nfoligno

2007 Dan Bazuin DE Central Michigan - the guy hasn't even had a chance to play wait and already he didn't work out? Michael Okwo LB Stanford - same boat as Bazuin Josh Beekman G Boston College - same boat as Bazuin Aaron Brant T Iowa State - oh, a 7th round pick didn't work out... cry me a river. You can't declare players a bust after one year. What a terrible example I am not saying they are busts, but only that they have yet to prove themselves. Bazuin hasn't had a chance, but hasn't done much w/ his chance thus far. Okwo? Per the reports, he has been passed up on the depth chart by Roach. Beekman. Not the same as Bazuin IMHO. Bazuin is stuck behind a group of VERY good veterans. We are desperate at OG, and Beekman is loaded w/ opportunity. Brant may be a 7th rounder, but again, at a position we are desperate at, and the opportunity is there for him. ----------------------- 2006 Danieal Manning DB Abilene Christian - still a solid backup and special teamer. Certainly not what we had in plan, but still an assett to the team Dusty Dvoracek DT Oklahoma - wow, because he got injured it's JA's fault? Actually, in the time DD has been healthy, he has been our 2nd best DT Jamar Williams LB Arizona State - he's one of our top special teamers and could easily start on several teams. Wow, what a terrible example J.D. Runnels RB Oklahoma - wow, a late round FB didn't work out Tyler Reed G Penn State - hey, for a late round pick, he's still around Come on an DM. He was the top pick in the draft, and the player we traded out of the 1st round for. He has not earned his draft position. Regarding Dusty, when has he been healthy? I like him, a lot, but until he can prove himself, how can we say he was a good pick. Regarding Williams, how can you say he would start for several teams? I agree his situation is not the best, due to the veterans in front of him, but the reality is, what has he done? Regarding Runnells and Reed, why do we pick in the late rounds if they are so worthless? ----------------------- 2005 Cedric Benson RB Texas - can't blame JA for this pick. Have you seen what the other options that year have done Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma - showed flashes, but not living up to his early 2nd round selection Kyle Orton QB Purdue - I'd have to say this was one of JA's better picks. Do you expect all second day QB's to be Tom Brady? Airese Currie WR Clemson - a late round receiver who didn't pan out. Yipee. Chris Harris DB Louisiana-Monroe - he was a key starter for us and is an excellent starter now for Caroline. What the hell are you smoking by listing him? In fact, the mistake was trading him. Rodriques Wilson DB South Carolina - a 7th round linebacker who contributes on ST and is a solid backup is a bad pick? Seriously, WTF are you thinking? Can't blame Angelo for Benson? If not, when can you blame a GM for a player being a bust if not for a top 5 pick turning out as bad as Benson. Again, you seem to value later picks pretty light. Why even draft if there is no expectation for them to develop. Further, why do we continually trade down to stockpile late round picks if they are so worthless? ----------------------- 2004 Tank Johnson DT Washington - Was a solid starter for us and you can't plan on him having an arsenal of weapons in his house. Leon Joe LB Maryland - a 4th round LB who was a solid contributer on special teams for a couple years Claude Harriott DE Pittsburgh - a 2nd day DE who didn't work out, yeah, JA should be fired Craig Krenzel QB Ohio State - a late round QB who actually had to start for us for a little bit his rookie year, yeah Alfonso Marshall DB Miami (FL) - a late round DB who didn't do anything, STUPID PICK! Hell yes I can blame Angelo for Tank. Character concerns dropped him in the draft, and we took a risk anyway. It blew up in our faces. Again writing off 2nd day picks. ----------------------- 2002 and 2003 hardly count as that was when Jouran was still calling all the shots. We disagree Angelo wasn't calling the shots. We absolutely disagree there. And if that is the case, then I guess we do not count players like Brown, Tillman and Briggs in the good draft pick column. I suppose Jauron gets credit for them, and not Angelo? I doubt you would say that. nfoligno, wtf were thinking when you made that post? Those were the worst examples I have ever seen. Sorry, but the meer fact you place no blame on Angelo for taking Benson, not to mention pretending DM was a good pick, says everything of your objectivity.

One. I am not saying players taken a year ago are busts, but meerly pointing out players who have yet to prove much of anything. I didn't list Wolfe for example. He hasn't proven much, but at the same time, has shown quite a bit of good. Others I listed have not even shown that much, thus why they make the list. I am also not saying these players can't still develop, but only that if you look at them today, they have yet to. Two. I simply listed every round. Misses in the 7th obviously have less meaning than misses in the 2nd or 3rd, but I simply listed all picks. Where would you like me to cut it off? If I simply listed top 3 rounds (first day picks) others would question leaving out the 4th, which is often a key round. Point is, everyone can question where the cut off would be, thus why I simply listed every round. While the list w/o question has its share of late round picks, there are more than enough 1st, 2nd, 3rd and even 4th round picks to consider as well.

Dan Bazuin DE Central Michigan Jury still out No argument, but the point is, he has not stood out of yet. Josh Beekman G Boston College Started last game and did well Yes, but at the same time, I would point out he is only getting a look due to injuries, and the staff sure doesn't seem to want to play him at OG. Danieal Manning DB Abilene Christian Still on team and SP He was our first pick in the draft. We traded out of the 1st round, supposedly w/ him in mind all along. Simply being on the team and on special teams doesn't cut it IMHO. Dusty Dvoracek DT Oklahoma Jury still out Sure, the jury is still out, but 2 years of nothing but injury, and a 3rd year that has seen him miss camp thus far w/ injury doesn't put a good light on him. Jamar Williams LB Arizona State Looked ok starting in place of Hilly I would agree he is in a tough position, but the fact is still that he is nothing but a backup. Tyler Reed G Penn State - Still on team Deep depth, and considering how weak we are on the OL, he has no excuses like Jamar Williams. Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma Still hanging in there Come on. Highest drafted WR and has done little. In fact, many think he is on the bubble. Kyle Orton QB Purdue Still thereand mya start I like Orton, but would argue that with our QB issues, he has not stepped up to the point of truly putting value at his pick, though he has a much better chance to change his grade than most. Chris Harris DB Louisiana-Monroe - Starter For who? Not us, and that is all that matters. Rodriques Wilson DB South Carolina Looked pretty good playing middle LB Again, for who. If not for us, can we say it was a good pick. Tank Johnson DT Washington Starter for Dallas Sorry, but there were character questions in the draft, which is partially why he fell to where he did. We took a chance, and it blew up in our faces. He may be a good NFL player, but not for us. For us, he was a circus show. Leon Joe LB Maryland Playing for Detroit Bust for us, and again, that is all that matters. Simply drafting good players is not enough if they are not good for us. Claude Harriott DE Pittsburgh Playing for Detroit See above. Rex Grossman QB Florida Maybe starter again and took us to superbowl 1st round QB who is expected to be a franchise QB, and is in a camp battle w/ a 4th round pick. Todd Johnson DB Florida Playing for St louis Bobby Wade WR Arizona Playing with Minn Vikes Justin Gage WR Missouri Playing for Titans See above comments. If they do not develop for us, then what good is their draft pick. Marc Colombo T Boston College Starting Tackle Dallas Same ol same ol. Gotta start for us, or they were not a good pick. If Benson goes on to start and be good for another team, would you then say he was a good pick for us? Its one thing if you look at Berrian, who was good for us before moving on, but I think most every guy you have pointed out playing for another team was jack for us, and that is what matters. What did they do for us. Terrence Metcalf G Mississippi Slated to start untill injury Man, come on. He has stunk. The point is not that Angelo has been w/o any good picks, but I personally believe his great drafting is a bit over-hyped. Not bad really, we always coulda done much worse. But overall not bad.

I don't know. On one hand, I hate to IR a guy who could be back and (a) develop, ( produce. At the same time, I hate wasting roster spots. I also hate to cut young OL. If Oakley, Reed and the rest are just garbage, fine. But at the same time, you hate to give up too soon on young OL. Regarding Beekman, I wondered the same, but he did look pretty good in the game. Granted, its one game and against what could be one of the worst DLs in the league this year, but still, he did seem to hold his own. That very well could give some credence to comments about him we have heard. W/ Beekman, I think we have a classic example of the staff being questionable in player evaluation. It appears they simply do not like him at OG due to his height. They didn't give him a look last year, and didn't seem to plan to give him one this year until injuries forced their hand. Now, that they were forced to move him over from center, it seems like he may have some potential at OG. Makes me think of Hass. A player who could have potential, but the staff just doesn't seem to want to give him a chance due to his lack of speed. Sometimes, I just wonder how much the staff get in the way of player development.

Okay, as a coach, I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject. It is one of my BIG "issues" w/ the staff and how we do things, and only got to be bigger after an interview I heard last year. Listening to the Score last year. Idonije was on and asked if they ever stunt in games, or even practices stunts, misdirection, or anything of the like. After a bit of a pause, as the question took him off-guard, he said no. He them seemed to try to explain his way out, by saying how our line is so good, we don't need too and how we can rush straight up. Well, after his interview was over, there were a couple ex-bears on the show who gave their opinion. Damn me if I can recall who the bears were, but they were not no-names. Anyway, they went to town on this. They talked about how when you have a DE rush to the outside everytime, you make him very predictable, and easier to block. How you can have a pro bowl DE matched up w/ a mediocre LT, and the LT is more likely to win the battle as they know what the DE is going to do. They can simply focus on pushed the DE further outside and out of the play. They spent quite a bit of time ripping the staff on this, saying its a miracle our DEs can get as much pressure as they do. It has always driven me nuts how Brown would take such wide angles to the QB, but then I would realize he wasn't the only one, and it was more likely the staff. Then I saw Anderson as a rookie mix it up as a rookie. Then as a 2nd year player, given the starting job, he was just like Brown always taking that outside edge. I guess I assumed that as a rookie, he was more doing what came natural to him, but once made a starter, the coaches got their teeth in him and killed him. That is why I have hope w/ him, as I saw some of the old moved from him the other day. Anyway, just curious of your thought as this has always bugged the hell out of me. We base our entire scheme on the front four getting to the QB, but at the same time, we seem to handcuff the DL.

Agreed all around. One thing I think we have to remember is, Tait pretty much sucked at LT last year. As he is getting older, I think it not out of the question to simply assume age is sapping his quickness. He is likely fine on the right, but the left side is another story. IMHO, there would have been FAR more talk about Tait's play last year if he were not lined up next to Brown and Metcalf. Agreed that while our left side may look flat out ugly, at least we should have a right side we can rely on. If we need that 1 yard on 3rd down, we have a side we should feel confident going too. Move Tait back, and instead of one good and one bad side, we end up having two questionable sides. And I am not sure what Miller would help. Adding him only means we have to move Tait, which again, isn't a good idea. He isn't even great depth, as he is strictly a RT and nothing more. What we do need though is an OG. I would say if a LT were available, we could add that player too, but LTs are rarely available at the beginning of the offseason, much less just before the regular season begins.

Just curious. What player are you thinking of we traded for in the past who the team was trying to unload for those reasons?

You mentioned before we weren't going to use him on special teams since when we used him in the wedge, teams would always try to kick to him. But won't we still use him on ST's when we kick-off & punt? He's always been a stand-out in that capacity. But now he has gained 30lbs. I know they talk about how he hasn't lost any speed, but come on. He goes from 265 to 305, common sense says he is not going to get downfield as quickly. Maybe he still has great burst, but no freaking way you are going to tell me he can run a 40 (much less an 80) as fast. While the 40 may be a joke for the most part, this may be one of the few areas it is legit as you simply take off and run as fast as you can downfield.

I disagree. We have him signed for 5 years. Why would we rush him back for half the season? My guess is that we're saying, "We'll keep him on the 53 man roster, he'll be back!" as a PR move. We'll wait and see what happens. Re-read what I said. I talked about HIS rushing HIMSELF back. Players tend to do that. Players who were 1st round picks w/ high expectations can tend to do that even more. I think for the first couple weeks we can give up that roster spot. This would do two things: 1. Wait & see how Williams recovery is coming. By September 15th we ought to have a pretty good idea as to his progress and whether or not he'll be able to return. 2. Weeks 1 & 2 the injuries typically aren't that bad, so the roster spot is not as critical. Um, aren't the injuries already pretty bad? Williams and Metcalf are both out. Kreutz missed quite a bit of time. Maybe we have time to wait, but then again, if we are going to eat a roster spot, does that also not mean we are not going to add a player? Not that I want Miller, but I'll take Brown or Bentley. Either way, We have almost a month until our first game. By then we might decide to IR him anyway. As said above, my concern is that if we do not IR him, we will not add a player either.

Hey, it isn't like I think he is a stud. But I think Idonije is like AP in Lovie's eyes. The issue for me is, we simply have too many questions in our trenches to consider lightening the depth chart there.

I'll see your hand, and raise you: Marc Colombo, Roosevelt Williams, Terrence Metcalf, Michael Haynes, Rex Grossman, Tank Johnson, Cedric Benson, Mark Bradley, Danieal Manning, Dusty Dvoracek

Before you get too down on him for that, you are describing 99% of what I see our DEs do since Babich took over. Frankly, I think it is Lovie, but also think Rivera was able to keep Lovie from totally killing our players.

- I think Mark Anderson is going to have a big year this year. I also like that they are moving him around. He nearly got a sack playing LDE for Wale. Pitting his speed against RTs may not work on run downs, but I like the matchup on passing downs. Agree. The only bad thing was that he missed that sack. Bazuin looked like trash. From the left side, the QB ducked under him. I winced at that, though it was still a solid move to get to him. On the right side though, he had used an inside move and was in the QBs face w/ a raised hand as the QB threw it away. For me, the main point w/ Anderson is this. Two years ago, Anderson was utilizing a full bag of moves. Last year, he was a one trick pony (speed to the outside). I blame coaches for the change. The other night, I saw the rookie Anderson again. - McBride is having a bad game too, both in coverage and special teams. Agreed. He was beaten like a drum. I didn't think Tillman looked good either. Couple plays Tillman looked weak, but I didn't think he truly stood out. Also, just to point out, he has missed a lot of practice. Some sort of "personal issues" which everyone has been VERY tight lipped about. Anyway, maybe it is an issue, but I am simply a bit less concerned. Re: Olsen - I know he wasn't known for blocking at Miami, but at the same time, it is a concern when a guy in his 2nd year still looks poor. Also, I am of the opinion (right or wrong) that blocking is 90% attitude. Olsen is big enough, and as I understand, strong enough. But for blocking, is he mean enough? Also my fav QB now is Hanie. Orton and Rex both looked ok. I chuckled when Orton threw it on the ground while scrambling. Its like Rex and Orton got together before the game and switched brains. When Orton broke out of the pocket, I was thinking, "hell yea". Then he put it on the ground, and I was thinking, "you got to be kidding me". Of coarse, Rex falling on his arce ranked right up there too. Seriously, do either of these two want to win the job? As for Hanie, I liked what I saw, but as he was going against future burger flippers, I have a tough time jumping to too high of expectations. One guy to watch is Kruetz. On two pulls on sweeps, he fell down and then blocked nobody. He also whiffed on a screen that Forte got destroyed on. Its the same stuff I saw last year. He really needs to step it up this year and not rely on his reputation. Didn't notice that, but not going to argue either. On one play, I did notice he was late on a pulling assignment. Still not sure how much is he has lost it, or how much is recently coming off injury and/or having to try to do too much. Maybe he has simply lost it, but w/ so many other problems on the OL, I think we will have to just get by w/ whatever he can give us. One good thing was Beekman. He looked better than Metcalf. I saw Kruetztry to help him in pass protection twice and he didn't need the help. Also I saw him running downfield trying to get blocks for the RB's. Good to see someone developing. I thought he looked pretty good too. Couple things. One, while it is good to see someone developing, what does it say that the only reason our staff is giving him a shot in hell is the GREAT Metcalf was injured. Two, the staff fear his size (6'2). I have never been too big on that. A little smaller means better leverage. But if Rex starts, we also have a short QB, and a short OL often allows a DL to stay high enough to (a) hinder the view and ( create a high wall where a passing lane should be. Monk and Bennett were terrible on that last drive. And Bennett would have scored because Monk threw a great block that sealed off the edge. Only glass 1/2 full thing I can say is, at least they are rookies. Others do not have a similar excuse.

2003? Bad 1st, but Tillman and Briggs after that. Scott was a solid starting DT for us. Gage and Wade were far from great, but I would argue played well for 5th round value. Getting a couple pro bowl players, and numbers others who started for the team, well, I am not sure that draft can be written off as among the worst.

2001? A-Train was offensive ROY. Gandy was a very good starting OG. Coaches never should have tried him at LT. Rest were crap, but I am not sure I would say disaster. Plenty of other disaster years to choose from.

Have you been drinking? "one of the few" that didn't workout? 2007 Dan Bazuin DE Central Michigan Michael Okwo LB Stanford Josh Beekman G Boston College Aaron Brant T Iowa State 2006 Danieal Manning DB Abilene Christian Dusty Dvoracek DT Oklahoma Jamar Williams LB Arizona State J.D. Runnels RB Oklahoma Tyler Reed G Penn State 2005 Cedric Benson RB Texas Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma Kyle Orton QB Purdue Airese Currie WR Clemson Chris Harris DB Louisiana-Monroe Rodriques Wilson DB South Carolina 2004 Tank Johnson DT Washington Leon Joe LB Maryland Claude Harriott DE Pittsburgh Craig Krenzel QB Ohio State Alfonso Marshall DB Miami (FL) 2003 Michael Haynes DE Penn State Rex Grossman QB Florida Todd Johnson DB Florida Bobby Wade WR Arizona Justin Gage WR Missouri Tron Lafavor DT Florida Joe Odom LB Purdue Brock Forsey RB Boise State Bryan Anderson G Pittsburgh 2002 Marc Colombo T Boston College Roosevelt Williams DB Tuskegee Terrence Metcalf G Mississippi Bobby Gray DB Louisiana Tech Bryan Knight LB Pittsburgh Jamin Elliott WR Delaware Bryan Fletcher TE UCLA

I am watching the game again (man I love DVR) and a few things. - McGowan and Briggs are really standing out is poor angles and tackling. I want to write it off as 1st preseason game, but as this was such an issue last year, and something we were supposedly working so hard on in camp, it does concern me. One area McGowan is looking good. He is making a few really good plays in the backfield. So when he is going downhill, he is looking good. If he is not attacking the LOS though, he simply seems late and is taking bad angles. - Cut back running is killing us. I believe this is a problem of old for us. We are aggressive up front, and collapse the area the RB originally is heading. But LJ makes a cut and turns the other way for a big opening. It isn't so much their OL is simply beating our DL, but our DL is beating itself. As for pass rush, KC is keeping extra blockers back nearly ever down. As we are not blitzing, that means they are using 6 or 7 to block our 4, thus why we are not getting a ton of pass rush early on. - I think Mark Anderson is going to have a big year this year. I also like that they are moving him around. He nearly got a sack playing LDE for Wale. Pitting his speed against RTs may not work on run downs, but I like the matchup on passing downs. - McBride is having a bad game too, both in coverage and special teams. - News flash. Daniell Manning still sucks. I still can't believe the way he played the punt which was rolling near the goal line. Most would try to simply swat it back. Not our boy. He jumps on it, easily carrying it into the endzone for a touchback. Bonehead. - Olsen just does not look very impressive as a blocker. He gets his hands on a guy, but he is led wherever the rusher seems to want to go. If the rookie can develop as a blocker, and brings size and speed to the passing game, is there a chance he could pass our 1st round pick? I have read about Olsen dropping passes in camp, and if his blocking is suspect too.......

Ignore. Rookie mistake - Double post.

I would call Idonije a lock. Lovie loves him as much as AP. Remember, we matched Buffalo's offer sheet to keep him, and he has been more productive since then. We have a lot of players at DT, but too many question marks. You talk about Dusty, but what has he done besides pull splinters out of his arce. I like him, and his potential, but... Harrison is a rookie and Adams is not a player I think the staff loves. Then factor Harris' injuries over the last couple years. I think we are simply most likely to over-load at DT to due to injury issues, as well as unproven players. Also, I do not think DL would be the area we sacrifice a roster spot for the OL. DB, LB, FB would be my initial thoughts. Or the staff could go w/ one fewer OL. It may also depend on who we can get on our practice squad.

Actually, I remember KJ pretty well that draft. His pre-draft 40 times were actually very bad. I remember because he exemplified how stupid I think the 40 is. There was no questioning his speed in college, as he blazed on the field. Hell, I think he was a track guy. But when he ran the 40 for scouts (3 different times) he never broke 4.5/40. I remember how he started dropping down the draft board, like his 40 meant he wasn't fast, despite his college play. So w/ KJ, its a bit tough as he simply is faster than his 40 times reflected.

I think that is why I think I IR him. (a) If we don't, I fear his being rushed back. Not just by the team, but how about by himself. How much might he rush his own rehab in order to get back? As much as many want him back this year, I think we should be far more concerned about his career. ( Can we afford to simply give up a roster spot? W/ all our problems on the OL, can we afford to play a large part, or even the majority of the season, light at depth. This goes back to my issue w/ this staff. Most in the world know you hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. Listening to the staff talk, I just feel like they were expecting/planning on the best case scenario, and if that doesn't come about, well, they will deal w/ that when it happens.

I assume he created a new thread, then something happened to negate the thread (maybe someone else created the same thing), and edited his thread after.

Good catch. If Hass can play some special teams, that would go a long way toward his making the team. Still, at who's expense. Despite what some want to argue, Booker is a lock, as are Hester, Davis, Bennett. I would not say Lloyd is a "lock", but I think it VERY unlikely Hass would make the team over him. So it is basically Bradley v Hass. Statistically, Hass had 1 for 8 and Bradley had 1 for 7, but I think everyone here would agree Hass' reception was FAR more impressive. I also have to wonder how much more Bradley was on the field. I just hit play, as I too recorded it. I watched it once, but it was late and I was speeding through it. Now I am sit and focus better.

Didn't KC go to their 2nd string QB before we pulled our 1st string defense?

Wow. All that from a one word post:)