HoofHearted

Not going to disagree with this, but I will contest WR being our biggest need. Hester improved every week down the stretch, and while we really don't know what Bennett can be as a pro, I am confident in his ability after seeing what he did at Vandy with and without Cutler. So there is some nice promise there. Of course it would be nice to replace Davis with someone who can actually catch the ball, and I'm not a big fan of Aromashodu or Rideau. However, at least Davis showed he can separate while dropping those passes, so that is something to keep your head up about, and to me, Shodu is basically like drafting an athletic freak WR like Wallace or Murphy at this point. I look at FS and see a guy who proved his blowiness in N'leans, a second year player who has trouble staying healthy at CB and wonder how moving him to the more physically demanding safety position is going to help that, and a guy who should be a backup SS at best in Steltz. Things aren't looking even close to promising at FS to me. I'm also a fan of Beekman, and really don't understand why Omiyale is taking his spot and not competing at RG with Buenning (moving Garza to a definite backup role that he has so greatly earned, lol). Yes, he blew some big blocks like the one that would have sprung Forte for that short TD against Minny where the tides turned, but he also showed a lot of promise a pulling/trapping guard. He was the only guy on our OL last year who I trusted to pull outside or actually get out in front of plays and block up field. Let the guy develop and I bet we have a real solid interior Ol on this team. Let him rot on the bench and he MAY turn out to be Olin's successor.

Unlike Hester, Murphy had an entire career at WR to blow up, and unfortunately it never happened. I will admit that the guy has some flashes where he straight up dominates a good DB, but those things happened like once every five games and he'd just go back to the twilight zone the rest of the game. I haven't seen Tebow play TE because he hasn't yet played it. Sure he's got the heart and head, but I'll wait until he actually plays a spot to say he can be a helluva player there. I'm sure he'll find success doing something in the NFL, in fact I think the guy should stick at QB and actually leanr how a pro QB plays rather than make his one read, dumpoff, or takeoff (it was the same thing I criticized Alex Smith for coming out of Urban Meyer's system). No, because I think we could get a better and more sure player elsewhere with the 49 pick. If one of the top 7 don't fall to 49 (and I highly doubt they will get that far) then I think we should look elsewhere. I don't like drafting for need just for needs sake, it's a rather myopic way of looking at the draft. Now tell me that we are going to grab the BPA of WR, FS, DE, OL, or even LB and I'll be a happy man, because that means we will get a lot closer to grabbing the true BPA on our board. Personally, I think with our situation we will without a doubt wait on an upside/developmental OT until 4/5/6, which is great because the draft is absolutely loaded with those guys (Caldwell, Murtha, Gardner, Vollmer, Lang, Bell, Bright, Walker, Cadogen, Goldberg, Reynolds, Roland, McKee, Ramsey, dyke Louis). That means FS, WR, DE at 49 should be the way to go, IMHO. Of course if a guy like Unger, Meredtih, or Wood were there, I wouldn't object at all.

I bet Thomas comes off the board a lot earlier than you'd expect. I don't read much web scouting, but I am a long-time member of cds and their database is the biggest around. I do a lot of opinion sharing with the other guys there.

I have always maintained that Bruton was the better safety with a much higher potential than Zib when both were roving NDs defensive backfield. I talked elsewhere before the Combine about how I completely expected an awesome display of athletic ability from him, and I wasn't disappointing. I like him a lot as an upside/development player at FS, but he does have one big flaw which is his poor angles to the play. I wouldn't mind him one bit at 99 if we can't anage to get Johnson or Delmas at 49. I would wager to say we are looking at some guys like him and McBath in rounds 3/4. I'm really not a big fan of Ramses. I think some fans are just too impressed by a guys physical stature on paper that they ignore all the other stuff. Take Mike Williams for example, was one of those huge guys who kills it in college, and everyone loves his size and hands, but they don't see that he wasn't a good route runner and didn't get much separation. Instead relying on his using his body to create room for the catch, which won't fly enough against pro CBs, especially when you can't separate at all from them with your agility or savvy. I kept hearing about how Ramses had good Shrine week, but I saw a guy who didn't separate at all from defenders and had to rely on using his body way too much. I won't go as far as saying big=good in college, because you still have to have some skills to go with that, but when I see a guy like Ramses/Turner/Jarrett who is dominating guys almost completely with his body and nothing else, I have to say that big WRs are the most overrated prospects coming out of college. Not to mention Ramses was playing way inferior competition while blowing peoples minds with his paper numbers. I don't WANT another >6' WR, and I certainly want size added to the position, but I'm never one to say, "We need to grab this guy, look at his size, it's what we are missing." Heck, I LOVE Mike Thomas and the guy isn't even 5'8". The difference I see with him is a great ability to separate, awesome quickness, hugely underrated strength, and a very well built body. He also has surprisingly big (and good) hands for his height too (9.5"). He will have to earn his way up from a returners role and people will try and label him a slot man, but he showed a great ability to play outside in college. I know there is another Arizona football guy here, and I'm sure he can attest to how explosive Mike can be. It's hard for me being from ASU to like a Wildcat, but I just couldn't help but be impressed by everything he did on the field, especially considering his size.

That's all pretty much the truth. However the thing with Hester that makes me say they jerked him around was how he was handled from the get-go. it's obvious he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but even so, you let a guy with his talent get more than one season to learn the WR position if you intend to use and develop him as a positional player. Miami didn't. He had a hard time learning the position, and almost immediately pulled him away and just stuck him on the bench to sit until he could return kicks or run the occasional go-route. Next Spring they figure, "maybe he'll be better at CB since he can just learn technique, play M2M and use his instincts out there." Well, not a bad idea really, because he was pretty good there with 4 picks while playing largely as limited liability a NB. Even with him showing some signs of success and ability to stick there, they decided to toss him at RB because they felt they weren't using his talent enough, and thus began the "slash" experiment with him. Even then, not so bad because all he had to do was run the stretch and toss plays around the corner and make people miss. Then came 05' Spring and the staff has him running at WR again to go along with and CB and HB in drills, again, not even once did they give him a full year to concentrate on one spot. Yes, his ability to learn positions played a big factor in it, but how exactly does taking his concentration away from one position maximize a players ability to get on the field and make an impact to their highest potential? I honestly think Miami was too worried about using him in any way possible because they wanted his talent out on the field, and they completely neglected to "dig in" and actually teach the kid a position. It was a winning program that wanted to win, and it's obvious they felt getting him on the field was a must if they were going to be successful, but doing what's best for the program and what's best for the player got skewed with such a talented kid, and I honestly can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I knew I would only have him for so long (or short).

Louis Murphy, yay! Another guy who loves to drop passes and had minimal success in a fantastic system. More often than not, those workout warriors with limited success in college end up doing dick in the NFL. Heck, we already have one on our team (Aromashodu). Tebow would be the #1 if you like QBs who can't read the field, or play as a pocket passer. And Bradley is now a Chief who didn't do much of anything for us (and this is coming from a guy who hates that we cut him). Some guys get picked because of their size/speed measurables, but you have to do something special in college to get picked that early. His tape around the injury wasn't awesome, but it wasn't bad at all, and unlike Mark, Mass isn't a workout warrior. I loved Devin coming out of college. The guy never found a spot, but he was dynamic and played well in small stints everywhere his coach put him, all while being jerked around from position to position. Some guys just ooze that game breaking football player feel while being phenomenal athletes, and to me, he was that guy from the second he stepped on the field in Miami. I loved it how the people here all hated that pick, too, all the while jizzing themselves over Sinorice Moss. When you get a shot at those dynamite guys who could explode with another year in college, you take the shot.

Like I said, I don't think Martin is worth a second, it was just to point out how low I value Mass. Our pick should be BPA/need blend, and you're right we shuld just hope it comes down to WR/FS there. I just don't think the top 7 WRs get there, and after them I see a slew of guys who should be third rounders and one late second in Iglesias. Here's my problem with Mass. Ask any Bulldogs fan, and they will tell you Mass is largely inconsistent in every way possible. They will also tell you he had four monster games that made up more than half of his yards, and that disappeared pretty much completely in the rest of the games. Those four huge games were all against horrible CBs, and no, he didn't go up against Haden or Lindley, Green did (just like he went up against most teams #1 cb all year because he was the far more consistent game-breaker at WR for the dogs). Speaking of Green, it wasn't until the frosh superstud arrived to play accross from him that Mass did anything worth noting. His first three years were totally uneventful, and marred by bad drops. What about his college resume tells people he is worth a first day pick other than four huge games against bad 1-1 comp with a phenom throwing him the ball?

When did I get all high and mighty? When did I call myself an expert? Seriously, am I coming off as a jackass who needs to be treated as such? I am saying that there are 7 WRs I would take for our pick, and 8 who should go in the first day, and that mass is not one of them IMHO. I am saying that compared to the value of the 2/3 FS in the draft, Mass's value even dives further. I am saying that Mass has one good year under his belt, and still struggled to get separation. I am saying that I think the 2/3 FS is a better pick for our team there than the 8th best WR, who I still don't consider to be Mass (Iglesias in case you care). So get off your high horse and read my comments as they were written, by a guy who watches a ton of college football and actually knows these prospects casting an educated opinion, especially to the guy calling me out who doesn't even know who Sherrod Martin is. The same guy who thinks it is a must to grab a WR at 49 regardless, and the same guy who claimed every expert in the world thinks Mass is worth a 2nd. Kiper's mock and opinions have proved to be slightly more valuable than the paper they were written on over the past five years. This is the same guy who said Mike Williams would without a doubt be the best player to come out of the 05' draft ten years down the road? You're right, we can't tell the future, but we can base a logical opinion on these players as they are based on what they have done on the field, and Mass hasn't ever put the impression of being a first day WR in my head based on what he has done thus far.

I said there are only eight WRs worth first day picks, and Mass IS NOT one of them, IMHO. Just because Kiper's whack -ass draft says he is the eighth guy off the board doesn't mean it is fact. The experts say there will be nine drafted, that's fine(big friggin whoop I say eight), there probably will be because of teams reaching on the player they want, it doesn't change the fact that from all the college football I watched (a lot) that I don't see a guy with a first day grade on the field. Why is it essential when that 8th or 9th best WR isn't nearly as good a value as say that second or third FS. It's not about drafting for need and just grabbing a guy there for the sake of grabbing him. It's about calculating value and grabbing THE RIGHT GUY in the right slot at the right position, by blending need/BPA. Just because we need a WR, doesn't mean we need to grab a WR at 49, especially not if his value isn't worth that pick. Mass' value, is not even close to worth it, IMO. BTW, saying WR is our biggest need is subjective and debatable. I personally think getting a quality FS prospect from the draft is a bigger need because I think our WR group has a chance to be at least adequate whereas our FS group is barfalicious. Yes, Sherrod Martin WILL get drafted (very likely inside of the first three rounds), and the fact that you don't know that he is a top 10 CB OR FS prospect in this draft shows how little you know about this draft and college football. It really seems that you are just going off The Hair's draft and only know the big school guys. I really don't need to continue on after this display of your draft knowledge, but I will anyway. Every expert, huh? I see him listed as Gil Brandt's 87's best prospect, the experts at draftcountdown have him as the 127th best overall, cds has him going at 94 and is out of their top 100, nfldc has him as the 11 WR with a third round grade, walterfootball doesn't even have him in their five round mock (which admittedly blows). I could go on and on and on with examples of people and experts who don't see him as worth the 49 pick. Why don't you show me the places who think he is worth the 49 pick let alone second rounder outside of Kiper? Like I said, The Hair's mocks aren't even worth looking at as a gauge of slot value anymore. He's slow, struggled to get separation against mediocre college CBs, and was a big time butterfingers before his senior year. Like I already said, just because we need a WR, doesn;t mean we need to grab one at 49, especially one who isn't worth the pick. The opportunity cost of grabbing Mass there over the dozens of guys myself and almost everyone else consider to be better players doesn't add up.

No, you're right. There are only 8 WRs worth a first day pick this year, and he isn't one of them. If the top 7 aren't there at 49, then we should be looking elsewhere without a doubt, IMO, because anyone else would be a major reach based on BPA talent. Heck, I'd rather have Sherrod Martin (provided Shad is gone) every day of the week over Mass there, and I don't consider him solid value at 49. I would even rather grab Sidbury there, and again, I don't consider him solid value at all at 49. Those are just a couple examples of how little I value Mass. Kiper may be responsible for making the draft the event that it is today, but his mocks aren't even good at gauging players slot value anymore.

Good to see you come over here Grrl. Always nice to have a familiar face around.

No thanks. He had every last chance to be "the guy" in Jacksonville and failed. Though his 07' looked like he was finally turning it around with Garrard tearing it up, he still dropped passes left and right and never got anything close to consistent separation.

Well, he DOES have a history of concussions, three to be exact. As for the post of him having a bad year pass blocking, 4.5 sacks given up is better than Tait's 6 or St.Clairs 9.75.

Yeah, I'm completely sold on going OT in round 1. OT, DE, FS, and WR should without a doubt be our top 4 priorities, and when you look at it, it really comes down to OT and WR based on likely BPA for those positions at 18. I'm not a fan of Johnson or English at DE, and the top 3 will be gone by then. I really like RJ and Delmas at FS, but both are second rounders, and they're the top of this class at this position. Then you look at what else would help us like OG and there just plain isn't one worth a first, let alone the 18 pick. That boils it down to Britton and Beatty at OT, or a WR like DHB, Maclin, Nicks or Britt, and I think OT is easily the bigger impact pick for our current situation. After all, KO can't hit the open men without a reliable line, making a top WR pick virtually worthless, and Forte can't do much to open up the passing game with no holes to run through in the ground game.

Bennett is 5'11-1/2", not 6'1". He also weighed 209 when he ran his time. But to skip the nit-picking and answer the question at hand. I find them to be VERY similar style receivers. It's not that they aren't athletic, because those extra 10-15 pounds they have on the typical guys running 4.4s DOES make a big difference in workouts, it's just that they relied more on actual savvy and all the fundamental stuff to work over defenders in college. I was very surprised to hear Earl had a hard time learning the playbook, because he was one of those smart/"gets it" guys in college, and that's how I feel about Nicks as a prospect, he appears to really get everything that is required of the position.

I would never compare Dex to Suggs, but my point was that the guy has found a way around every blocker I have seen him go up against with his pure speed and athleticism, but not Eben. Britton had his way with him all day, and didn't even let up so much as a hurry. I don't care what anyone says, it takes some sewing machine feet to stay in front of that kid, because he burns past guys on the edge like clockwork, and his motor never stops running. Chris DOES have some crazy hands, and is one of those "get by on smarts" receivers, but it's going to take some good workouts for him to even get drafted IMO.

After watching him destroy every pass rusher my Sun Devil's threw at him these past three years, I would have no problem with that pick. As for the experts who question his foot speed, I'd suggest they watch the tape of him not only staying in front of, but killing Dexter Davis all day this season, including one block where he drove the poor kid ten yards downfield on a block. For those of you unfamiliar with him, Dexter is an absolute athletic beast of a DE/OLB. People may be right when they say he is a RT spect, but he DOES have a chance at LT, and he if Williams craps on all the stupid buster talk, RT is what we need anyway.

I know Beatty has some great measurables, phenomenal really, but based on what he did on the field I find it hard to say he is worth 18. He's being put ahead of Eben (who I have the displeasure of watching destroy my Sun Devils pass rushers the past three seasons) and I just don't see him as being even equal to Britton on tape. He does, however, have that huge upside which would definitely make him worth the risk at 18 regardless. Then again, I don't like this DE class much past the top 6 or so, and they'll all be off the board by our second, so if one of the big four is there it might be hard to pass up. Even though we really need a top flight OT out of this draft if we miss out on Barnes, Willis, Stinch or maybe even Pears. If we do manage to bust out the wallet and cash in on one of those RTs, that just makes things a ton easier on us first day. In that case, I would pray Jenkins get passed by the idiots only looking at timed speed in their CBs so we could land our franchise FS. We can decide to go DE/FS/OL, and take a shot on an upside project for a second OL later on in the draft (Murtha, Bell, Kropog, Fultan, Bright, Vasquez, Cadogen) rather than one of the guys with bloated value. Loadholt is a slow footed plodder who can't handle speed off the edge at all. Pass. I'd rather us move up and grab Johnson or Delmas to man FS, or just stand pat and wait and see what DE or WR is there. Watkins might be an upside pick somewhat, but he really wasn't all that good at Florida, and his efficiency rating will show that. One of the three position interior lineman there like Caldwell, or Wood would be great there though. Maybe even grab our backup HB?

usatoday just clumps a persons signing bonus all into one year when they sign a contract. That should tell you how accurate their numbers are. example Urlacher's 04' numbers... $ 1,050,000 $ 13,000,000 $ 1,005,600 $ 15,055,600 ..........................^^^^^^^^^=entire bonus clumped into first year of deal=false Yeah, that's not even close. I'll admit he may be off with his proration of certain bonuses, which in fact would throw his numbers off quite a bit. However, those usatoday numbers are not accurate in the SB slot, and that throws off their calculations in other bonuses quite a bit too.

Hey, they are all from reputable media sources that can be corroborated all over other media reports using a simple google search. If PFT can be called an NFL news outlet with all in-the-loop sources and be considered dependable, then the Sun Times and Tribune Bears beat reporters (majority of his source info in posts) should be something around infallible.

All signing bonus are prorated, and BTW it was a 14 mm SB (hence 2.33). 14/6=2.33. Roster bonuses ARE NOT part of the signing bonus, thus that 4mm roster bonus added to the first year has nothing to do with the signing bonus, and has zero affect on the signing bonus. 5.2mm base + 2.3 SB + 4mm signing bonus that year made it 11.5 that year which the Chiefs declined to match. They could have matched it, but thought better of it since they would have had nearly zero cap room left. I don't see what's so hard to understand there. linky The Oguns and RMJ deals also had prorated bonuses. They got low base numbers and huge roster bonuses in their first years. RMJ for example had a 5mm roster bonus in his first season. Oguns had a $455,000 base salary to go along with his prorated SB. The next year he got a 5mm roster bonus to go along with his base and prorated SB. I'd love to see some worked out numbers from you, but I guess we can continue to try and rip apart someone else while providing none of our own numbers.

He's a guy who gives solid numbers, links, shows his work, and doesn't make you take his word for it. As in, you know, he actually shows you links, work, research. Note how I used "the guy", not as, "oh he's the man blah blah blah." "[T]he guy goes through step by step with every single number he puts up there"... As in, he shows you how he has come to every number in his posts and gives links and sources for his info. That alone right there makes "the guy" more reliable to me than a guy who just tosses out one figure for each team as the golden number. When did I say that? Again inferring points that I never made, or failing to read what I did write. I said we can look forward to spending 2.9mm on whatever we can, and not having the luxury of 9mm that some site tosses out there without any backing whatsoever. I seriously don't see how anyone could believe we have 9mm left after spending the money we did this offseason and cutting the players we did. We created a ton of dead cap space by cutting Moose, Griese, RMJ, Benson, Miller, AA, along with the smaller numbers contributed by Bazuin Okwo and the like.

Nice. How old are you?

Because, not only have I gone through the CBA and read the cap guidelines, but the guy goes through step by step with every single number he puts up there. He gives you links to back his contract numbers, and if you're not lazy you can double check them yourself. All the numbers are there for the looking, so please, go ahead and actually point out something tangible in the links I gave you to show where he went wrong, or just avoid the conversation when all you to add is the usual "I disagree, but don't have any contradicting proof to back up my statements." The difference of numbers comes down to the 100MM in solid factual cap hits, and the dead space. Just looks at the contracts we terminated this year, look at the unamortized bonuses owed, and do the math yourself. The rules are quite clear in stating where all of the "dead moneys" owed should be appropriated, so as far as "loopholes", it's not quite as complicated as you may think.

Thanks for adding nothing. However, feel free to criticize something with little else but a snappy one liner. I've seen person after person try to point out some kind of flaw with his calculation, and have yet to see one person do so successfully. But, ya know, it's a lot easier to believe a guy who just gives you one number rather than someone who actually goes through step-by-step to explain how he got where he did.