Chris Williams...

[Mongo3451]

I keep hearing about him trying LT again. Personally, I think he has the tools to succeed, but hasn't had too much of a shot. Play pro's and con's, coming into his fourth year, he hasn't stayed too healthy. On the plus side, he's smart, has quick feet and pedigree. I want the Carimi to the left talk to stop. He is a prototypical right tackle. Plus, he makes a nasty companion to our nasty RG Louis. Just sayin', give the kid a shot. Make Webb the swing tackle and draft a nasty G and C. One to start, one to groom.

[flea]

Have to believe the plan is for Williams & Webb to fight it out in camp for the LT spot

[Stinger226]

I keep hearing about him trying LT again. Personally, I think he has the tools to succeed, but hasn't had too much of a shot. Play pro's and con's, coming into his fourth year, he hasn't stayed too healthy. On the plus side, he's smart, has quick feet and pedigree. I want the Carimi to the left talk to stop. He is a prototypical right tackle. Plus, he makes a nasty companion to our nasty RG Louis. Just sayin', give the kid a shot. Make Webb the swing tackle and draft a nasty G and C. One to start, one to groom.

How can you say he hasnt had a shot? It was his position to lose and he kept losing it. Look at the production of the line the last two years, we say that they got better. They sucked in trying to protect Cutler. We move a 7th round pick into his spot because the guy has potenial? We play a guard at RT instead of move him over to the right side. This is not his second year and lets see what we got thing going on. He was suppose to move into the LT spot and stay there 10 years. I think we have given him to many chances and he has failed but not Omilaye failed but lets try again. I think we need to try something new. We can no longer keep trying to retread tires, we need new ones. Cutler gets beat up one more year and he may be wreaked for life, we cant take that chance anymore.

[jason]

How can you say he hasnt had a shot? It was his position to lose and he kept losing it. Look at the production of the line the last two years, we say that they got better. They sucked in trying to protect Cutler. We move a 7th round pick into his spot because the guy has potenial? We play a guard at RT instead of move him over to the right side. This is not his second year and lets see what we got thing going on. He was suppose to move into the LT spot and stay there 10 years. I think we have given him to many chances and he has failed but not Omilaye failed but lets try again. I think we need to try something new. We can no longer keep trying to retread tires, we need new ones. Cutler gets beat up one more year and he may be wreaked for life, we cant take that chance anymore.

 

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. He never "lost" the position.

 

2008: Drafted to play LT. Obviously injured. Fell behind the power curve for the rest of the season.

 

2009: Was slotted to play LT, but got moved to RT for 11 games when the Bears got Pace. Note the words, "flip-flop positions." Then finished up strong the last five games of at LT after Pace sucked.

Game 1 - Chris Long, 3 tackles, 0 sacks.

Game 2 - Clay Matthews, 5 tackles, 1 sack, multiple penalties (his one bad game)

Game 3 - No DE did well, and only 1 sack was given up (Kelly Gregg, a NT)

Game 4 - Jared Allen, 2 tackles, no sacks.

Game 5 - Cliff Avril, 2 tackles, 1 sack

 

2010: Started the first two games at LT, did well. Then injured his hamstring. And instead of keeping him at the position he was drafted for, suited for, and starting in, when he returned from injury Tice moved him to LG because he needed Williams, who was probably the Bears best OLineman, to substitute for Garza (who was injured). And to pour salt in the wound, Tice thought the best starting five included Omiyale at LT. This can't be stressed enough. Williams did not lose the LT spot. Tice made a bad decision because he was worried about replacing Garza at LG. Instead of keeping Williams at LT and finding someone to replace Garza, he went the other way. He finished the season at LG (11 games).

 

2011: Started nine games at LG, got injured vs. the Lions, got placed on IR. Never given a chance at LT.

 

To recap...

2008 - Injured

2009 - Got screwed because of the Pace signing, ended up replacing Pace

2010 - Started LT, got injured, then got screwed because he was versatile and Garza was injured

2011 - Never given a shot at LT while Webb sucked ass

 

He should never have been moved inside in 2010. And he hasn't outlived that poor decision by Tice yet. Williams has never lost the LT position to another player.

[scs787]

Since this thread is basically talking about the Oline what about drafting Kevin Zeitler in the 2nd?

 

Put the 2 Wisconsin guys on the right side, Williams at LT where he should be, Garza obviously at C, then have an open competition for the LG spot...Havent even paid attention to whos actually good on the line so idk who has the leg up on that spot.

[jason]

Since this thread is basically talking about the Oline what about drafting Kevin Zeitler in the 2nd?

 

Put the 2 Wisconsin guys on the right side, Williams at LT where he should be, Garza obviously at C, then have an open competition for the LG spot...Havent even paid attention to whos actually good on the line so idk who has the leg up on that spot.

 

I would love that idea. Liked Zeitler from the get-go. I also happen to think it would maximize the talent on the OL, shore up the LT hole, create a battle for the LG spot between E.Williams and Louis, demote Webb to a backup where he belongs, and create a two-headed monster on the right side between two players intimately familiar with one another.

 

 

[Bears4Ever_34]

A big reason Chris Williams struggled at LT was because his arm length was less than ideal for an offensive lineman. Great arm length is considered to be anywhere from 35 inches and upward. Ryan Clady's arm length measures to 36 inches. Good arm length is around 34 inches. Jeff Otah measures at 34 5/8 inches. Then you get to the bad arm length and that's where Chris Williams falls under. Only 32 and 3/4 inches. Robert Gallery came into the draft measuring out at 32 and 1/4 inches.

 

While arm length certainly isn't the "Be all end all" measurable that qualifies someone as either a good or bad offensive lineman, it's something to think about whenever you are spending a high 1st round draft pick on any offensive lineman. It's like a boxer. The guy with the longer reach has the advantage over the other guy because he has an easier time getting off punches. It works the same way for an offensive lineman. The longer your arms are the easier it is to keep the distance between the defender and the quarterback.

 

[jason]

A big reason Chris Williams struggled at LT was because his arm length was less than ideal for an offensive lineman. Great arm length is considered to be anywhere from 35 inches and upward. Ryan Clady's arm length measures to 36 inches. Good arm length is around 34 inches. Jeff Otah measures at 34 5/8 inches. Then you get to the bad arm length and that's where Chris Williams falls under. Only 32 and 3/4 inches. Robert Gallery came into the draft measuring out at 32 and 1/4 inches.

 

While arm length certainly isn't the "Be all end all" measurable that qualifies someone as either a good or bad offensive lineman, it's something to think about whenever you are spending a high 1st round draft pick on any offensive lineman. It's like a boxer. The guy with the longer reach has the advantage over the other guy because he has an easier time getting off punches. It works the same way for an offensive lineman. The longer your arms are the easier it is to keep the distance between the defender and the quarterback.

 

I don't disagree with the "arm length helps at LT" and in pass-blocking, but where do you get that Chris Williams struggled at LT?

 

2008 - Didn't struggle. Injured.

2009 - Didn't struggle. Replaced Pace at LT.

2010 - Didn't struggle. Got injured at LT. After injury replaced Garza at LG. Never given another shot at LT.

2011 - Didn't struggle. Never given a shot at LT.

 

Other than the 2009 game against the Packers when Matthews made him penalty prone - interestingly enough, it wasn't so bad that we all gave him a nickname like "False Start Frank" - I can't remember him ever really doing poorly or struggling at LT. In fact, I'd say we haven't seen him enough to properly say how well is capable of performing at LT.

[Bears4Ever_34]

I don't disagree with the "arm length helps at LT" and in pass-blocking, but where do you get that Chris Williams struggled at LT?

 

2008 - Didn't struggle. Injured.

2009 - Didn't struggle. Replaced Pace at LT.

2010 - Didn't struggle. Got injured at LT. After injury replaced Garza at LG. Never given another shot at LT.

2011 - Didn't struggle. Never given a shot at LT.

 

Other than the 2009 game against the Packers when Matthews made him penalty prone - interestingly enough, it wasn't so bad that we all gave him a nickname like "False Start Frank" - I can't remember him ever really doing poorly or struggling at LT. In fact, I'd say we haven't seen him enough to properly say how well is capable of performing at LT.

 

While he wasn't given an extended run at tackle (Due to injuries) I feel like he was incredibly inconsistent at it. He doesn't seem to have the agility to go up against speedy edge rushers and part of that is him being slow off the ball. You can see that now when he's in at guard and is asked to pull. I worry about guys beating him off the edge constantly if he were to come back in at tackle, but I suppose it can't be any worse than what we're already getting out of Webb.

[ParkerBear7]

I agree with what jason is stating and would add that Tice did not want to re-shuffle the line again once Williams was healthy and was trying to keep some cohesion left him at LG.

 

It would be a tremendous help to the org if Williams is able to succeed at LT and play at an above averge level. I personally do not think the draft will yield a top LT at 19th and would draft the Center, Konz from Wisconsin and then the best OG prospect in the second or 3rd. A team like GB is in need of a C with losing thiers in FA and thus we will also be blocking them from the top center in the draft.

[Stinger226]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. He never "lost" the position.

 

2008: Drafted to play LT. Obviously injured. Fell behind the power curve for the rest of the season.

 

2009: Was slotted to play LT, but got moved to RT for 11 games when the Bears got Pace. Note the words, "flip-flop positions." Then finished up strong the last five games of at LT after Pace sucked.

Game 1 - Chris Long, 3 tackles, 0 sacks.

Game 2 - Clay Matthews, 5 tackles, 1 sack, multiple penalties (his one bad game)

Game 3 - No DE did well, and only 1 sack was given up (Kelly Gregg, a NT)

Game 4 - Jared Allen, 2 tackles, no sacks.

Game 5 - Cliff Avril, 2 tackles, 1 sack

 

2010: Started the first two games at LT, did well. Then injured his hamstring. And instead of keeping him at the position he was drafted for, suited for, and starting in, when he returned from injury Tice moved him to LG because he needed Williams, who was probably the Bears best OLineman, to substitute for Garza (who was injured). And to pour salt in the wound, Tice thought the best starting five included Omiyale at LT. This can't be stressed enough. Williams did not lose the LT spot. Tice made a bad decision because he was worried about replacing Garza at LG. Instead of keeping Williams at LT and finding someone to replace Garza, he went the other way. He finished the season at LG (11 games).

 

2011: Started nine games at LG, got injured vs. the Lions, got placed on IR. Never given a chance at LT.

 

To recap...

2008 - Injured

2009 - Got screwed because of the Pace signing, ended up replacing Pace

2010 - Started LT, got injured, then got screwed because he was versatile and Garza was injured

2011 - Never given a shot at LT while Webb sucked ass

 

He should never have been moved inside in 2010. And he hasn't outlived that poor decision by Tice yet. Williams has never lost the LT position to another player.

You did your homework except for 2010. They moved him to LG because he was versatile? The most important spot on the line is LT, and that was the heavy sake year. Garza never player LG, he has always been the RG. Look it up.

[AZ54]

You did your homework except for 2010. They moved him to LG because he was versatile? The most important spot on the line is LT, and that was the heavy sake year. Garza never player LG, he has always been the RG. Look it up.

 

I realize LTs make the big money and that's because those that can handle the edge singlehandedly, especially with blitz pickups, are worth it as it frees up another blocker (i.e RB or TE focus elsewhere). However, I'd say to a QB protection up the middle is more important. Even for LTs the most frustrating part is when they get beat to the inside as it gives a short path to the QB. At least if the LT is beaten off the edge and there is room to step up the QB can do that. I'd say if we got a stud OG on the inside with Williams at LT we'd be much better as a line in pass protection and better in the run game than we were last year.

 

As a side note, at 5'10" I"m guessing my arms shouldn't be longer than Chris Williams' but they are and having a wingspan over 6'6" definitely helps me in basketball.

[Stinger226]

I realize LTs make the big money and that's because those that can handle the edge singlehandedly, especially with blitz pickups, are worth it as it frees up another blocker (i.e RB or TE focus elsewhere). However, I'd say to a QB protection up the middle is more important. Even for LTs the most frustrating part is when they get beat to the inside as it gives a short path to the QB. At least if the LT is beaten off the edge and there is room to step up the QB can do that. I'd say if we got a stud OG on the inside with Williams at LT we'd be much better as a line in pass protection and better in the run game than we were last year.

 

As a side note, at 5'10" I"m guessing my arms shouldn't be longer than Chris Williams' but they are and having a wingspan over 6'6" definitely helps me in basketball.

If Martin or Adams isnt there, going with a bluechip OG would be acceptable. You just cant ignore the line. It is the key to all we have to do going forward offensively. We were 7-3 but we ended up 8-8, that what we need to look at. we have enough in the mix to get by inside, it is hard to hide the outside positions without chip help. Now is the time to fix it. We still need WRs but not at the expense of fixing the OL.

[jason]

You did your homework except for 2010. They moved him to LG because he was versatile? The most important spot on the line is LT, and that was the heavy sake year. Garza never player LG, he has always been the RG. Look it up.

 

Click the link I provided. It explicitly states he replaced Garza at LG. On top of that, Garza's Pro Football Reference page states his position in 2010 as LG/RG. You might also want to check out the camp report from Bourbonnais that year, where the switch from right side to left side is discussed. Here's an article that actually reports of playing time on the left. Yet another article showing the move.

 

Homework done. Extra credit done.

 

LT is more important, but when Garza went down Tice had Williams coming back, and he had to shuffle the deck to fit things as he thought they best fit. Was he wrong? Certainly he was wrong on Omiyale. Williams probably should have gone back to LT. It was Williams' versatility, or maybe Tice's low opinion of him, that caused the move inside.

[Lucky Luciano]

You did your homework except for 2010. They moved him to LG because he was versatile? The most important spot on the line is LT, and that was the heavy sake year. Garza never player LG, he has always been the RG. Look it up.

 

just to set the record straight...

 

2003 atlanta 8 games started at LG

2004 atlanta 15 games started at LG

2005 chicago 7 games started at LG - covering an injured reuben brown

 

2006 chicago moved to RG to replace the fabulous hole of fame player terrence metcalf when r. brown returned to LG.

2007-2009 chicago RG

2010 played LG and RG

2011 replaced an aging all-pro center in kreutz.

 

garza in my opinion is an average center at the very best. we should have gone after a stop-gap center who was a lot better like wells or the guy from the texans. this would have improved the all important center position and moved garza back to guard where he is better and give us a lot of depth until we can draft a replacement.

[Stinger226]

Click the link I provided. It explicitly states he replaced Garza at LG. On top of that, Garza's Pro Football Reference page states his position in 2010 as LG/RG. You might also want to check out the camp report from Bourbonnais that year, where the switch from right side to left side is discussed. Here's an article that actually reports of playing time on the left. Yet another article showing the move.

 

Homework done. Extra credit done.

 

LT is more important, but when Garza went down Tice had Williams coming back, and he had to shuffle the deck to fit things as he thought they best fit. Was he wrong? Certainly he was wrong on Omiyale. Williams probably should have gone back to LT. It was Williams' versatility, or maybe Tice's low opinion of him, that caused the move inside.

You are absoulutely on top of it.

[jason]

You are absoulutely on top of it.

 

Thanks! I would hope so since I've felt OL was the #1 area of need for roughly 5 years running.

[Mongo3451]

Thanks! I would hope so since I've felt OL was the #1 area of need for roughly 5 years running.

Thanks for carrying the torch Jason. Great job.

[madlithuanian]

I admire the consistency!

 

 

Thanks for carrying the torch Jason. Great job.