BearFan PHX

I called this years ago. Looks like I was right. http://www.talkbears.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9587

Thanks!

hahaha me too!

I've said this before, but there is an incredibly common belief that if you push people hard enough, or replace them, perfection is possible. It's like putting a gun to a stock broker's head and demanding the price of gold one month from now. Yes you've motivated him, but no, he still cannot predict the future. There is a skill for example to playing poker. The best players show up in the tournaments over and over, but they do not win every hand. Not by a long shot. We see them succeed by taking good risks, and having the big bets pay off more often than not. Damning Pace for cutting Gould for example is a mistake. At the time he'd missed a bunch of kicks, seemed to be declining, and had a cap number WAY out of line for a kicker. It made sense to cut him. That the other player drew that missing card to fill the inside straight is too bad, but it was still the right bet at the time. Same with Glennon and Trubisky. He went out and made sure we had a QB. He hedged bets, and spent draft picks. Ive heard people here say with certainty that Trubisky would be there at #3. But we know the Browns were trying to trade up, and we have heard that they were offering us packages too. I think if Trubisky blossoms next year, it won't look so bad. And Trubisky was picked a year early. He wasn't ripe. They needed an interim guy. Glennon was pursued by more than one team, and that tells you other GMs thought he was worth something too. If Pace had put all his eggs into the Glennon basket, then yes, he would be a bad GM. But he didn't. He didn't see that role for him. He wanted insurance against Trubisky needing a red shirt year. Free agency isn't how you build a franchise. You always overpay for talent that's not so young in that game. To expect that every Free Agent is going to be a pro bowler is nuts. Especially when they don't sign for Pro Bowl dollars. It's very easy to be the fan that says everyone is stupid. It's a tradition. We yell at the TV and it's astonishing that these highly paid people are SO dumb isn't it? Could it be instead that it's MUCH harder than it looks, and simply pointing to a bad play and saying "that is bad" is VERY different than locating players you can afford to fir your scheme as you build? I know Fox is gone. We were lucky to have him as a babysitter while we started building. Now it's time for a new coach to take the next step with. Pace is doing fine. He's drafted quite a few players who will be very good for us, and identified players to extend from our roster. Soon we will have a team, something we haven't seen in a long time. I don't just mean that they will be good, I mean that they will have been developed from inside, the way the Packers, Patriots and other solid franchises do it. If in 2 or 3 years we are still terrible, then Pace will be judged. Right now, he's doing pretty well in my book.

+1

Oh it's rare, but I gotta say it when we agree. Jason, you are correct.

Interesting. Plus he led the greatest comeback in NFL history

Remember all the blown coverages and huge missed tackles the first few weeks of the season? They were ALL Demps. If theyre doing due diligence, or keeping depth so be it, but I dont want to see that guy starting again unless an injury forces it.

I just see that Fox makes terrible choices in time management, and replay challenges. It seems like he isnt smart enough to really do a great job. I think he gets people, and we were lucky to have him as we began to build this culture, but I also think we can find a better coach now at this point.

Here's a different take on Fox. I think we were LUCKY to have him. Yes, I see everything you all see too. And yes, I think it's time for him to go. But realize this was a rebuilding project, and we wanted a legit coach to change the culture and begin to install the Parcells tree 3-4 etc. Consider also that no one would have wanted this job, knowing that they would look awful for at least 2 years and probably get fired before the fruit ripened. So yes, it's time for Fox to go. I hope we can keep Fangio, but if not, so be it. But we were lucky to get this staff for the last 3 years, and now we are in a position to get a better coach with a different mission who can build on the culture that Fox taught here, and is shared by the Parcells tree coaches. That kind of lasting culture is what makes teams stable and strong. Pace is doing well. He got us a great interim coach, and now he has a chance to get us the guy to take the next step.

I think thats when players feel slighted, when they wanted to be there and they got traded or cut instead. This guy wanted out. Hes got no passion.

LOL they draft sign Trubisky to be the backup, they clearly drafted him to be the starter of the future, and therefore they didnt think Glennon would be the franchise QB. I think we agree, since you speak of "the plan"?

We agree!

Totally agree. Forgot to even mention Bullard. If Floyd and Bullard come on, this team is dangerous on D.

Agree with almost all of this, but Demps is awful. All those broken plays the first few weeks were on him. I'm never glad to see anyone injured, but I am glad he is out of the lineup, and dont ever really want to see him in there again. That guy will lose games for you. The rest tho? Absolutely, the secondary is starting to look decent. The whole defense is coming together. I'd like to see Floyd step up some too.

I think this is dead on. I agree completely.

Precisely.

Exactly. You said it better than I did.

I agree with all of that.

And here it is in a nutshell. You need to understand the difference between who a player can become and who they are at the moment of drafting. You're conflating the two into an oversimplified argument. IF a player has a good shot to be a franchise QB in a year or two, but might need some time to develop, then you might take them high, and still give them a minute to develop. Your argument is that a player like that should be taken lower. You assume that it's easy to find a franchise QB, and only one ready to go is worth taking. PAce saw a different route. If Trubisky flourishes, then Pace was right. thats all.

YES!

yeah cuz I laid out the scenarios that supported that conclusion. Mostly Im talking about Jason here. I sure hope Trubisky lights it up Monday night, but even if he starts slowly, and isn't great this year, I am excited to see the player I hope he will become.

Some on this board argue that if you are the #2 pick, then you are ready to start in the NFL. They say if you arent, then you shouldnt be the #2 pick. This totally discounts the scenario where a player has incredible upside, but maybe only started 13 games in college. You can say #2 = starter in all cases, but that's overgeneralizing, and misses the specific scenario we and Pace were in. In reality, each situation is different, and it is possible that a player is worthy of the #2 pick and not ready to start immediately, this is especially true in the situation of a possible future franchise quarterback who is a green and might need some time. Given also that he didnt play under center much, they didnt know at the time how long it might take for him to be comfortable receiving the snap. The fact is that Trubisky is starting Monday night in large part because Glennon has been awful. Had Glennon been solid but unspectacular, Trubisky might not be starting yet, even if we had lost 3 games. That Trubisky has developed faster than people thought he might is a sign that Pace made a GOOD choice, but somehow people want to twist it around. I know the meatheaded football arguer type. They cling to oversimplified facts like dogma. Thank god they arent GM, theyd fire everyone after each mistake and have nothing, until they were fired themselves. But boy is it tiresome to hear them lecture oversimplified ideas as if we dont understand them, when in fact, they really just reveal their limited cognitive abilities.

You REALLY dont get it. Trubisky wasnt thought to be ready, but looked to be a future franchise player. What is that worth? Also we were getting trade up offers from Cleveland, so we knew what they were offering SF as well. Pace decided to grab him, even though he thought he'd need a season to develop. What is so hard to understand about that? Being picked #2 doesnt change your experience level, and you seem to think that if he wasnt NFL starter ready then he wasnt worth #2. So you just dont get it.

yup