

 

The bolded above, are your words. Don't know that I've seen anyone here say what you suggested. I know I didn't. Again though, the fact is he is now the starter.

[madlithuanian]

Really, isn't anything the team does qualify as "betting the franchise". Any significant move or non-move can be boon or bust or breakeven...

 

quote name='bear trap' date='Oct 22 2013, 10:42 AM' post='126698']

Further... why would going in a different direction be betting the franchise??? Cutler has a history of injuries now... broken finger, knee, groin, and concussion... if we decided to go in a different direction i would not consider it betting the franchise cutler does a lot of good things but he also does a lot of bad things... he sure as hell wasn't worth the price we paid as far as I'm concerned... if we did move on what's the drop off??? One more int a game... highly doubt it... this yr he's done decent but then again we haven't played a really good team yet other than cincy...

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

well, here are some qb's that did pretty well with an injury history:

 

tom brady - nagging shoulder injuries throughout his career.season ending mcl / acl knee injury 2008, shoulder finger rib injuries in 2009, shoulder foot injuries 2010, knee injury 2013 (he is now 36 years old),

 

peyton manning - season ending SERIOUS neck injury - knee injuries, gluteal (what ever that is)

 

joe montana - neck surgery 1986, sciatic nerve problems from back injury, there were only 3 seasons montana played all games in a season due to injuries.

 

i could go on and on with this but the fact remains nearly all good qb's suffer from injuries and play on to have excellent careers.

 

First I would like to say how thrilled I am at seeing Jason egging you on. That makes my day.

 

Anyhow, you really don't support your arguement because I was discussing the injury (pulled groin) in particular with this particular player. The history of other players with this injury, even as of late, has proven difficult to rebound from. Throw in the fact that Cutler is 30, has been 'abused' and considered "mobile" could all correlate to him not being the same as he was before. I appreciate that all these other illustrious QB's suffered their varied maladies but that isn't pertinent to the discussion here.

 

The common head cold will affect you and I differrently and assuming we did the same job, perhaps affect how we performed in that job. If you have the flu and I rhumatoid arthritis, again our performances would be affected differently. For the sake of this discussion I am speaking specifically to this injury, that is the point.

 

concussions are a serious concern but nearly every player in college and the NFL has suffered concussions or is at risk every single play. nearly all the stats for concussions in the 20th century were never even reported. a qb is at far less risk than a running back, wide receiver or tight end. where is the concern for resigning marshall or jeffries?

 

Emphasis on the bold: Yet Cutler has a HISTORY of concussions. In some cases moreso than do several RB's, TE's and other players. As far as concern in signing Marshall or Jefferies, not part of this discussion and totally different subject. Stay focused.

 

degraded from what? you can't SERIOUSLY consider the previous years in chicago as any litmus test to judge his talent. i emphatically state... tom brady, peyton manning and any qb you can THINK of would have looked bad or been on IR continuously in the criminally negligent system we ran in chicago under lovie smith!!!!

 

You almost support my point of our earlier discussion by bringing these statements to light. I wouldn't go as far as categorizing it as "criminal" but whatever floats your boat. Ironically, Jason and I have disussed many a times on whether the Oline was deficient in protection or was it Cutler's need for being mobile that caused him to be hit so much. I said that he has always been a mobile QB (Vanderbilt, Denver and Chicago). His point; the oline was always garbage. I will say Cutler has talent, there is no devaluing that. Unfortunately I think time is now his enemy.

 

you don't agree with the progression of this year. hmmm.... the line we are sporting is not stellar but it certainly is a giant improvement over our past years cutler was in chicago. that said, where are they rated in the NFL at this time as a unit? individually? does that mean long is a bust? how about mills? etc. etc. etc.

 

Oddly enough this very thing (line rating) was discussed in another thread. And from my recollection, the current line didn't fare well. And there is a discussion that the current line is progressively backsliding, to which I would agree. But again, not the point of this discussion. Cutler is regressing. Or at least times he is. Two games this year he had mutliple turnovers (I think at least three minimum). In those two games, against Minnesota and NO(?) two of those turonvers resulted in direct points. The other turnovers were interceptions where in most instances the teams have been inept to convert the turnover to points. But the fact that Cutler continues to have these "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde" games make him unpredicitable and unstable to stake long term trust in. That paired with what is clearly a history of injury, could result in his not returning.

 

 

 

[Lucky Luciano]

As I suspected, you didn't answer my question. Too much hypothesis on my part and the situation at hand. All the rest of your answer is fluff because I won't argue the point that he is a BACK UP QB. I never said he is a starting QB, although he will be when the Bears play next against the Packers. But he's not a true starter....again, I will agree this point. I also never said that I think the team should invest in him as the starter, your words...not mine.

 

The bolded above, are your words. Don't know that I've seen anyone here say what you suggested. I know I didn't. Again though, the fact is he is now the starter.

 

ok i 'think' i get what you were asking before.

 

it was such a poorly written question (."What say you IF McCown has as much if not better success for the time he fills in?") using a quote from me that was to another members post about KIRK COUSINS. i assumed you were talking about "plugging" in mccown and support mccown as our starter if he does well. ok, my mistake. so much for the "fluff" huh?

 

now i will answer the other side of that question...

 

no, it does NOT mean that any ham & egger quarterback can come into this system and perform as well or better than a high quality player no matter how well mccown plays (even with the gannon effect there is no time for mccown to have a career long enough to work in chicago).

 

there is no system i know of or have ever heard of that can do that. if it were so then every team would do it and forget about paying out the big bucks to the brady's, manning's and brees quality qb's. that is why 'potentially' elite qb's 'usually' go in the top ten of the draft.

 

[Lucky Luciano]

Anyhow, you really don't support your arguement because I was discussing the injury (pulled groin) in particular with this particular player.

 

other injuries not pertinent? don't you even read your own posts??

 

Some of his other injuries; finger, knee etc by themselves are not factors. But they do add up. And you're right, he has taken a pretty good lickin since playing in Chicago. But what has that done to his overall health?

 

now let's get to the rest of it....

 

The history of other players with this injury, even as of late, has proven difficult to rebound from. Throw in the fact that Cutler is 30, has been 'abused' and considered "mobile" could all correlate to him not being the same as he was before. I appreciate that all these other illustrious QB's suffered their varied maladies but that isn't pertinent to the discussion here.

 

do you even have a clue as to what you are talking about? it is not even serious enough to require SURGERY!!!!! will it take time to heal? YES!! will he be 100% this season? NO!! does that mean his career is done? NO!!!

 

he makes a living throwing the football, NOT running. he is not bobby douglas, he is not mike vick, he is not randal cuningham. he is a passing qb who can scramble well, period.

 

per the chicago tribune...

 

"An MRI exam revealed Cutler has a torn groin muscle. Briggs, the anchor of the defense, has a small fracture in his shoulder, the team said.

 

Regarding Cutler, Trestman said, "I'm only confident by what they've told me. This is a minimum of four weeks. Then he'll be evaluated week to week. ... Four weeks is a reasonable start. And then it'll be week to week. I'm encouraged by the prognosis."

 

i guess you know more than the rest of the world.

 

you mentioned the history of players with this injury has proven difficult to rebound from... name me some players in the NFL whose careers ended because of a groin injury. name some whose careers were never the same afterwards. name a single qb whose game was never the same after a groin injury. don't have any?

 

do you realize peanut has had a groin injury almost all season? i guess he is done too? or is that just quarterbacks?

 

The common head cold will affect you and I differrently and assuming we did the same job, perhaps affect how we performed in that job. If you have the flu and I rhumatoid arthritis, again our performances would be affected differently. For the sake of this discussion I am speaking specifically to this injury, that is the point.

 

what the hell are you talking about?

 

Emphasis on the bold: Yet Cutler has a HISTORY of concussions. In some cases moreso than do several RB's, TE's and other players. As far as concern in signing Marshall or Jefferies, not part of this discussion and totally different subject. Stay focused.

 

so what is your point? nearly every nfl player suffers concussions in their careers. is it somehow different with cutler?

 

joe montana - suffered many concussions one memorable concussion required hospitalization in 1987

 

New York Times: "Joe Montana, the San Francisco 49ers' quarterback who was knocked unconscious in the 49ers' 49-3 loss to the Giants today, was kept overnight for observation at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan."

 

You almost support my point of our earlier discussion by bringing these statements to light. I wouldn't go as far as categorizing it as "criminal" but whatever floats your boat. Ironically, Jason and I have disussed many a times on whether the Oline was deficient in protection or was it Cutler's need for being mobile that caused him to be hit so much. I said that he has always been a mobile QB (Vanderbilt, Denver and Chicago). His point; the oline was always garbage. I will say Cutler has talent, there is no devaluing that. Unfortunately I think time is now his enemy.

 

yea it was cutlers "need" to run. it certainly couldn't have been anything to do with our offensive line...hahahaha

 

what ever credibility YOU thought you might have had just went down the crapper.

 

i'm done with you.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

what ever credibility YOU thought you might have had just went down the crapper.

 

i'm done with you.

 

Lucky, as before its been a pleasure. To see you flummoxed because of a little adversity always humors me.

 

I was all set to continue the back and forth and discuss the rationale of our opposite views, but since "you are done with me". So be it.

[Chitownhustla]

well, here are some qb's that did pretty well with an injury history:

 

tom brady - nagging shoulder injuries throughout his career.season ending mcl / acl knee injury 2008, shoulder finger rib injuries in 2009, shoulder foot injuries 2010, knee injury 2013 (he is now 36 years old),

 

peyton manning - season ending SERIOUS neck injury - knee injuries, gluteal (what ever that is)

 

joe montana - neck surgery 1986, sciatic nerve problems from back injury, there were only 3 seasons montana played all games in a season due to injuries.

 

i could go on and on with this but the fact remains nearly all good qb's suffer from injuries and play on to have excellent careers.

 

 

 

concussions are a serious concern but nearly every player in college and the NFL has suffered concussions or is at risk every single play. nearly all the stats for concussions in the 20th century were never even reported. a qb is at far less risk than a running back, wide receiver or tight end. where is the concern for resigning marshall or jeffries?

 

 

 

again, if you do some research nearly every player in the nfl including qb's has a shopping list of injuries. again i will say a qb SHOULDN'T take the same kind of abuse a running back or wide receiver takes and without the moronic clowns we had as a gm and coaching staff here anymore it looks a lot brighter for any qb in our system to avoid injuries.

 

 

 

degraded from what? you can't SERIOUSLY consider the previous years in chicago as any litmus test to judge his talent. i emphatically state... tom brady, peyton manning and any qb you can THINK of would have looked bad or been on IR continuously in the criminally negligent system we ran in chicago under lovie smith!!!!

 

you don't agree with the progression of this year. hmmm.... the line we are sporting is not stellar but it certainly is a giant improvement over our past years cutler was in chicago. that said, where are they rated in the NFL at this time as a unit? individually? does that mean long is a bust? how about mills? etc. etc. etc.

 

cutler is yet AGAIN learning a completely new system under a new head coach and OC. he has played in SEVEN games under this new system and you don't think he was progressing fast enough? what are his ratings compared to the rest of the NFL?

 

these stellar qb's everyone brings up in the media have had years working their coaching staffs and usually very good offensive lines that have worked together for YEARS. there is only ONE player on our line that was here from last season.

 

finally... cutler is cutler. you are going to get the INT's along with the stellar qb play, that is just the way it is. all-in-all he is a GOOD+ qb that has the potential to be EXCELLENT with good players around him and competent coaches.

 

note: JERRY ANGELO had to know this when he brought cutler to chicago and gave up TWO first round draft picks to get him!! yet the gm and coaching staff did absolutely nothing to protect him, give him weapons or give him any chance to succeed in chicago. it was a freaking joke and lovie smith and jerry angelo share the blame and shame.

 

EDIT: i have to comment on your honda accord statement. what exactly do you consider an upper tier qb?

 

when cutler left denver he WAS an upper tier qb in his PRIME who had an excellent arm, very good accuracy and was able to scramble with the best of them and was selected to a PRO_BOWL. in my book that's a ferrari and you can put your honda analogy out there but it is WRONG.

 

we did NOTHING to improve this qb through coaching. we did NOTHING to protect this qb from injury or damage. we did NOTHING to supply him with weapons to be successful. we just kept drafting defense and garbage to keep lovie and angie's jobs secure at the expense of a qb who potentially could have been the best in chicago maybe EVER.

 

 

I agree with you.... You can't compare Cutler to a Honda Accord. An Accord can't do the things top end cars like Ferrari can do. Cutler has shown he can make every throw and then some.

 

I would compare Cutler to a old muscle car, when he is ON he is ON. When he is off he is way off.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I agree with you.... You can't compare Cutler to a Honda Accord. An Accord can't do the things top end cars like Ferrari can do. Cutler has shown he can make every throw and then some.

 

I would compare Cutler to a old muscle car, when he is ON he is ON. When he is off he is way off.

 

Fair enough. I actually like your anaology better. Especially given the "off" comment. Think of it as a clogged carb type of off.

[bear trap]

ok i 'think' i get what you were asking before.

 

it was such a poorly written question (."What say you IF McCown has as much if not better success for the time he fills in?") using a quote from me that was to another members post about KIRK COUSINS. i assumed you were talking about "plugging" in mccown and support mccown as our starter if he does well. ok, my mistake. so much for the "fluff" huh?

 

now i will answer the other side of that question...

 

no, it does NOT mean that any ham & egger quarterback can come into this system and perform as well or better than a high quality player no matter how well mccown plays (even with the gannon effect there is no time for mccown to have a career long enough to work in chicago).

 

there is no system i know of or have ever heard of that can do that. if it were so then every team would do it and forget about paying out the big bucks to the brady's, manning's and brees quality qb's. that is why 'potentially' elite qb's 'usually' go in the top ten of the draft.

 

Okay.... the entire point of this thread was to bring light to a possibility... that possibility being what if the bears don't bring cutler back next year... ... what an option could be... which is why i suggestrd that maybe they could throw a third rd pick at Washington AFTER the season... it was in no way bashing cutler or even suggesting cousins is better... just an option... i would not be surprised if they don't... as mentioned previously... the system trestman runs doesn't req. a brady or manning... and where we got all caught up was you blasting on all the cutler haters out there... but here is the facts: cutler IS NOT even in the same conversation as the bradys or mannings or rodgers... let alone in the same category... yet your post says that clubs don't get rid of the bradys or manning... last i checked cutler isn't considered in their class... so i really don't think if the organization decides to move on that it would be the be all end all... cutler is a decent quarterback with a rocket arm and poor decisions in pressure situations... he has had some good decisions but has really had a lot of game killers... that's the ugly truth!

[bear trap]

Also i realize that his injuries are common but the fact is now ccutler has gone down yet again ... last year he broke a bone in his hand... then there was the famous knee in the championship game... now this.. and on top of all that add in how many concussions? You may say every play gets concused and its part of playin football butthis is a different time now in the league... it is very alarming how many times he's been concused... what happens if he gets another one? No big deal??? Go ask javid best that...

[Guest TerraTor]

this season is toast.

 

i wouldn't give up ANY draft picks for anyone unless it is a player in his prime with an up future and not a QB. we will need them for next season.

 

Agreed. Our draft picks are already spent on a new set of safeties and DL

[Lucky Luciano]

Okay.... the entire point of this thread was to bring light to a possibility... that possibility being what if the bears don't bring cutler back next year... ... what an option could be... which is why i suggestrd that maybe they could throw a third rd pick at Washington AFTER the season... it was in no way bashing cutler or even suggesting cousins is better... just an option... i would not be surprised if they don't... as mentioned previously...

 

i never had any problem with what you said. at this point in time i don't agree or disagree IF this franchise gives cutler his walking papers what path to follow.

 

the system trestman runs doesn't req. a brady or manning...

 

first... what exactly is trestmans "system"? i can say that at this point in time i don't know. he has no body of work as the man calling the shots in the NFL and has only played out 7 regular season games in chicago. all this with an offense that is comprised of a group of players who mostly have never played together. thus his "system" may look entirely different after this season. in fact his "system" may never even work.

 

second... i very much disagree that a system like trestmans (a version of the *west coast offense?) doesn't require a good + quarterback or better. yes even an elite qb to run it the way it is supposed to be run to have superbowl caliber success. do not believe anyone that says otherwise.

 

the proof of my statement is well documented starting in the early 90's in a bill walsh's system run by the 49ers after his departure. the quality of that system was emphasized by joe montana (an elite qb) and continued to the late 90's with steve young (another elite qb). after young's retirement they went with lesser quality qb's and basically faded into mediocraty.

 

* some are saying the system we are running is a version of the west coast offense.

 

where we got all caught up was you blasting on all the cutler haters out there... but here is the facts: cutler IS NOT even in the same conversation as the bradys or mannings or rodgers... let alone in the same category... yet your post says that clubs don't get rid of the bradys or manning... last i checked cutler isn't considered in their class... so i really don't think if the organization decides to move on that it would be the be all end all... cutler is a decent quarterback with a rocket arm and poor decisions in pressure situations... he has had some good decisions but has really had a lot of game killers... that's the ugly truth!

 

i am not some blinded cutler fan that even remotely believes he is of the same quality as a peyton manning or tom brady or joe montana. the chicago bear franchise made absolutely sure of that after taking a quarterback with all the tools and all the potential to be in that category and running his career into the turf (literally) for FOUR YEARS with horrible management and even worse coaching.

 

what i do believe is that despite what was done to him he is still a GOOD+ quarterback with that ugly word 'potential' to become EXCELLENT if trestman is half of what he is touted to be. that is why to me it is imperative this franchise moves forward with him until there is a time when we can actually draft a qb in the lower rounds that we can be assured of is at least of that quality by grooming him over a period of years and then make the decision of which way we want to go.

 

right now it can't happen unless we go all in for this seasons draft and move up into the top 10 and draft a high potential prospect. we CAN'T afford to do this at this time because we have so many serious holes to fill on defense and even a few on offense because of poor past management drafts. we are locked in. that is the ugly truth.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lucky Luciano]

Also i realize that his injuries are common but the fact is now ccutler has gone down yet again ... last year he broke a bone in his hand... then there was the famous knee in the championship game... now this.. and on top of all that add in how many concussions? You may say every play gets concused and its part of playin football butthis is a different time now in the league... it is very alarming how many times he's been concused... what happens if he gets another one? No big deal??? Go ask javid best that...

 

i can assure you i am not trivializing concussions in the least. but it is the reality of professional football and the players accept that risk for large amounts of money. in fact i read that peyton manning himself purposely had a low score on the concussion test just so it would not effect his playing time because of it in the future. what does that say to you? how many has he had?

 

is it a risk? yes for every player. but it is their choice to take this risk unless we flat out ban the game because of health and safety concerns. if they did that i could live with it. could you?

 

next... you mention how many concussions cutler has had is "alarming". exactly how many has he had and how serious were they? how does it compare to the rest of the league for players in every position?