BearFan PHX

A scientist gathers data and draws conclusions. A lawyer starts from a conclusion and then looks for data to support it.

it feels like youre trying to say that youve caught me in some inconsistency. But this is the same thing Ive been saying all along. It is POSSIBLE that a new coach will unlock Fields, he has talent, but based on years of film going back to college, he continually displays a huge hole in his game which is a fatal flaw so I dont believe it is LIKELY. Thats not a contradiction. it's just the truth of the matter. But more to the point, why are we trying to prove each other wrong, rather than discussing football?

20 is generally too early to take a center, but its where im seeing that JPJ guy going in some updated mocks. But you said take best OL avail, so if its an OT or OG thats cool too. Plus we dont even know yet what we're gonna get in free agency. Maybe by the draft some more positions on the OL will be filled.

Yeah I have since found it on youtube, and he was very confident in his voice. and he said that all you need is two teams that want him to bring the price to that level, and of course thats right. Another first round pick is greatly welcome! Maybe we could get that center near pick #20 or so if its not a high pick. Bears offseasons have felt like video games the last couple of years!

theres a difference between the #1 overall pick, and a first rounder. If that's what you were saying? to the point of whether Justin sucks or not, I think we all know he is a tremendous athlete. He has a GREAT arm. He's accurate, throws the long ball. Hes a hard worker, a great leader, he improvises really well. Hes exciting to watch and sells tickets. All that is true and those are reasons why other teams may wish to try to make a reclamation project out of Justin. And we also know that Justin has a big shortcoming in that he doesn't read defenses well, doesn't pull the trigger on open receivers and does most of his best work after he's broken the play and is improvising. Somewhere there are coaches that think they can break him of that habit. I doubt anyone thinks they are going to win a superbowl with Fields unless he does fix those issues. But Nagy couldn't unlock him, and lost his job. Getsy couldn't unlock him and did lose his job. Eberflus almost (perhaps) lost his job too. That's why he sucks, and why he is interesting to some teams. It's why some people want to trade him and others want to keep him. It isnt that one or the other is wrong, theyre both true. But you know all of this of course already.

WOW. If that happens then someone is definitely putting their money where their mouth is on Justin. I guess you would need to have two teams that felt that way, because if it was only one, then the price wouldnt go up to a first. That's very good news. I wonder where he will land.

that's extremely interesting. do you know where he said it? id love to hear it in context. He's usually right and doesnt just put out rumors.

sounds like a ton of fun - please try to see how Caleb is socially with the other QBs - like do they initiate conversations with him, does he initiate with them, do they laugh together etc.

someone posted a link to a former Jets scout who worked under Parcells and he thinks Caleb is a bust and Rattler is the man of the draft. It might have been adam who posted it? If Im wrong, whoever posted it, please take credit. I found it here from one of you guys. He likes Milton and Daniels too. Milton is very interesting to me. I need to watch a lot more film next month. https://firstroundmock.com/2024/01/shocking-2024-nfl-draft-board-released-quarterbacks/

Yeah, Ive been seeing his name all over. Im intrigued, but Im wary of saying ahything about any of them until i watch about a million Youtube predraft videos that havent even been made yet. Especially long all 22s that show a game and not just highlights. But he's a perfect example of a guy who could be the best one in the draft (some say), but isnt getting enough love, although it is starting to come now. Every year in March and April QBs rocket up the board as the hype rolls in. And sometimes, it's right! It's gonna be a dynamic ride for sure. Is Caleb that much better that the fighting for slots 2 through 5 are where the chaos will stay, or is stuff yet to come out that's gonna throw this all into question. And if it does, how do we know it's not smoke from Washington wanting us to pass on Caleb for example. Fun stuff.

I think there are a bunch of really intriguing QBs in the draft this year. I wouldnt be 100% sure that JJ McCarthy isnt gonna come into the league and ball out, but of course the likelihood of that is less than some of the bigger names. And you're right about making them work for it. If you've identified that Bo Nix is the cream here for example and everyone is missing it, then there's no particular reason to take him at #1 and miss out on Caleb Fever trade downs. Then again, you don't want to lose him to another team that might be thinking the same, so it's about balancing risk and reward. It sure ain't easy. Luckily Poles seems to excel at this kind of analysis. He plays the draft very well. The key is going to be the QB analysis and grading that goes on at Halas Hall. I don't mind taking the #2 guy from a list that our scouts say are both Tier 1 similar prospects, and getting some draft value in return. There's so much chaos in QB outcomes, that if you have guys ranked in the same neighborhood, taking the lower one makes a lot of sense. But if in the end Williams really is in a stratosphere of his own, then we should just thank the football gods that he is available to us, and take him at #1.

love these contrarian articles. theyre so helpful in trying to get a handle on what's true and what isn't pre draft.

Predicting what Poles WILL do even based on informed opinions is difficult. You never know what someone is thinking. But what Poles SHOULD do seems really clear. At least as far as keeping Fields as the presumed starter is concerned. The Caleb Williams question is murkier, although I think in time that will become clearer too as more film and info are available to us. There's a lot of Fields love out there, and I think it's more fan thinking than logical. The guy is super likeable, incredibly athletic, and kind of an underdog. I get why people root for him. But as we've said a million times, there are gaping holes in his game, and they are right in the core competency for quarterbacking. We might keep Fields, but we need to draft a high pick rookie QB with the idea that he is the probable starter when he's ready. But I dont think Fields is particularly suited to the "temporary vet who guides and then makes way for a rookie" role.

Adam Schefter is usually pretty reliable. he's not a clickbait guy, and he is a true insider reporter. "ESPN insider Adam Schefter appeared on The Pat McAfee Show, where he explained the belief around the league is Chicago will draft Williams with the first overall pick." "the feeling around the league seems to be that they’ll wind up trading Justin." https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/adam-schefter-widespread-consensus-that-bears-will-draft-caleb-williams-at-no-1/ar-BB1hODaX

yeah all good points, and they go to the question of who you think Williams will be. i sure dont have an answer to that question, but if I dont think he's gonna be a HOFer, then the trade is an easy option. But if he is one of those rare QBs, he's worth 6 or 8 first rounders. And i wish to hell I knew which he is gonna be.

Dude, Im not beefing with him, he was scolding me yesterday saying that the only reason I feel like i do about Justin is that Im a hater and have it out for Justin. And we had very nice interactions at the same minutes on other threads. Im not looking to antagonize him at all. And it didnt make me "mad," but it was an ad hoc attack, so i said so, just to rebut the point, not because my honor was offended or anything weird like that. Then today hes all "oh the fighting" and i thought that was hypocritical, since he was just doing it yesterday. Fighting passive aggressively is still fighting. And I want it to stop as much as you do! What you dont know is I wrote a really nice letter to him a couple weeks ago. He read it, but didnt respond. And hes been saying whatever about me since. So I dunno, hes mad at me, and being passive aggressive about it. I always got along well with him here too - at least 15 years. probably a lot more, from the old site. Its all because Im TOO sure of myself about Justin Fields. It's offending people obviously. But that's crap. I'm not trying to talk about anything except criticisms of where we disagree about football. And it all comes because he didnt like what happened with Stinger. Ok I get that. I still would have done what I did. But I'm not trying to keep any of this alive. Once we get past Fields, Im not even sure of anything. Nothing I write on any it is so sure of myself or anything. No one can predict what will happen with the rookie QBs. I'll tell ya what. I wont comment back about any personal comments for 24 hours. Ill talk about football, but ill give anyone that needs to say whatever nasty thing they want to about me 24 hours to do it and I wont ever respond to anything they say during that time. I'll give everyone the last word. And then, please lets get back to just critiquing me on film or stats or whatever.

One other point to help explain. I am not sitting here angry thinking people are attacking me. I am debating football, and people make arguments, and some of the arguments are pointed at my character, and Im not mad about THAT either! Im just saying, that's not a good argument, and not why Fields sucks. Im not feeling attacked and fighting - Im just saying "thats a bad argument" and "thats an adhoc attack so its not a good argument" thats all Im not like seething that anyone would say that i hate Justin, Im just saying thats not a good argument.

Thanks. He attacked me yesterday, not today. Today he was saying that he didnt like the fighting, which i thought was hypocrticial since he was part of it yesterday. But I dont think I need a timeout. I think we should ALL just keep our comments to football. Specifically, that I dont hate Justin, or have a personality flaw that is the reason why I think we have to move on from him. If people stopped saying that, then I wouldnt have to keep saying i dont hate Justin, and Im not attacking him. I also think it depends on the tone of voice you read the writing in. if you read it angry it will sound that way, but Im not angry. Read it more rolling of eyes, and then youll hear what Im actually saying here?

I dont think Maye's experience or coaching is anything like Trubisky's. By all accounts he's a really good prospect. There is some narrative that he lacks some spark of leadership or momentum in the game in clutch moments. I dont know if that narrative is true. Im looking forward to all the pre draft film on youtube. But Maye is Maye, whoever that is, and i wouldnt worry about the Trubisky comparisons. He[s just got his own stuff to like and wonder about?

it all depends on who you think Caleb can be for the Bears I guess. You're not wrong that trading down and gaining a package like that would be franchise altering. And you could trade it down again too and it starts to look like Madden or the draft sites how silly it gets except in this case, it's actually real. So there is a great argument for what you're saying. Assuming you think really well of one of the other QBs. But if you really believe Caleb could be a Hall of Fame QB and win multiple superbowls, then it's worth the price. But who knows? I guess you try to put a percentage on it, and weigh the options. This is a defining moment for the next decade+ of the Bears, and it's a really difficult question to answer. I guess the best thing to say is all the options don't suck, so we're sitting pretty no matter which way it goes.

It might be insane, and the report might be reaching too because Washington hasnt done anything yet BUT there are teams dumb enough to trade multiple first rounders away. We used to be one of them! I am secretly hoping that when I see the predraft film, that I start to believe that there is more than one tier 1 QB in this draft. If we could trade the #1 pick down, and grab a great QB at 2, 3 or even 9 then the legend of the Carolina trade would continue to grow like a weed. That would be amazing! Imagine having 2 picks in the first round in 2025 and 2026. All for passing on Bryce Young. BUT if on the other hand, I come out of it thinking that Caleb is the next big thing, then Im gonna be thrilled the Bears will finally have that guy at QB. Either way, that has to be the mission this year - get that QB who can take you to the promised land. Everything else is icing, but dang there sure is a lot of it on the potential table isnt there?

There is an article in the Tribune today that says we could trade one spot with Washington, and get two more first round picks in exchange. We give a little more too, and we get a little more too. I think if the Bears identify another QB they prefer, or they think Caleb isn't gonna pan out, this is a great way to address all the arguments wanting more picks, without having to pass on taking a top pick rookie QB. If on the other hand, your scouts are telling you that Williams is the real deal, and head an shoulders above the others, then it's probably not enough. I do think it's telling that if Washington was willing to do that, they'd be saying they DO think Williams is worth that price. Anyway, its too early for me to have an opinion on Williams, but it was interesting to see what is thought to be offered, while still being able to take a top QB too? https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nfl/chicago-bears/bears-mock-draft-poles-passes-on-caleb-williams-trades-no-1-pick/537419/

All Im saying is you alternate between complaining about the fighting, and then yesterday, being a full participant. Then today youre the voice of reason above again. And its ALL silly. All we have to do is talk about football. I respond, but Im not out there making purely personal posts. I mostly talk about film, and Justin's shortcomings etc. Then when someone like Stinger says some personal nonsense, then i expose the illogic in the arguments. I would call that debating. Go read the posts. I mostly say stuff is stupid when i think it is. Im not calling people names out of the blue. Im either talking football or saying that arguments are illogical, or saying "dont be personal" And Im done pretending otherwise. If ANYone has a disagreement with me, thats awesome fun. I love debating. No one here has to pull any punches about how they disagree with me about football. That never upsets me. But when you start trying to discredit some fact Ive posted based on "Im just a hater" or some other thing that isnt about xcoverages, or film, or Justin's timing, but about my personal psychology - well its ridiculous. And I think Im being misunderstood here too - Im not "mad" steam isnt pouring out of my ears when i type these things. Read them again with more of a tone of "ugh this is SO dumb bleh" and youll hear it the way Im writing it. I may be frustrated, but Im not angry. Not at all. I think you might be mistaking me destroying moronic arguments about Fields for being mean. Im not mean. Im just winning on that subject too much. So please, bring whatever football facts, corrections etc. None of that makes me mad. The only thing that would make me mad was if we brought back Justin and didnt draft a rookie QB. Then Id be mad. And not at anyone here. P.S. I have no dogmatic ideas about any other QB candidates. After I've done my work I might have a favorite, or many favorites. I might think someone sucks. But I wont have 3 years of NFL tape on them. I will know that I dont KNOW anything about who will do what in the NFL. It's just Justin. We're so far past the decision point, and the people who dont see it cant understnad why the people that do are SO over it. It aint ego - it's a year too late already. The experiment has been over for a while. Its CRAZY.

Lets just move on to choosing Justins replacement. That is nothing but opinion, and no one has 3 years of failed NFL tape to be sure about anything. Im sure not sure about any of the prospects in this draft. We could just talk about it like men.

OK. I think complaining about people disagreeing about JF is squabbling too. YOu keep acting like because we dont share your view, that we must be jerks and were fighting. Dude, its YOU thats fighting everytime you say that. Yesterday you posted a whole thing about how Im closed minded and just hate Justin and that's what motivates me. I KNOW JF is a bust. That's not rude or mean. Stop trying to pretend it is. I've had it with the personal attacks. Im not gonna just sit by while you act like youre the teacher and anyone that disagrees with you is some kind of baby that needs a scolding. Cut it out. Stinger does nothing but personally attack people. That I actually fought back is your problem. Im not the only one he does this to either and you know it. And since you keep jumping into it, youre one of the participants, not the referee. So stop pretending youre the good guy. Justin Fields doesnt need anyone here to protect his feelings. This is sports talk.It's perfectly fine to say that he is a bust. I write long specific posts about facts and theories about FOOTBALL, you choose not to read them because you say they are too long, and then pretend that it's just fighting. Stop it. For example, this post wouldnt even exist if you hadn't brought it up. That was your choice. Either dont do it, or dont be surprised if it gets an answer. Sheesh. This whole Justin Fields thing has gotten insane. And not just here, but all across the internet. Justin fans are just SO butthurt their guy didnt pan out. Well he didnt. Deal with it. Its not OUR fault that he didnt develop. Were not bad people because he didnt. Learn how to lose an argument with grace would ya?