nfoligno

Of course, he and the Bears could be lying about his recovery too. I know there are members here who will always take the side that allows them to rip Jerry or the Bears in general. Not saying you're one of them, Mongo. Just don't know what to say to all the negativity around here anymore. I understand what you are saying, but do you think it not fair to question here? You yourself has asked why he didn't tell the truth from the start. For several weeks we listened to Lovie tell us how Williams was day to day, and how the injury wasn't anything to worry about. Maybe he was being honest and really believed that, but w/ the recent news (from Williams), I think it more than fair to question this staff today. You say he is ahead of schedule in his recovery, but how? He just had the surgury. Has he even begun his rehab yet? How can he be ahead of schedule when he has just had the surgury. At best, he is on schedule, as he had his surgury on the planned date, but I am not sure we can say he is ahead of schedule yet.

Sorry, but how right is it to judge a rookie QB who is in his first camp? he may not look good today, but can you/we honestly take anything away from that. How many rookie QBs come in and light it up?

01a - David Terrell: say what u like 01b - Anthony Thomas: always liked him, but not much of a player Angelo didn't pick them. 02 - Marc Columbo: never started a game for Bears probably, of course now with Cowboys As I recall, he did start several games for us at RT. 03a - Rex Grossman: showed his true colors (Bad rex) 03b - Berard Berrian: probably best WR weve had in 10 years, let go to rival Didn't workout, but I am not going to flat out blast Angelo. Elite prospects like Alex Smith and Leinart have not panned out either. For me, the issue isn't simply Rex not hitting for us, but Rex being his only 1st day attempt. 05a - Cedric Benson: biggest RB bust all bears time (seabass) 05b - Mark Bradley: injury prone before during and after draft (vagina) I think Enis might give Benson a run for his money. I was never a fan of the Bradley pick. 06 - Devin Hester: best return man of all time Should Hester count as he was drafted to be a return man and DB? We moved him to WR, but it doesn't appear that is how we evaluated him. 07 - Greg Olsen: i think hes a star I hope so, but I sure would like to see him improve his blocking. 08 - Chris Wiliams: injured, untypical player bears should target (baby huey) Williams wasn't my choice, but at least we recognized a top need and drafted a top prospect for that need. I would rather the Williams pick anyday over another DL.

Angelo didn't draft Terrell/A-Train. That was Hatley. Angelo joined the team that offseason, but not until after the draft.

False allegations? I am not flat out calling him a liar, but it sure does seem they his the prior knowledge of the injury. Today he is saying we knew about the injury all along, but that was not what was publically said before. In fact, as I recall, they flat out denied the "rumors" of his having back injuries around the time of the draft. I think his recent comments are both coving arce, as well as clearing air.

I don't think you read too well. Most here say Angelo drafts offense for s***. Big difference. In fact, most here feel he is pretty damn awesome when it comes to defense. The above list has one offensive player. ONE! By the way, Angelo didn't draft Mike Brown and Urlacher. Hatley did.

Albert has a minor injury. The legit type players suffer during camp that has nothing to do w/ previous red flags. And, while I am not positive, I don't think it's a 1/2 year injury.

And we could have just taken Broham w/ our 2nd. Not saying I wanted Mendy, but not sure what all the trade talk is when we could have had both players he talked about w/o trades.

Nice idea, but.... (a) I saw a lot of Hunter, so we may not have been playing a ton of nickel, which means DM may not have been on the field a ton. ( When your starting CB is struggling so much, that means the QB doesn't need to go past his 1st read, much less get down to his 3rd or 4th, which would be DM.

But we aren't. We won the war years ago. I heard Bush say so. Okay, that is probably where this needs to end, or this is really going to go off into a direction that doesn't belong around here.

No argument. Some might easily argue we took a risk w/ Urlacher, as he was considered a "tweener". A player w/o a position. Kearse was the same. Angelo has taken risks in the past, on character and "tweeners" alike. But w/ a top 15 1st round pick, back injury red flag for a LT, even if the liklihood of the injury coming up is lower, simply feels a bit too much.

Like you Connor, my only question on this is why they tried to spin it. Hey, your a political guy. You know the answer already. You spin to cover lies and deception. Angelo is not God. Agreed. Yea, I get the point. Angelo couldn't have known the injury would come up. That's what your saying, right? But other GMs felt the risk was too great, and took Williams off their boards. So it isn't a God thing, but simply a gambler thing. Medical Red Flag came up. Angelo felt the risk was minimal, and I am more than sure he wasn't alone. Yet others felt the risk was great enough not to chance a 1st round pick, and thus took him off their boards. And then the rumors surfaced about the injury issues. No way we are going to admit we took an injury risk in the 1st round, so instant spin. And then after the injury, spin was in full force. I heard the Bears asked George Bush for some help spinning this to avoid public scrutiny. Bush asked if we wanted him to declare war on Canada to spin everyones attention into another direction. Angelo told him thanks, but bear fans really wouldn't care if we were at war w/ Canada, and that wouldn't be enough to spin the story from bear fans.

Yes, they all go through extensive analysis, but at the same time, it was w/ this that several teams reportedly took him off their draft boards due to such injury concerns. So I don't think we can so easily write it off saying he went through all the exams. All teams put him through the same exams, and likely had the same reports. I suspect that at the end of the day, some teams felt the risk was too great, but others (like us) thought it minimal. Think about Grarza. No ACL. Some teams wouldn't touch him. We took a chance, and it paid off. Problem is, Garza was a low risk, as he was a cheap FA. Williams was a 1st round pick. Risk is much greater.

I did like what I saw from Orton. He looks to be a football gamer. Agreed. I hope we see a LOT more of the same from him. His play last night did more to give hope than any one thing I can point to in a long time. Our OL is still bad at opening holes. Agreed. Many are saying our OL played so much better, but I am not so sure. Orton seemed less pressured, but I honestly think that was more on him than the OL. While there were a handful of plays when the OL did open a hole for our backs, those seemed to be the exception more than the rule. I was really disgusted w/ the OL on that quick pass to Hester, where he was killed. I hit rewind and played it in slow motion several times, and our OL was simply blown up on that play. Tait and St. Clair's were leveled and throw aside, and the guys they were responsible for really gave Hester no chance. Its sad when St. Clair man, who was lined up on the opposite side of the field, so easily and quickly was able to get over to block Hester from going anywhere, and Taits man was able to get his hands on Hester first. Davis looked really good, except the drop. He had the drop, but so long as he looks as good as he does, I can live w/ it. Our WR's were open all night. For the most part, I agree, but would also point out that Orton did a great job finding the open receiver. It wasn't always the 1st read who was open, but Orton was able to go through his reads to find the open receiver, and that is huge. Hester needs to remember what got him where he is. The self serving descision to take the ball out of the endzone was idiotic. It may be Hester, but it may also be our coaches allowing more leeway in a preseason game. Turner seemed to call a good game, except for the 1st play from scrimmage. Agreed. Turner mixed it up pretty well, and didn't appear as predictable as in the past. The defense made JT O'Sullivan a household name. (Dusty was the lone standout for me) Agreed and agreed. The play thus far by our D, through 3 preseason games, is really lacking. Also of concern for me is the very average players we are allowing to beat us. Croyl, Frye and Sullivan are not exactly pro bowl QBs, and yet we are letting them shred us. Worse, they are doing it w/o great WRs. No name QBs and no name WRs are killing us. What the hell happens when we face Manning/Wayne? Special teams will be OK. Gotta appreciate the coaching here. As good as DM looked on returns, did you see the holes we were creating for him? He gets credit for the burst through the holes, and some tackles he broke, but this unit really excels. If Lovie disappeared tomorrow, this team would probably not notice him missing. Agreed 100%.

I think it is a host of things. Sure, it is possible the OL has more confidence in Orton than Rex, and while there is not conscience drop in play, the reality is when you have confidence, you play better. W/ that said, I think other things: - Orton may be better in pre-snap reads. Hard to really know for sure, but we did seem to pickup more blitzes w/ Orton under center. While many say that is Kreutz job, it is also the QBs as he has the greater field of vision. You see Orton yelling more than just signals at the OL. It is quite possible he is simply better in the pre-snap reads, and thus the OL and RBs are more ready for the blitzes that are coming. - I said this before, but I just don't think the defenses are blitzing Orton as much as they do Rex. When Rex is under center, defenses send the kitchen sink. This is a gamble by the defense, because in doing so, you are also leaving yourself exposed, but put the pressure on the QB to make the defense pay for their aggressive tactic. That's why D's doing send the sink at every QB, because most NFL QBs will find the hot reads and make defense suffer for playing too aggressive. Rex has never seemed capable of doing this, but Orton was finding the hot receivers, and this could be forcing defenses to play our passing game more honest. Thus w/ fewer blitzes and pass rusher, the OL is simply going to look better. - Did you notice Orton move in the pocket. Sometimes it is nothing more than taking one step forward in the pocket, or sliding a step to the side, but it avoid the rush. A DE rushing to the outside ends up way out of position when the QB can simply take a step up in the pocket. Rex rarely seems to have the pocket presence to do this, and thus is doing his OL no favors. I really think it is more than one thing. While the confidence level of the OL may be a factor, I honestly think the greater factor is simply the difference in pocket presence between the two QBs, and the ability to read defenses.

But did you notice the D after halftime. Even Aikman talked about how they looked like Lovie or someone had a talk w/ them about their play, as they came out looking more intense. Problem is, while they looked more intense and seemed to be playing very hard, they were still giving up yards and big plays.

You expect pessimism from me, so I don't want to disappoint you:) First, before you just trash me for not being capable of enjoying anything, I have really been praising Orton, and other aspects of the offense. The offense was a shining light. But.... I've got to believe this D will come around. I refuse to believe they got old and can't do it. They looked that way last night as they made J.T. look like Elway. I expect they'll bring it when the season starts. First, I would say no one is saying our D suddenly got old. The issue on the D is nothing close to the OL. W/ that said, how many of the problems we are seeing are the same ones we have seen for some time, and the same some of us have been talking about for a while now? - Rivera/Babich - We can blame injuries for last year, but the one other significant change between 2006 and 2007 was the change at DC. Many here choose to believe our problems on D were just about injuries, and coaching was not a factor. Some felt it was. But now we are healthy, and through 3 preseason games, our D has not looked good. Not only are our backups, who we all consider starter quality, getting beaten, but our starters are getting hammered like a nail. Worse, backups are hammering our starters. In Seattle, I don't recall Hasselbeck being in the game. And O'Sullivan? This defense is healthy, and I think it is time to start wondering if the problems are not greater than simply health. - tackling - Even the broadcaster talked about this last night. Our tackling is getting pathetic. Now they also talked about how hard it is to work on at this level, but I think the true point is, this is such an issue that it is seen in every game, and being called out on a weekly basis. It isn't just the young players, but the veterans as well. For the 3rd game in a row, veterans like Briggs, urlacher and even Mike Brown have been looking quite poor in tackling. Missed tackles are really hurting us as we are allowing a would be 2 or 3 yard gain to become a 12 or 13 yard gain and first down. This is a big reason why our defense is allowing sustained drives through 3 preseason games. - Cover 2 - I have seen arguments both ways, but has our cover 2 simply been figured out? Yes, I realize a few other teams use the cover 2, but do they use exactly as we do? Do they not mix it up more, like we did back when Rivera was our DC? Last night, I watched our zone coverage getting picked apart. No name WRs were finding HUGE holes in the zone, and a no name QB was easily hitting them. What scares me even more is how quickly it seemed they were able to find these holes. Its one thing when a QB sits in the pocket and has all day. But WRs seemed like they were very quickly finding and getting into holes in our zone. Our DL was getting pretty solid push/penetration last night, but WRs were getting open too quickly, and though our DL was capable of getting pressure, they were not able to finish as the QB had openings to throw the ball. - Tillman - Man, he has looked pretty bad. His coverage this preseason has been just bad. He did make one GREAT play against the run on the goal line, but also was partially the cause of a TD. Do you all remember when he blitzed, and was chasing Sullivan toward the sideline? Then Tillman either dove or tripped. Once Sully no longer had Tillman chasing, he stopped and was able to step into a pass downfield for a score. If Tillman keeps his feet, there is absolutely no chance Sullivan can pull up and step into his throw as he did. Maybe he can try to sling it downfield, but he would have to do it on the run and throwing sideways. - Thus far, our safeties suck in coverage, and that included Mike Brown. W/ Brown, I still have some blind hope, but McGowan is freaking awful. On that one TD, McGowan was standing in the back of the endzone, and I couldn't figure out what the hell he was doing. From where he was standing, it was just too easy for a receiver to run to the goal line and turn for the catch. McGowan was simply out of position to make a play on most any route run, and was also late in running to the receiver that did enter the endzone. We may have veterans in the secondary, but right now, they are looking pretty darn bad. - Once again, we are getting gashed by cut back runs, as well as the QB moving outside the pocket. This just doesn't make sense to me as we always seem to harp on staying in your lanes and gap control, but it seems like we are exposing ourselves to cut backs and roll outs every down. Look, there is no question we are loaded w/ talent on defense. I have said this before, but if we go off the depth chart on paper, we have maybe the #1 D in the league. But what i have seen thus far, and I have to think its Babich/Lovie, this is not a top defense and may not be much better than above average.

I would put it this way. SF may not have a great D, but they have a legit NFL defense. While we will face better during the season, we will also face worse, so playing well against them does mean something. For me, I came away from this more impressed by Orton than any other aspect. As I have said elsewhere, I was not that impressed w/ the OL. I am NOT trashing them, but I think their play was not that good, but for once, QB play hid OL defeciences. How often has that been the case? But Orton looked great. He moved up and around in the pocket to guy and extra second, and found open receivers. He didn't seem to be staring down his receivers, and went through his reads, rather than look at the #1 read then dump it off. He was looking downfield, and taking more risks than most expected. His passes were not always 100% perfectly placed, but I would argue he made the right decisions, and put the ball in a place for the WRs to make a play on it. Davis would come in a close 2nd on the impressive scale. I think there is still a lot of issues on offense, but I do also think Orton "right now" seems like a player who can give us a chance.

Just to go one better, Babich is largely a Lovie clone, running Lovie's system. Rivera was run out of town, IMHO, because he didn't run Lovie's system as much as Lovie wanted. He was use the cover two, but also used other defenses and styles. A great example might be the NO playoff game our SB season. In that game, we didn't run the cover two. We didn't play zone. We played man coverage, and shut NO down. I read many times how NO was stunned by the defense we ran, as they geared the plan to attack the cover two. When we went w/ man, they were baffled and never recovered. If Rivera wasn't the DC, does anyone think we would have played man coverage or gone away from the cover two?

Could you, or anyone, tell how much Booker even played? I just wonder if he is getting as many reps, as it is possible coaches are playing the other receivers more as they "feel" they know what to expect from booker, but don't know what to expect from others. I am not in favor of cutting Booker, but will at the same time admit, the play of Davis in camp and tonight makes me think it wouldn't hurt as bad as expected.

Actually, Rex did get a chunk of pressure the SB season. Not at first. In the first month, he was untouchable, but after the Minny game, teams started to attack him far more, and he was pressured. I agree though that Orton may call better. Anoher possibility is teams just don't attack Orton as much as Rex. Teams simply believe Rex folds under pressure, but if defenses attacked most QBs the way they do Rex, they would too often get burned. I think Orton hits the hot route receiver better, and thus defenses may simply not be attacking him quite like they do Rex.

Not in favor of trading KJ, as I think (a) we need depth and ( as good as Forte looks, I think it better for him to have a back who can share the load to keep him fresh. Especially as our RBs are likely to take a pounding. And while you may be thinking of Wolfe, and I like the pop he can bring, I am not sold he should be a #2. As for the DT idea, I was not in favor of it before, but w/ the way Idonije has played, I might be more in favor of it, though I question what Adams would bring in trade.

I was about to say similar. Look. I NEVER meant to attack Rex. In fact, this began when I was saying I felt bad for him. I think the fans reaction to him was total garbage. Even though I said, and feel, he seems more isolated on the sideline, I didn't mean he was doing it because he is a jerk. Again, it is more of a "feel bad for him" thing as it just seems he is disconnected from his teamates. I am NOT saying it is intention, on his part or anyones. Only that it seems there, and it is too bad, as I agree, he is a good guy. While I didn't want him as the starter, he has never shown anything but solid character, though the injuries and hate he has suffered. So while it seemed to go down that direction, I NEVER meant this as an attack on Rex. The original intent was that I felt bad for him, and while I know he won't be cut, I almost wish he were as I believe there is nothing for him in Chicago, but maybe there is elsewhere.

Sorry, but I hate this argument. As fans, we can only go off what we have. We are not at the practices, in the locker room, on the bus/plane, or whatever. We can only go off what we see. Your right that it is bits and pieces, and I NEVER said anything was for a fact. Only my speculation. But in the past, Rex always seemed to the center of attention among players on the sidelines. He was always talking to staff. Today, he simply never seemed to be in camera shot. When two of your three QBs are huddled talking to the coach, I think it fair to wonder where the 3rd QB is.

One, yea I heard Aikman. But did you also hear them talk about how Rex told the coaches how he disagreed w/ their decision and "voiced his displeasure". Also, while Aikman tells nice stories, I have to also go w/ what my eyes see, and my eyes did not see Rex socializing a lot w/ the players, and i am talking about before he entered the game. Oh yea, and the great Aikman. We are talking about the same guy who, during the broadcast was saying how McKie has been bouncing around from several teams and was looking to earn a starting spot w/ the bears. Um, hasn't he been our starter? Two, you quickly dismiss Tank, Rivera and Moose, but let me ask you this. Who is more likely to tell the truth. Players who are still w/ the team or players no longer part of the org? IMHO, while it may have been crappy to do, you are more likely to hear truth from those outside the org, while those within are more likely to rally around their own.