Fire Nagy

[BearFan PHX]

In the example above, Trubisky had a clean pocket.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

1 hour ago, BearFan NYC said:

In the example above, Trubisky had a clean pocket.

If it is the same clip I saw elsewhere - bad mechanics or not, he threw a TD pass. Kmet just dropped the ball. Period.  It was one of two drops on nicely thrown balls on that first series - that should have been TD's. Do they change the game...probably not, but it might have been a 4TD / 2 INT type of performance.  I'd of course say he could have just as easily had a 3 TD / 3 INT day.  

[Mongo3451]

14 hours ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

If it is the same clip I saw elsewhere - bad mechanics or not, he threw a TD pass. Kmet just dropped the ball. Period.  It was one of two drops on nicely thrown balls on that first series - that should have been TD's. Do they change the game...probably not, but it might have been a 4TD / 2 INT type of performance.  I'd of course say he could have just as easily had a 3 TD / 3 INT day.  

It was and it was.  Trubisky gets on his toes because he wants the ball to release as high as possible.  Orlovsky knows he's being a sick with his analysis.  Trubisky doesn't lead Kmet because it becomes triple coverage.  His only mistake is that the pass should have been 2 feet to the right.  He shouldn't of missed it, but he have Kmet a chance and it's his job to win.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

8 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

Trubisky doesn't lead Kmet because it becomes triple coverage.  His only mistake is that the pass should have been 2 feet to the right. 

Really the mechanics that Orlovsky talks about is spot on.  Trubiskys been plagued with throwing on a bad base for most of his career. That’s why most of his mid-long range passes don’t hit their mark.  He does exactly as Orlovsky says and doesn’t set his feet. If he did, he could have stepped into the throw with more force and accuracy.  Cutler was the same way but he had more pure arm strength and could really send it, good base or not.  Was it within Kmet’s ‘range or wingspan’? Yes.  But as you suggest had he led him then he would’ve been more vulnerable to the turnover. Which is the other part of Trubiksys play.  He locks onto players and only focuses on his first read; or does it a lot. 
 

In this same play he had a second and third option in Graham in the back right corner of the end zone and Mooney to his left with single coverage. Graham’s movement set him up for a post pattern to allow Trubiksy throw a toss to the back corner for him to try and get one on one; something he’s done for years. The other was Mooney who I believe was breaking right (towards Mitch) on a slant or dig and had broken open (at least it looks that way early in the play) with coverage trailing.  Robinson was replicating that move in closer from the slot and had gotten the attention of Mooneys inside coverage. Lastly when you look at the line protection a small hole had broken open to Trubiksys left (Guard/Center) gap where he could’ve probably ran in or at least made a significant gain (although I don’t remember what down and distance it was at the time).  

[Mongo3451]

2 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

In this same play he had a second and third option 

He didn't need a second and third option.  He knew he had exactly what he wanted and failed to execute perfectly.

[adam]

For the Orlovsky review, it is easy to do the same thing for every QB in the league. The difference are the playmakers on the other side. Do you know how many times Mahomes has thrown a ball that was short, behind, ahead of the target and yet the receiver (Hill, Kelce, Hardiman, Watson, etc) make a ridiculous catch, then get huge YAC. 

Orlovsky was a main component of the 0-16 Lions, so his voice only carries so much weight. Do you want some guy doing your investments who graduated with an MBA, was hired at Schwab, then fired a few later for being terrible at his job giving you investment advice?

[BearFan PHX]

we can shoot the messenger all we like, but Trubisky is not a good QB, and part of his problem is mechanics, which is something anyone of any talent level could fix with discipline and concentration.

Similarly, no matter how good or bad Leno is, if he is trying to block the wrong guy, it doesnt matter, and even pee wee football players can be taught how to figure out who theyre supposed to be blocking.

This all comes down either to drafting people without the mental abilities to learn how to play football or epic failure of coaching. Or Both.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

5 hours ago, adam said:

 

Orlovsky was a main component of the 0-16 Lions, so his voice only carries so much weight. Do you want some guy doing your investments who graduated with an MBA, was hired at Schwab, then fired a few later for being terrible at his job giving you investment advice?

Is a neurosurgeon still a doctor if he/she graduates at the bottom of their class in medical school? Or an attorney if they graduate at the bottom of their class at Harvard Law?  From the outset I said I was and have never been a fan of Orlovsky.  To me his defining moment was when he unknowingly ran out of the back of the end zone.  That being said, not only did he play in the NFL but four years of college ball in that position.  Still his observation on that play is accurate for what’s illed Mitch for his career.  And since this string is more about Nagy than Trubisky, this inability to ‘get ready’ in three years and with 5 weeks off to work on his skills is more on Nagy.  Himself a college QB and IFL vet.  

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 hours ago, BearFan NYC said:

We can shoot the messenger all we like, but Trubisky is not a good QB, and part of his problem is mechanics, which is something anyone of any talent level could fix with discipline and concentration.

Yep.  And some help from the coach. 

[BearFan PHX]

25 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Yep.  And some help from the coach. 

right. no coaching, and no ability to develop.

Also, having just watched the last 20 minutes of the Lions game. Fire Nagy today.

[Bears4Ever_34]

He and Pace are definitely getting fired now, right?

What an embarrassing way to lose a game. 

[adam]

They have to be fired, there is no point keeping them around. If I was this bad at my job I would've been fired weeks ago. Complete incompetence.

[Stinger226]

Now hopefully we lose the rest of the games so there is no question they get fired. better draft pick. A top 10 pick should get us a QB or OT. 

[adam]

On 11/1/2020 at 7:29 PM, adam said:

The skill of the players has overcome inept coaching for the last few years. It is so clear to see out on the field. Nagy replaced Trubisky with Foles and now after a few games, it is clear that QB was not the problem. If Nagy is unwilling to have someone else take over playcalling and admit fault (which started in KC), he needs to be fired. 

If he is willing to do that, then he can stay on as the HC. Otherwise, I am done with him. I don't care about the record, we are underachieving. 

Holy crap, I can't believe my original post was from November 1st. It's crazy that it's literally the same old song and dance every week. What a shit show. How is this guy still employed? Let him say his goodbyes in the locker room tonight and announce he is gone tomorrow. Same with Pagano and Pace. They have to go. There is no point waiting until the end of the year. Let Lazor run the offense, an Asst get experience as DC and put Defilipo as Interim HC.

[Uncle Buck]

We know the Bears don’t do the in season thing but wouldn’t a immediate house cleaning give a more hopeful message? Pace and Nagy go and George puts Sweaty Teddy in a  honorary role, away from real operations? There’s enough respected minds out there that George could turn to take Ted’s role and let that person get a GM. What the hell do they have to lose?

[BearFan PHX]

14 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

We know the Bears don’t do the in season thing but wouldn’t a immediate house cleaning give a more hopeful message? Pace and Nagy go and George puts Sweaty Teddy in a  honorary role, away from real operations? There’s enough respected minds out there that George could turn to take Ted’s role and let that person get a GM. What the hell do they have to lose?

Yes, if you're going to fire Pace, you have to FINALLY remove Ted from his role too. HE is the common variable. He's had his fun. Decades of it. And the results are clear. Enough.

[Bill]

So just watched the game on gamepass condensed version.  So many plays left on the field.  Not going to question any  players or coaches.  I will always say they bust their asses on every play.   This team just does not have enough play makers

Goes back to the GM

Does  it seem most of the catches from arob he's always falling down.  .

 I don't think most of us will ever see a real franchise compete over multiple years.

[adam]

5 minutes ago, Bill said:

So just watched the game on gamepass condensed version.  So many plays left on the field.  Not going to question any  players or coaches.  I will always say they bust their asses on every play.   This team just does not have enough play makers

Goes back to the GM

Does  it seem most of the catches from arob he's always falling down.  .

 I don't think most of us will ever see a real franchise compete over multiple years.

On A-Rob, I am assuming he thinks he is going to get hit, so he just jumps and hits the ground. On a few of those, there was no need to. He also literally ran out of bounds a yard short with the defender on the ground. I don't know how he doesn't pick that 1st down up. 

You are correct on Pace, and there are just too many examples. Miller never lived up to his trade and draft status, while others around him are now elite (McLaurin, Metcalf, etc). Mooney is ok as a WR3, but he is a WR2 on the Bears. ARob is a great possession guy, but he literally gave away 2 balls that turned into INTs. Kmet, even though he scored is a bust so far,  he is on pace to have less production than Shaheen in his rookie year while his college teammate Claypool, who the Bears could've drafted tears it up every week.

The O-Line is looking better but is still a bottom-10 unit. 

The plays on the field are mainly due to Trubisky's inability to read the defense and dissect the play. If you watch 95% of his passes are to his first read, he is going there regardless. He has some of the worst mechanics and has zero touch. There is no way he ever gets better than this, it just is who he is as a player. There is no way he is back. 

The defense is now the most overpaid and overrated unit in the league. Mack and Quinn are the highest-paid OLB duo and now are in the bottom half of the league in terms of production. Fuller and Johnson's play has really dropped off and the Safeties are terrible. Jackson looks like he avoiding contact now. Outside of one tackle, Skrine sucks. Roquan is about the only one I would keep. All the others can be traded. Hicks is getting old and is barely noticeable anymore. It is really a sad state of affairs right now.

Pace is the first to go, but he needs to take Phillips, Nagy, and Pagano with him. Take Ragone too. It is truly a clown show.

 

[adam]

7 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Is a neurosurgeon still a doctor if he/she graduates at the bottom of their class in medical school? Or an attorney if they graduate at the bottom of their class at Harvard Law?  From the outset I said I was and have never been a fan of Orlovsky.  To me his defining moment was when he unknowingly ran out of the back of the end zone.  That being said, not only did he play in the NFL but four years of college ball in that position.  Still his observation on that play is accurate for what’s illed Mitch for his career.  And since this string is more about Nagy than Trubisky, this inability to ‘get ready’ in three years and with 5 weeks off to work on his skills is more on Nagy.  Himself a college QB and IFL vet.  

Again if those guys got fired for being terrible, would you want advice from them? Not me. There are too many examples of complete idiots with degrees from Ivy League schools, so that means absolutely nothing. I am just saying his observations are either blatantly obvious or completely subjective, or both. Also, if you watch any other games, you will see all QBs make plays where their feet are not set, or are doing something else that is not mechanically sound. When it looks like bad throw, it is easy to point that out almost every time. That observation brings nothing to the conversation. 

The mechanics are on Trubisky and the QB Coach. The HC does not have time to worry about mechanics. Trubisky, in year 4, should not have the same problems year after year. That just points to a bad QB. He is Bortles 2.0. In reality, Bortles is a better QB. He hit 4,400 passing yards his 2nd season with 35 TDs to 18 INTs and rushed for over 300 yds. Trubisky's highs are 3200 passing yards and 24 TDs in his 2nd season. The difference has been Bortles played on some terrible teams with no defense while Trubisky was carried by the defense. 

[Bill]

"There is no way he is back. "

Just found that somewhat revealing.  Has he ever been"there"?  

Just a whole team failure and time to move on no matter what direction.   Reset and try again.
 

[adam]

13 minutes ago, Bill said:

"There is no way he is back. "

Just found that somewhat revealing.  Has he ever been"there"?  

Just a whole team failure and time to move on no matter what direction.   Reset and try again.
 

We have been longing for this sustained success, got the new Offensive Guru, with new QB, and a top 5 defense. The arrow was pointing up. It was all hollow though. That 2018 was a fluke that used Fangio's defense and a ton of turnovers (not sustainable) to win 12 games and come within a double doink from advancing in the playoffs. Then the team came back down to earth and you could tell the overall team quality was lower due to lack of draft capital. Then we start 5-1 and there is renewed optimism, but now have lost 6 straight games for the first time in 18 years. Think of how many bad teams the Bears have had since 2002 and this is the first one to lose 6 straight since then. 

Nagy was a fake. He talked a good game, but that was it. He was way over his head as a HC and probably even as a Coordinator. Pagano's defense was never great, he just had great players, especially in Baltimore. Here? There are some lazy SOBs that got paid and decided to go through the motions. Jackson, Mack, Quinn all got big money have done nothing. Goldman got paid then sat out. Leno has been a turd every since he got his big contract. It is all over the team. 

The new regime really needs to clean house. I would take anything to get Mack, Quinn and few other contracts off the books. Trade them all, keep Smith on defense and Monty on offense. Take any offer for Mack, Quinn, Hicks, Fuller, Jackson, cut Skrine, Massie, Graham, Leno, franchise ARob, then trade him too. Cut Miller, Wims, and Coward. 

We definitely need a reboot and with the reduced cap, next year is the perfect year to do it.

 

[Stinger226]

9 hours ago, BearFan NYC said:

Yes, if you're going to fire Pace, you have to FINALLY remove Ted from his role too. HE is the common variable. He's had his fun. Decades of it. And the results are clear. Enough.

I dont think they fire Ted, just keep him to the business side and hire a football guy to run the operation and keep Ted and George out of any decisions. If you break down the team, our weaknesses are OL and QB. Those fall on Pace. Nagy has not progressed as a coach, he seems to get worse. I think his biggest flaw is not adapting to players instead of being in love with his scheme. We need a GM that builds the lines and can find a QB. The 2 most successful teams in the league over the years has been Pitt and NE. They had long standing quality QBs of which has changed for NE and soon for Pitt. I think we would have been better off if we ended up with Fangio as the coach than the great offensive mind of Nagy. At least the defense would have been more consistent.  The problem with a change next year is the hit to the cap space from the virus and some bloated contracts that will be hard to get rid of . We are on a sinking ship that doesnt have a rescue for a couple of years. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

16 hours ago, adam said:

I am just saying his observations are either blatantly obvious or completely subjective, or both.

Of course it’s “obvious and subjective” it all is.  Who has given an expert analysis of Trubiksy that says he’ll be an HOF QB?  Aside from Pace maybe. 
 

Is Mel Kiper an expert at predicting draft picks and their success?  He sure gets paid like he is.  Are his observations “obvious or subjective”?  It’s well recorded the misses he’s made at his predictions; Harrington, Dave Carr and JeMarcus Russell among them. Talking football is all about analytics and supposition based on those statistics.  Statistics are only as good as you want them to be, or as bad as they are.  The point I made about Orlovsky is that he’s ‘been there done that’ and can lend some insight to the position much better than I or maybe you can.  I didn’t say HE was good at the position just that he’s played it.  
 

I was thinking about what you said while watching highlights yesterday and looking at players like Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers and Murray.  All QBs who are mobile and quite often don’t have their feet set while throwing.  A few of them have been around awhile while a few others are more recent arrivals to the game.  But their ability to throw on the run (not have their feet set) has been successful (so far) due to their being able to see more of the field and throw to open receivers.  Something Trubisky lacks.   The combination of him throwing non-effectual passes (short, long or mid-range) to his primary read every time is a recipe for failure. 
 

Lastly, Nagy was brought in largely to make Trubiksy a successful QB in his system. It’s well documented Fox didn’t want Trubiksy when he was drafted.   Trubsikys failure to run Nagys system ultimately falls on Nagy and Paces shoulders.  

[adam]

Just now, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Of course it’s “obvious and subjective” it all is.  Who has given an expert analysis of Trubiksy that says he’ll be an HOF QB?  Aside from Pace maybe. 
 

Is Mel Kiper an expert at predicting draft picks and their success?  He sure gets paid like he is.  Are his observations “obvious or subjective”?  It’s well recorded the misses he’s made at his predictions; Harrington, Dave Carr and JeMarcus Russell among them. Talking football is all about analytics and supposition based on those statistics.  Statistics are only as good as you want them to be, or as bad as they are.  The point I made about Orlovsky is that he’s ‘been there done that’ and can lend some insight to the position much better than I or maybe you can.  I didn’t say HE was good at the position just that he’s played it.  
 

I was thinking about what you said while watching highlights yesterday and looking at players like Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers and Murray.  All QBs who are mobile and quite often don’t have their feet set while throwing.  A few of them have been around awhile while a few others are more recent arrivals to the game.  But their ability to throw on the run (not have their feet set) has been successful (so far) due to their being able to see more of the field and throw to open receivers.  Something Trubisky lacks.   The combination of him throwing non-effectual passes (short, long or mid-range) to his primary read every time is a recipe for failure. 
 

Lastly, Nagy was brought in largely to make Trubiksy a successful QB in his system. It’s well documented Fox didn’t want Trubiksy when he was drafted.   Trubsikys failure to run Nagys system ultimately falls on Nagy and Paces shoulders.  

Well I agree on Kiper, he is nothing more than a super fan. On Orlovsky, yes he has been there and done that but was so bad and the team he was on was historically bad that I don't know if that experience is in any way helpful for a guy to then critique other QBs on things he did but worse. It is like pointing out that Rivers throws the ball like a shotput when he makes a bad throw, that is not really analysis or useful.  So for him to take the time to post a video of Trubisky with bad footwork on a bad throw that actually hit Kmet in the chest is a waste of time. 

You are spot on about the other QBs. They can throw from any body position or motion with the same accuracy as they do from traditional drop back. That is what sets them apart from the rest that cannot do that. I like your point about seeing the field, because Trubisky has tunnel vision and doesn't see the whole field, ever. That's why you saw the team cut the field in half for him a lot early on with designed rollouts and bootlegs, so all he had to worry about was 2-3 defenders and 2 receivers. 

I don't disagree, Pace made the wrong pick, then didnt address the O-Line, and drafted questionable offensive talent. Shaheen was a bust, Cohen is very gadgety, Miller is a bust, Ridley and Wims never amounted to anything. So Monty and Mooney were the only two that were worthy picks. Nagy is definitely responsible as well. Foles struggling was his death sentence. It never was all on Trubisky, and that was on full display week in and week out with Foles under center. Nagy's offensive scheme was so bad that not even another play caller could do anything because the problem was the entire scheme is a joke. It is so predictable and any motion or wrinkles seem to confuse the offense more than the defense. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

40 minutes ago, adam said:

Ridley and Wims never amounted to anything.

I still think there’s hope for these two guys.  Ridleys brother was who Pace wanted the year he ‘settled’ for Wims.  Who did pretty well considering his background. And Riley  I think hasn’t had much opportunity because a) they were determined to let Miller do well (aka prove themselves right) and b ) the QB issue.  Maybe when the dust settles, Arob is traded and Miller is cut or whatever they and Mooney will be the only ones left(?)