BearFan PHX

you dont know that. neither do I. We cant know what would happen if Johnson wanted someone else. We cant even know if Johnson LOVES how Poles handled the draft. We just dont know. But people get fired after winning seasons. Lovie did. Johnson has pull and if he doesnt want Poles, then Poles will be out. But what does Johnson think about him? I have no earthly idea! All I said was that Johnson WILL know if Poles screwed up the draft or not. We wont know, but Johnson will. That's all Im saying.

Totally agree. I learn a lot here.

Lie. I dont care who anyone reads. You have, like 50 times, said "well youre just a fan and the pros know better" and THAT is discounting my right to an opinion. That's ALL this is about. You saying my (and others') people's opinions arent valid because someone else said something. If you said "Brugler says this and i think hes right" then that is FINE. But you keep saying "youre just a fan, so you dont know" is the what I'm talking about. It's BS. Everyone on this board has a right to an opinion, and we should debate the merits, not dismiss people because Bugler Mr "Banks will never go in the top 10" said something. He has a right to his opinion, and we have a right to ours.

SO true. One thing I do know is that Johnson knows the answers to all of this. He knows if Poles did well or poorly in the draft. And he has enough juice int he building to do something about it if necessary. Johnson did make one comment, that I read as a backhanded compliment about Poles being more disciplined on the draft board than anyone hes ever seen. Meaning he wouldnt budge to reach for someone at all. Maybe that was admiration, or maybe it was surprise that he let himself get fleeced on players getting picked before us. I cant possibly know, but Johnson does, and if it's an issue, he will get it corrected Im not predicting this, but I wouldn't be shocked if Poles is fired in the next couple of years and someone Johnson likes comes in to replace him.

I am saying, you seem to think our opinions come from a place of loving or hating. Cant it just be that we see some positive things and some negative things? You seem to defend every player because theyre on the team. Youre loyal to them. Thats a good trait in general. Its good to have friends like that. But if we think a player is weak and the team would be better with a replacement, thats not being a negative nelly., its just an opinion that comes from wanting the Bears to be good. People like some things and dislike others - its not a personality flaw - it's just sports talk.

Im saying you dont read what i write and instead respond to things I didnt say. Also, invoking experts is FINE, saying that they are experts and we cant know because we are just fans is the problem. Anything that is an opinion is fine. Anything that is presented as factual, is up for debate on the merits. As for the worse insults, that wasnt because we were disagreeing, it was because of the way you were speaking to me then. You havent done anything like that since, so its all good. And yes, I would LOVE to not be in a "feud" with you. Thats really the truth. When we agree I always go out of my way to say so. I would prefer mutual respect, i really would. But sometimes we see things very differently, and that's OK, and then we disagree. But when you try to "prove" things, and the logic isnt sound thats usually where the disagreements come from. And all thats OK. Nothing about the way weve been speaking to eachother since back then has been inappropriate, so Im not angry about any of it.

if we can learn anything it would be truly fascinating. I wonder if they would allow any info out, but I agree id love to see it.

What if we just have opinions, positive and negative, and that doesnt mean our entire outlook is positive or negative? What if we just really love the Bears and every comment isnt evidence of a pattern that we have some kind of personality?

4490! Nice!

I AM NOT GREAT AT LOOKING AT TAPE. Ive said it a thousand times. i think if ANYONE looked at the tape they would see the same things I see. And I dont have a thousand opinions from looking at tape. Just a couple. A couple of things stood out to me. I am not saying I am the greatest evaluator, Im just saying that for example Banks looked really good on tape and I didnt understand people like Brugler who had him going in the 20s. What I was saying was that every time you negated my opinion, or a lot of other people's here, you did it by invoking the great and powerful Brugler. As if he was the final word. And he isnt. Hes just another opinion. I was saying stop telling us all that your source knows and we cant possibly because we are just fans. If that was true, then shut down this board and we can all read Brugler. What is so hard about that? As to your other point that the Banks pick was "mute" (the word is moot) I said I KNEW that he was good - and his selection at 9 proved that i was right. But I also didnt know if the Bears would pick him at 10 or not. You misread that, like so many things I say, that I was saying the Bears WOULD have taken him, when actually in all humility, I was saying that I couldnt possibly know that. Seriously, do you read these posts and post when youre drunk? Im not being mean, Im actually asking.

right, but youre listing conclusions that what happened in the draft tells us what the Bears thoguht, and I dont think that evidence is enough to support the claims, or in at least one case, the evidence disproves it?

well I cant PROVE it, but I think Poles thought Ersery would still be there after the trade back. I think he got too cute - correctly predicted no teams ahead of him would take Ersery, but failed to cover for the possibility that the Texans (or someone) would trade up for him. Thats where I think Poles got too cute. He is so focused on being disciplined and not reaching, but sometimes, straining for that extra 5th round pick isnt worth taking a chance on losing a guy you need. And that's *IF* they see Ersery the way I do, which I will never know if they did or not. But my guess is they traded down too far or too much. The prize for trading down was getting either Burden or Turner. You could have had either one and Ersery without the trade. But to get both, you had to downgrade Ersery to Trapilo. Again, depending on how they had Ersery and Trapilo evaluated, this either worked, or we got screwed by the Texans. And it felt like we made the same error each time with HBs, just missing big names each time. It felt like the year that Aaron Donald went one pick before us.

hahaha me too! As Ive said before, i think you are loyal to anyone on our team, and I am more like loyal to the team, and not specifically the players on it. Each way is good. Just dont worry if people are criticizing. Poles' feelings arent hurt by anything i say, and if any coach or player or GM does good things, I'll support those things, and Ill criticize the bad stuff. All hoping to make the team better. Also, believe it or not I dont dislike you. I just dont like when you say things are facts when they arent really proven. As you agree, most things are opinions and cant really be proved. But I dont want to argue with you in particular, I just dont like when you say some pundit says something so it must be right. i will be wrong plenty, so will you and so will the pundits, but my belief is that all of us have valid opinions in general? I dont care if some big shot disagrees with me, if i see what I see, then i know what i saw. But with most things, there isnt enough to see to KNOW. Only a few things every year for me that i feel I really know. Like I KNOW Banks is a good prospect, but couldnt possibly know if the Bears would take him or not.

It should be a matchup nightmare for sure.

Banks was already gone. How did my narrative die? We cant know what they would have done. But they DID spend a 2nd rounder on LT so they must think they need something - even if its more competition? They didnt take a OG or OC? So they felt LT was something that needed addressing. With a high pick. No matter who ends up starting, they did what they did, taking an LT. Youre not making any sense.

I didnt say *I* have to see tape - you just talked about how important it is to see it yourself, and so when I "wept a tear of joy" it was because you were finally agreeing and saying youd look at the tape - so how do i think other people dont? I was saying i hope you DO! I think people look and we all have opinions, and I dont think anyone's opinion is fact, just another opinion, whether its me or you or some pundit. But occasionally I will see something so clear that i am shocked anyone else looks at film and thinks something different. It's only like 1 or 2 "facts" a year. Not everything at all. Most things are murky.

I agree. I am not saying I'm right, I'm saying you cant say you're right either so how can you list things we now "know?" Just because Im saying you dont know factually doesnt mean Im saying I do.

youre full of it. They targeted a bunch of HBs and got outplayed by teams right above them. Poles said as much. Dont ask me to find it, but it was in one of the press conferences, not the first day. And I believe he was targeting Ersery too before Texas traded up and took him. I can't say I KNOW that, but you cant say you know we werent either. And so what we took and that we traded down doesnt prove anything. You really are making a lot of sweeping conclusions based on patterns that arent large enough to count as proof. SAnd a lot of them seem like attempts to prove you were right. Everyone else is talking about the team, not beating eachother. #3 is right. They wouldnt have drafted him if they didnt think he could play. But I think Poles messed up big time this year. He did play the draft right for value, but i think he got outfoxed on players several times. Specifically at LT and HB. On the other hand, we have Burden, who isnt a need but was great value. I am sure the players we took into the 4th round or so will be good for us. But I dont think this was Poles' hope or plan. The player Evals are probably really good because of the coaching staff, but the way he played the day I think he didnt do that well. But most of all Johnson will know whether Poles got the right guys, or whether we whiffed and had to go to plan B and C too often. And if that's the case, Johnson has the juice to oust Poles in a year or two. Not predicting that, but just going through the various scenarios. I think LT, HB and GM are our biggest weaknesses.

no we dont have to assume that at all, and the argument he is making isn't that they would have taken Banks so that proves anything. Thats your strawman version of it. What he is saying is that Braxton at his best is easily now the worst OL we have on the starting 5, and he is injured and wont be back for a while. And Kiran has nothing but possibilities - nothing good on tape. In fact the most generous thing we can do is to not hold him accountable for how he looked last year. And fairly, we are doing that. He is a clean slate. But that's not any positive evidence of anything. And lastly, whatever you think of Zapilo, they spent a 2nd round pick on him. That means they are not happy at LT. This narrative you keep trying to resurrect died a logical death when they spent a 2nd round pick on LT. There is no evidence they are feeling fine with Jones and Amagadje at all. We can hope Amagadje will develop, but the 2nd round pick says the Bears arent gambling on that at all.

he will have a very specialized role for us. He will only watch film on GOlden, he will practice agaisnt VR Goldens, his only job will be to shut down Matthew Golden LOL

why is this helpful. this is a sports talk board, and people are expressing opinions thats what its for! Just because people have questions doesnt mean they are wallowing in misery. Pundits can be wrong, and so can scouts and GMs. So its Ok for people to have questions or doubts isnt it?

I wept a tear of joy when you posted this!

I think a lot of these guys can be paired up with the position coaches they are gifts for, and probably put in a word for? Maybe that's why it looks so weird this year. Johnson - Loveland Randle-El - Burden Roushar - Trapilo, Newman Allen - Turner, Hyppolite Harris - Frazier Bienemy - Monangai

I think thats the right way to look at it. TE and WR might end up being core pieces though for a Ben Johnson offense. I imagine having only eaten simple home cooked food, if a chef came along, and i was thinking "he's gonna go get some fresh steaks" and instead he comes back with all kinds of things Ive never heard of like leeks and bay leaves. Im surprised. It's not what Im used to. It was outside the box for what i thought was important. But possibly Johnson knows something about offense that tells him Kmet is just not able to do what he needs to make it work. So the proof will be in the meal. Maybe it will be delicious and have flavors I've never even thought of before. Or maybe it's a smartest guy problem. We will see it on the field. But its possible Johnson wanted all those names we missed on, and Poles got played trying to wait for them, or trading back just a little too much.