Alaskan Grizzly

I will concede that he is the "Bears #1 receiver" in the sense that he was in that position. His stats are really not all that better than the rest of the receivers on the team so.... I still cannot agree that he is the "best WR".

And that player should be Hester....

"1. When it comes to numbers, I think one of the key numbers talked about is percentage of passes thrown his way which were caught. That does in fact imply an ability to get open. Look at Holt as an example to the opposite, just as he has been recently talked about elsewhere. Holt has lost more than just a step, and in Jax, he really struggled to get separation. That is really shown in how many of the passes thrown his way fell incomplete. Sure, some were simply bad passes, but many were also defended as he just couldn't get enough sep from the DB. Hester however was able to get open, and thus a very high percentage of passes thrown his way were caught. When Hester's numbers have been thrown out there, I think that is one of the biggest, or most important, ones to look at." Yes there are differences but other than TD's, their stats are almost identical. HESTER: (09) 57 / 757 yards with 58.2 avg/game and 3 TD. HOLT - (09) 51 / 722 yards with 48.1 avg / game and no TD's. You can skew this however you want but those numbers are not all that different. Again, unless you count the TD's. And even then Olsen still has a significant lead for the team with 8. "2. You say he has a year of experience on the other young WRs. That is true on one level, but not entirely true IMHO. I would argue other receivers on our team, while less experienced on the NFL level, are actually more experienced WRs. That is something that just doesn't get enough consideration. Hester was not a WR in college. He played some WR, but played so many other position, including even defense, that he never really developed at WR that way other WRs on our team had. Bennett entered the NFL a far more polished WR than Hester. Heck, even Knox as a rookie was a more polished WR than Hester. Hester may have been more adapted to the speed of the NFL and the playbook, but at the same time,he was also still in the process of learning to play the WR position, thus I am not sure it truly accurate to state he was more experienced than the other, younger WRs on the roster. Remember, the first year he was a Bear, he was actually considered a DB, and the 2nd year, he really only was considered a gimick WR. It was not until his 3rd season he was actually tudored to be a WR. The key for me is he has continued to develop. He is still not a polished WR, but again, he is continuing to to develop, which to me shows he has not hit his ceiling yet." I couldn't agree with you more. My point should have been taken with a bit cynicism. The fact that he is learning should bother you, as it does me. The fact that these other WR's on the roster are ACTUALLY WR's coming out of college gives me a lot of hope for coming years. As you mentioned, they need experience to the speed of the NFL and things will start to gel. "IMHO, if Hester had the trade value he had a few years ago, I think many more fans would be on board w/ the idea of trading him today, but that value is gone down considerably. His value as a WR, as you said, is very minimal. He has proven he can play WR, but has not proven yet he can play at a level that would attract a ton of trade value. As a returner, he once looked like the best returner EVER, but for the last two years has looked average or below average. His trade value is simply so low that you have to really ask whether it is even worth it. Hester still has potential, both as a WR and returner, and I would argue his value to the team is greater than his trade value. That is why I think most fans are not on board w/ the idea of trading him. It isn't that he is considered an untradable player, but that is value in a trade just isn't there." I totally agree, as I have posted before. The rest is speculative. Especially with Hester, as was discussed earlier. "I just don't see the trade bait. Hester just doesn't have the trade value. If you believed half the arguments you use to give the impression of his having trade value, why then even trade him. No, I think the rest of the league right now see's him in the same light as you, which is why you want to get rid of him, but also why other teams would not be willing to give up anything of substance for him.". Because my belief in ANY of his trade value is for his returning abilities. I don't think the Bears need three players that can blow a game open with their return game (Knox and Manning being the other two). Pair that with his "potential" Now with recent news that a) Boldin could be had for a third rounder then I say do it and package Hester in it and b ) Hester might be a decent slot receiver with occasional return duties, according to Martz, I say give it a shot but not without trying option A first.

Uhm, I be willing to give a third round and Hester. That should seal the deal.

I saw your earlier reply post to my own and am now just getting caught up. To address that point first. As I told another poster earlier on, your interpretation of numbers are different than mine own. I too wrote down Hester's numbers and compared them to the other "main" recievers on the roster and he proved nothing extraordinary compared to them. Something else I didn't point out was that not only was he the "#1" receiver but he also had at least one year on the other youngsters and still was not able to seperate, or define himself as the primary receiver. Again my point is his trade, or should I say tradeable, value. Hester has the possibility of being partially decent WR but he does have those other intangiables that other teams might want or need. That primarily being as a return man. Unfortunately he is about a year removed from it and hasn't had the chance to show his skills so his trade value is diminishing daily. As far as the WR value, it is a non-factor to other teams. I actually did address the Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Tom Brady relationship and who you or I might think is the #1 versus how Brady looks at it. Moss produces more in the way of TD's but Welker is "looked at" a larger percentage of the time. So, who would be the #1 in that situation? I say, like another poster earlier stated, the #1 WR idea is a misnomer (he actually said "stupid"). And if you read the first half to this post you will see that I don't believe that the Bears are without "trade bait".

Perhaps an explanation to my way of thinking. First off, we all agree that Hester is not (nor will he be) a #1 receiver. Waiting in the wings, and true WR's I might add, are Aromashadu, Knox, Bennett, Iglesias and even Olsen. Someone like Holt could only solidify that core as an experienced (and true) WR. Hester is more just a "maybe" than a "will be". Next, if he (Hester) stays in Chicago for just returns or gimmicky play then again the Bears have Knox and Manning more than capable to handle that. What says that some team out there doesn't think that Hester could prove a missing dimension for them and not be willing to part with a 3rd or even 2nd round pick or even a player of similar value, but in another position? After all most here think the Bears are in need of an OL, FS or DL and fromwhat I hear, this years draft is chock full of pretty good FS. So why not use Hester to help buildthe future in other positions rather than follow the Lions plan of overstocking the WR position?

The numbers that Holt had last year in Jacksonville; 51 for 757, will make Hester even that more "normal" thus, expendable. Trade him (Hester) while the iron is hot.

Well said sir. Further it was said that Lovie destroyed a Super Bowl team. Tell me again how the team got there in the first place? Was that team handed to him on a "silver platter"?

Yep. Not much more to say. Millen undoubtedly was the constant force behind a consistently unimpressive team. The Bears are no Lions. And Cowher won't need bother apply after the Bears make the playoffs next season.

You say Tomato, I say TomAHto. I plugged in the percentage of the actual catches to targets. I interpret that Hester did "pedestrian" compared to the other three that you showed as an example. Especially given that he didn't blow the doors off the other three in the percentages and theoretically being the #1. By the way you left out Olsen in your figures. What was his ratio? Another thing to notice was the TD production. Hester paled in that regard to two of the three you mentioned. And to Olsen, who made 8 trips to the endzone by the way. And one last thing to mention is that Aromashadu made his stats in 9 games not the 12 that Hester played in. There is almost no question in my mind that Aromashadu will (should) be #1 next year and Bennett will be the "clutch" receiver. Whatever ends up happening, I am pretty excited about the potential given that all the receivers you mentioned were either in their rookie year or first year playing full time. Olsen is the most experienced of the group and he has only been on the team for 4 years.

I know there was a post somewhere where I actually disproved that Hester was the #1 receiver. I think the only stat he led was YPG. And it was 4 not 3 games that he missed. And being "on pace" versus actually making a 1,000 yards are two different things. Ironically I find it funny that you compare Boldin - who you say is injury prone to Hester who was...injured for those 4 games. But, as I proved in my earlier post, Boldin still outproduced Hester, and he's a #2. Aromashadu did more overall with less time (9 games) and PROBABLY would have been even more meaningful to the team had Cutler been able to get him in the rotation sooner. Thusly, having someone like Aromashodu get more "looks" or catches as opposed to Hester would indeed improve the overall receiving game. I even believe that Knox and Bennett getting more looks will improve the game, especially with one full year under their belts.

There is a lot of speculative thinking in this post. A lot of "I think" and "Tice amd Martz seem..." say you not only don't know exactly how things are going to go you HOPE they do. Two things you said; "He took an ultra-talented team...and turned it into a steaming pile" which year are you referencing? The year they went to the Super Bowl or ??? That year would contradict you statemen. The second; "He (Martz) single handedly cost the Rams a SuperBowl..." Which Super Bowl was it? He did make it to two while coaching with the Rams after all. And his overall record as an HC is 56-36 (per Wikipedia) which in myh book is not a losing trend. As far as the Defensive side. Most here would agree that the Defense improved in the last two games of the season. Especially in that game against Minnesota. The Defense played inspired and seemed pretty happy when they sacked Favre, or caused Peterson to fumble. And this was despite 4-5 of their starters not being in the game. What was that again about "undeveloped talent"?. Now if the trend continues and someone like Marinelli is running the "D" with his "sis boom bah" type of coaching, who knows? They could end up being pretty darn good. I believe that Pix was being speculative too about how things are going to be in the coming year. But at least it's positive speculation. I have to agree that if your are so dissatisfied with the direction of this team and want to follow another team until the Bears rise to prominence once again, then please enjoy watching your new team. My money's on the Bears making it back to the playoffs in the next season. See you then.

Nicely done MadLith. This is the most optimistic I've seen you in awhile. What's this world coming to? I also agreed twice in one week with Terra Tor. Holy Cow. And DaBearzSox... you do know that that McCaskey's are direct decendants of #6 that MadLith referenced above right? To not have them in the mix would be like taking the apple out of the pie.

Ding, ding, ding. Now we're talkin'!!!! "Trade for Boldin or Marshall". Sounds like a great idea. And I'm not so sure that taking Hester out of the WR rotation makes things "worse". He really isn't that integral.

For what its worth: 4850-4900 yards passing. (He will scare a lot with closing in on 5,000) 35-38 TD's 19 INT's 20 +/- Sacks (which could nullify most other stats) And 10 Rushing TD's. I envision Martz doing a lot of his "greatest show on turf" but a fair amount of rollouts for Cutler. Additionally, Forte will resemble Faulk a lot. I see him doing more outside running and a lot of screens and catches out of the backfield.

The fact that I continue to agree with Terra is starting to unnerve me. In fact, I couldn't agree more. I would go as far as to say and suggest that Hester is done (or should be) as a WR, slot or otherwise. In fact, the Bears should showcase his return abilities maybe in training camp, and that he still has "it" , and trade him before the season. The Bears missed their opportunity a few years back but there is still hope on his value.

Although I don't agree wholeheartedly with TerraTor about the "useless" tag for Hester, I agree (scary in its own right) that Hester is out of place and as you agree, definitely not a #1. I did a comparison, using Rotoworld, to stats with all the other receivers for the Bears (in 09); Aromashodu, Bennett, Knox, Olsen and Hester. Hester actually rated 2nd in total yards to Bennett (682 - 690), 2nd in catches to Olsen (54 - 55) and 3rd in TD's (3 - Knox 5 - Olsen 7). He did get #1 in average yards a game (56.8 - Bennett 46). Aromashodu made his stats in only 9 games and not all the players, save Olsen, played more than 15 games. So the idea of "ASSUMING" that Hester would make the "80+ catches, over 1000 yards and 6-8 TD's" is not only an anti-sure bet but possibly would still not make him a number 1. In fact the fact that he missed those 4 games doesn't bode well for his durability. I took the numbers from Eddie Royal who is/was Denver's #2 and through 15 games in 08 he got 91 catches for 980 yards and 5 TD's whereas in '09 with 14 games he caught 37 passes for 345 yards with 0 TD's. Something you will notice is the dropoff from 08 to 09 and possibly the coincidence of Cutler not being their QB. Whereas Cutler being the QB in Chicago in 09 did not dramatically bring Hester up to loftier numbers('08- 51/665 yds for 3 TD and '09 54/682 for 3 TD). This despite his (Hester's) alleged rise to the #1 WR spot. Lastly, Boldin I believe is the more #1 the Bears need to consider. Not only is he adequate in size but that is his "natural" position. His stats for 09 and in 14 games 81/986 yards and 4 TD's. So, Hester is not really "useless" as a WR but instead he is more misplaced and missing out on his true talent at KR and PR. I fear he has passed his other value in trade value.

Right, if the Bears stayed with the Tampa 2. The premise for moving Tillman to FS was that I had recently read a suggestion of the Bears looking at the 3-4 base defense. And in that role, Tillman would be just about right for the FS. The big lure for me is having 4 LB's at the middle level, especially with as much passing that goes on and especially the "dink and dunk" type associated with the West Coast style. That is a killer for the Tampa 2, as has been evidenced over the last few years. Rhodes would still be a sweet pickup though.

As awesome as it would seem and in a word: No. He was available last year for negotiations and I don't think the Bears even sniffed that direction. I think he may need to much money, which we all know is a repellent....usually. As far as a FA that is still out there unsigned that I would really like to see come to Chitown; Derrick Brooks.

I am a fan of the highlight reel. Found one on You tube that is pretty decent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF_Z3IMwevM I know the Lovie detractors will point out the middle segment, which coincidently is where the season soured (in the middle). But I will counter with those same people who claimed that Lovie had "lost the team/locker room" with the segment of video at the end. Especially the section with the second Viking's game. Looks to me like a lot of players really wanting to win and pretty happy when they eventually did. Another positive to take away from this video. Besides all the the good things that occured over the WHOLE season (many I even forgot about) is to think about how young this team is. The possibilities are endless. Go Bears 2010.

I concede my vote Mr. Giant. Nice research and good points indeed. I guess I wasn't looking at the age factor on Atogwe. I totally missed that. You are right. And the counter on Tillman is a good point, especially if you compare him to how Mike Brown fared, however not so sure that Tillman would be exposed to nearly the damage you think he would at FS. That comes with more the SS position. FS is more like a third CB with more room to roam. Anyhow, it would be all moot if someone like Rhodes were the man that was brought in. Good choice.

As much as a supporter for Lovie that I am I could not agree more. He will have a fair number of folks around him that not only does he favor but some people that are pretty good at what they do. So who is in store for the DC job???

"One thing that the two papers agree on is that this process shouldn't take that much longer. It looks like Martz or Vikings quarterbacks' coach Kevin Rogers will get the job. Hayes says Rogers remains a "strong candidate" after an impressive interview." Of the two, if this is truly close to the end of the process, I say go with Martz. I think the key could be that Martz assured the staff that he could work around his "pass happy ways" which we all know has to be the case. Even if Cutler wants to be the first to throw 5,000 yds in a season, affording Forte the opportunity to get better and match (or better) his rookie stats is even more crucial.

Forget about any of the RFA's, especially since their current teams pretty much have first dibs on them. If they are "top candidates" in either category then that will be something difficult for the Bears to match. I consistently see many here suggest the Bears are in need of a new (or improved) FS for the defense. (IMHO - still think needs first and foremost are on Offense). But if you were to entertain the FA route then there are few here that are worth considering. Again, if the Bears were to persue this RFA (unlikely) then my money would be on someone like the Rams Otogwe. He is good, consistent and probably ready to make the move to another team as did Tinoisomoa, Pace and Archuleta (and possibly Martz) did before him. Otherwise if money was no issue (or so was reality for that matter) than I would do all I could to get someone like Darren Sharper. He was available last year and the Bears squandered their opportunity. I still like the suggestion some time back about the conversion to the the 3-4 with Tillman playing FS. This type of move allows the Bears to work with what they got. Think about the LB positon with Urlacher, Briggs, Tinoisomoa and Roach(?) all working at the "second level" of the defense. Sounds pretty intriguing.

Connor, couldn't agree with you more. This is obviously an op-ed piece written by another disgruntled Bears fan. It has as much creedance as a claim that aliens live on Pluto. Wait, Pluto isn't a planet... Anyhow, most of you will recall that Tom Coughlin was in a similarly tenuous spot as Lovie when the season ended. Jerome Bettis even came out during the end of the season saying that Cowher wanted to go to New York. What's to say he (Cowher) wasn't "assembling a staff" to go to New York? Good luck Lovie and the Bears in 2010.