BearFan PHX

Of course youre right. If Johnson is the head coach he will be the head coach, but Rivera could be bad cop. He will certainly demand accountibility on the defense, and that will bleed over too. I assume Johnson will too, but I am concerned about how tough he is. With Rivera here it mitigates some of my concerns.

well I have never once met Pete Carroll, so for sure I don't know what he would or wouldn't do. If he was willing, I agree that'd be a great situation.

Id love that, but I dont see either of them agreeing to that. I think the best hope is to get a strong culture builder as DC, maybe Ron RIvera?

this is my greatest concern with McCarthy too

Interesting thought on Waddle and Silvy today with Michael Wilbon. If we do go with Ben Johnson, what about Ron Rivera as DC? He would certainly bring accountability to the locker room. he could play that Dan Campbell role for us from the DC position, and he could give head coaching experience advice to Johnson who would be new to it. I gotta say, I don't hate the idea of having a tough former head coach as DC to address some of the worries i have about Johnson. And that said, i would keep 10 miles away from Flores in any role.

I think this is exactly it.

I think that for the last year, and until a week or two ago, Poles knew Johnson was his top target. Now that McCarthy is in the mix, that calculus might be changing. I just hope Poles is flexible enough mentally to reevaluate his situation, and isn't stuck in mental inertia, having trouble letting go of his earlier thoughts. I think about how he almost traded up with the Giants to get Odunze. Is he flexible enough to deal with a change in the situation? Or is he too dogged and has trouble letting go of plans? I sure hope he isn't thinking about playing them off of each other, or worse yet, likes McCarthy best but is waiting to do due diligence on Johnson. That would be a huge mistake. If you like McCarthy best right now GRAB HIM, you dont wait to make your bets until you've seen everyone's cards. It's too late then. Like you say, it won't last long. On the other hand, if he IS flexible, and he still prefers Johnson, then while I might not agree with his choice, then he is still playing his cards right. I really don't trust Poles.

This is exactly my thinking too. You took the job security CYA approach to explaining it, but it also goes for what is best for the franchise too. If we become a yearly playoff team, and can't get over the hump, then it would be a good time to bring in that hot shot scheme guy, after the foundation is set. But there is nothing about hiring McCarthy that means we cant get a hot shot OC too. This is also true of Carroll, who has the added plus that the OC would be an asst head coach and heir apparent. That means you dont lose the guy AND you can probably get the best candidates too because of the increased title and opportunity. I prefer McCarthy or Carroll (I dont know which I want more?) over Ben Johnson for SURE.

damn can you imagine?!

Both of our running backs could use an upgrade, and I dont know any names yet, but I dont doubt your research. Consider also that if you upgrade the OL, every running back looks better!

you need players too. Johnson has the best OL in football, and his offense is predicated on play action passing. Of course everything is working. And don't get me wrong - I love how Johnson shows you something and maybe twice and then uses your expectations to go the other way when you think youve read the play. That kind of conditioning is really great for offenses. Contrast that with Nagy's "you cant tell what we are doing" approach which doesnt work as well. But Johnson isnt the only coach that gets this. Lots of pro coaches know this. Schemes come and go. But players win games, and coaches build cultures. yes we need an OC who understands schemes, but that isn't so hard to find. McCarthy will have lots of contacts, and a good idea of who would be good choices to hire from among people we havent heard of yet, because of his years at the Packers and the Cowboys. His winning percentage over a large sample size is impressive. A lot of the super bowls he didnt win were won by the Patriots and the Chiefs. So you can indict the entire rest of the league for not being Belichick or Reid, but then again, they have/had Brady and Mahomes. Mahomes wins all these superbowls, some with Nagy around, so maybe Caleb has a higher ceiling than Dak Prescott? Maybe that's where McCarthy will get over the hump? Also, you cant overlook the experience head coaches get over time. Belichick was not great with the Browns, Reid didnt win the big one with Philly. By your logic, youd have overlooked both? Johnson is smart, but Trestman was smart too. He got our offense moving, but the team didnt have that edge, the defense fell apart, and you know the rest. Let's get a head coach to be the head coach, and an OC to be the OC.

I love it. He will set the culture, and develop Caleb. Best of both worlds.

thanks for that - I had missed it, and youre right. It makes McCarthy and Tomlin even more similar. I suppose the biggest difference is that McCarthy came from the offensive side of the ball and Tomlin from the defensive side. But i wonder how much that matters to someone who has been a head coach for well over a decade as they both have. Certainly Bill Belichick was a monster offensive thinker, but he came up the ranks on the defensive side. I understand if someone is coming from being a coordinator how it might matter, but if someone has been head coach for a long time; McCarthy, Tomlin, Carroll - I think at some point they probably have ideas on both sides of the ball. And I mean, how can you be a successful offensive coordinator if you don't understand defenses and vice versa?

I think McCarthy and Tomlin are very similar. Both are tough culture builders with experience, and long sustained winning. McCarthy has never won a SB and Tomlin has one in 2008. McCarthy is an offensive guy who has worked with big name QBs. Both are getting older, some say neither can win the big game again, but both have high floors. Each is possibly available after long stints with a team that had a lot of winning, but didn't dominate against the top teams. Either one would be a good hire for us. Between the two I think I'd go with McCarthy. But given that we really need a culture builder and THEN a schematic wizard, I like the idea of Pete Carroll with a top flight OC/assistant head coach who will take over as HC after Carroll retires and has built a sustainable culture. As much of a whiz as Ben Johnson is, I dont think we have the foundation and culture yet to go right to the whiz kid. I dont love the idea of bringing in a Fox type guy and then a whiz as a head coach after that because of all the upheaval, so the Pete Carroll concept looks pretty good to me. I mean, you get the tough guy, but you dont lose your OC and eventually he becomes your offensive minded head coach after the foundation is built, without having to change underlings, systems etc. But honestly, I'd be fine with any of those guys over Johnson. And Im not saying Johnson wont be a tough culture builder. I just dont know if he will, and we need one for sure. If that first time HC doesnt pay off, say goodbye to Caleb and wait another 20 years for a QB.

I think youre right - we could really use them this year though I wonder if we can trade them this year

very interesting. check out his ranking on winning percentage (37th all time) vs other notable coaches. Hes been doing it a long time, big sample size, and he beats out guys like Landry, McVey, Carroll, Holmgren, Parcells, Noll. His .608 all time winning percentage compares favorably to Bill Walsh .609 Marty Schottenheimer .613 Sean Payton .618 If you remove head coaches with fewer than 8 years experience (smaller sample size compared to McCarthy's 18 years), his rank would be 26th all time. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches

right - thats why I think Kingsbury deserves some of the credit, and i dont know how much is Daniels in terms or reading the whole field? Waldron was in over his head 100%, and Brown had to keep the same playbook, so i dont blame him so much. That doesnt mean Brown is ready to be OC or HC, but he was handcuffed from the start too.

Yes Daniels deep ball accuracy was always good, and Caleb's is questionable for sure. I feel comfortable talking about Caleb's strengths and weaknesses, but I really don't know Daniels. I also know that Kingsbury flamed out in Arizona, and eventually the league figured out his tricks, although he has new tricks now, and in time they will be figured out too. And I feel that is true of any scheme. McVey was a great a example of that - he was killing the league until Fangio showed how to beat him. This is why Im skeptical of a scheme guy being able to dominate on scheme alone, hence my worries about Johnson. I wasnt so much saying i want Kingsbury for us as just being surprised with all the success Daniels has had why he isnt getting any love, not just from us, but the coaching search this year in general.

well argued. i cant disagree. also a good point

I haven't watched a lot of Daniels this year, so I could just be regurgitating pre draft talking points here, but I think Daniels is a one read kind of guy. But even if he has developed, or maybe especially because he has developed, I think it's interesting that Kliff Kingsbury isnt getting more love in the coaching searches for various teams?

I dunno if you can learn toughness, but I agree that he is a top name for our job. I do have concerns, but they are just because i dont know, not because I do know something negative, just the unknown for me. He could well come in and be great. And if he is a our choice then I really hope so. But Id feel more comfortable with a leader than a schemer.

I don't see how Tomlin would want to come here when he has Justin there to work with LOL (yes I know that makes no sense for like 5 different reasons, but I couldnt help it LOL)

I think it's hard to imagine any real news being leaked at this point, so everything that comes out, even from Halas Hall is probably meant for some spin. I'm not saying it isn't true, spin can be true too, but someone put it out for a reason, even if the network guys pick it up too? Im not saying youre wrong at all, just saying that if something is released, there is a reason for it.

Unless they like someone else better. I know we are all reading in the press that Johnson is the greatest thing to ever come along as a coach, and if we do choose him I hope to hell he is and i will be cheering for him, but it is possible another candidate, one with more head coaching experience will be the choice.

So Vrabel is going to the Patriots. I gotta say i really liked the idea of him as Head Coach. I'm sad to see him off the list. I predict the Patriots will do well under his leadership. Wish it was us.