Lucky Luciano

i have to agree. if there is a QB that LOOKS like a future franchise player in a couple of years and is a value at the #11 spot you have to take him regardless of cutlers future with this club. most QB's shelf life hits the wall around 34 or 35 and with all the punishment cutler has had to endure with our previous lame excuse for an offense i don't look for him to last much more than that. we HOPEFULLY will not be in a position to draft this high again for quite some time so NOW is the time to pull the trigger unless the prospects (which i don't have a clue in regards to quality and potential as i don't watch college ball anymore) don't look like those quality type of players. the only other prospect i can see would be nearly as high as QB is left tackle. that is the only exception i would accept, again, if the quality of the LOT is there. if not go defense. certainly not a RT unless that is the best option for quality left to us. that dictates looking ahead for the real health of this franchise unlike the 'win it now' or 'who is most likely to start' player agenda of lovie and angelo for 10 years.

i have to agree. he did not look good at times and looked really bad at others. i'm not sure strength is going to help him in regards to getting pancaked or pushed back like it was a TE blocking a defensive tackle. the missed blocks CAN be due to being a rookie but by game 16 he is basically not a rookie anymore. i will cross my fingers that he can turn this around by next season but i wouldn't bet the farm on it. we need a replacement in the wings if he fails and hopefully someone bigger.

first: where did this guy supposedly get the hard data from in regards to the time the balls were measured, whether one teams balls were wet or dry, how each ball and each TEAM stored the balls in in what manner and so on. this is pure hypothesis on his part making the scientific data he is spewing in regards to THIS instance meaningless. some questions surely arise... do they store the game balls in an open containers? in other words the assumption by him is that all the balls were wet and that could alter PSI? if so, that is nonsense from a common sense standard. NO team is going to store game balls subject to play on the field open to rain and elements unless they are stupid. second: if it does not really matter what the PSI is then WHY DO IT??? why chance the risk of being caught cheating or changing it if it does not matter to TOM BRADY? do YOU or ANYONE really believe a ball boy just decides on his own to change the PSI of a game ball the patriots and TOM BRADY are going to use in a real game?????? its ridiculous to assume so. third: tom brady was instrumental in getting the rules changed a few years before in regards to the balls HE uses during a game. HE was instrumental in the changes. so to believe he (or ESPECIALLY bellicek) would not know what the rules are implemented in regards to football condition is ludicrous. fourth: this franchise has been CAUGHT cheating in the past. billy was censured and fined. the pats lost draft picks. it has been inferred in the media that the pats have been cheating since bellichek came there in 2000 or whenever he arrived. that means that the environment exists for the pats to lie, cheat and steal from the rest of the NFL. their OC, mcdaniel, was almost assuredly involved in cheating in new england and the complete moron tried it again when he was with the broncos. all involved with that franchise are under the cloud of cheating and had to do it better than anyone else yet this shows up again when this team is vying for another super bowl ring. to me it invalidates EVERYTHING this franchise has accomplished since billy arrived. ALL the superbowl rings are questionable. ALL the records and stats are questionable. THAT IS WHAT CHEATING DOES!! it destroys all reliability in legitimate or NOT accomplishments. it throws the NFL into the same category as all star wrestling. the NFL and especially it's fans are the losers. as far as i'm concerned they could dissolve the entire franchise and bar it's execs from ever having anything to do with the NFL.

understandable? not even close.

i usually wouldn't comment on this but wow.... was that a disgustingly stupid game. i'm not a big steelers fan and was going for the bengels but changed my mind by the time it was over. cinncy deserved to lose. from the idiot fans in the stands to the imbeciles on the field it was a black eye to the entire NFL. take in mind i detest rapesemburger but puleaase, it was bad enough cheering the injury but pelting any injured player being carted off the field with half full water bottles? that i don't believe i have ever seen. shame on the bengel fans, you are completely without class. may it be another 20 + years before you win a playoff game. and just how STUPID are the players on this team? they had the steelers beat not once but TWICE!! fumble like that? yikes!! then the late hit by #55 on that receiver was beyond believability. the game was nearly won. all they had to do was limit the steelers to short gains and run out the clock. he decides to KO a receiver after taking 2-3 steps in a wide open field right in front of the refs??? and pac man jones? he decides a 15 yard penalty to bring the steelers into position for a 'long' field goal isn't enough? then proceeds to pick a fight in the MIDDLE of 2 or 3 official's with a freaking opponents coach and turn it into a 30 yard penalty??? he needs to stick to taking dollar bills away from strippers in vegas and leave playing pro ball to someone with an IQ larger than their shoe size. all in all it was a disgusting performance by both teams but the bengels certainly beat out the steelers by a mile. if it was a badge of honor to be dumb AND stupid - cinncy and it's fans win it hands down.

i have to disagree on many levels. lovie, as a coach, was way below average and in my opinion BAD. 1. the defensive stats in this instance were misleading. lovie's system did not work even with 4 or 5 all-pro/HOF players starting. his "system" the cover 2 or tampa 2 or whatever you want to call it was dated and figured out before he even got here. it was a liability. yet he never adjusted or configured it to evolve into a modern defense as the times and rules in the NFL changed. he in essence was a one trick pony incapable of change. the cover 2 was filled with weaknesses that good to very good qb's exploited in nearly every critical game. hell, it even made bad qb's look like all-pro's. the soft cover by our corners and safeties gave every qb a quick out for at least a 5-8 yd gain for untouched (5 yard rule) receivers. as BearFan NYC stated, if not for the turnovers by peanut and the play of briggs, urlacher, mike brown, hester and tommy harris it's weaknesses were glaring as proven once a key component was missing. he was incapable of adjusting his defense to work with the players he was forced to field. the "bend and don't break" system is fine at times if you have a top 5 offense with a killer qb in your stables to run the table. if not the other team will use riding time to score and destroy you. 2. his inability to have any grasp of an offense and what it should be doing was paramount to his failure as a head coach. 3. his ability to evaluate any of his own coaches was non-existent. most were cronies from the past who themselves the NFL had already passed by. on defense? ron rivera is a perfect example of this. who he replaced rivera with is a tragedy. even worse he kept this coach after demoting him and took over the reins himself which proved how bad this system was without the key players like mike brown and tommy harris in it. then hired yet another crony who completely failed in detroit who could again run this failed system. on the offensive side? his coaching staffs were a complete joke. 4. stubborn and arrogant. both a bad trait in this business. 5. poor player personnel evaluator. again brought in bad over the hill cronies from previous experience not to mention keeping players around who were drafted by this team with little or no talent. 6. if control of the draft in any sense, after going to the superbowl, was true he completely failed in that aspect also. 7. considered winning now paramount even when it was virtually non-existent to advance in post season to pad his stats and not give us the chance to evaluate our roster for the following season. in other words we were in stasis in a failed system. 8. extremely poor game planner and adjustments at half time. 9. extremely poor clock management in conclusion: was he the worst coach we ever had? probably not, but he certainly can't be considered even average or good compared to the rest of the NFL's good coaches over the history of the league in my opinion. it was a sigh of relief when they pulled his plug and should have been done years before.

i totally agree. i just used lovie as an example because i am still pissed from when url got hurt for nothing.

i think you are basically saying what those who have said that losing these final games are implying? to me it goes like this... once you are eliminated mathematically from post season you treat the remaining games like they were preseason. you sit your veteran core that are under contract for the following season that you INTEND to have return. you play your second and third string players to see, as you suggested yourself, whether they are dead weight on your team or whether they warrant a roster spot next season. it is just common sense and healthy for your future success. there are exceptions of course - free agents who want to showcase their talent for the open market. sparingly adding offensive linemen to prevent qb's from getting killed by putting one or two into your existing line per game and compensating with additional blocking schemes using fullbacks, TE's etc. to help block if the transition is failing. the choice of keeper veterans under contract trying to make incentive money or possibly set records if they choose to do so. but you CERTAINLY sit veterans that have any significant injury without question. this is not giving your team the best chance to win but it is necessary to really evaluate the health of your roster for the following season. if you win these games great. that means your backups have real potential. if you lose you still have evaluated the talent and you get a better draft pick. it also gives your vet core time to heal or at the least not risk further injury. it's a win/win situation. that said, what gauls me is the lovie aspect. keeping your veteran core in these games that mean nothing to fatten their win/loss record for the coaches to keep their jobs. in this instance you are risking the following season for absolutely nothing and have learned nothing of what kind of depth or future starters you have on your roster.

4 January 2016 below is some data i collected quite a few years ago and reposted them in time for the 2012 draft. i don't have the time or inclination to go back over the data to update it to present so take it for what it's worth or if you or anyone else feels energetic bring it up to date. LL =================== below are some statistics i compiled for the old board about 8 years ago and i have updated the information to date, pre-draft 2012. it lists all players drafted in slots 1-20 in the first round and how they compare to obtaining a quality player drafting in these slots. feel free if you wish to copy this information for your own records but please acknowledge where you got them from as it was an incredible amount of work putting this together. thanks, Lucky Luciano my conclusions after looking at the statistics below i know i am not so sure i wouldn't consider trading up EVERY year into the top 10 if you want the odds on your side with selecting a quality player. below are some interesting facts: 1) over a 29 year period there were 580 picks in slots 1-20 2) 134 were quality picks in slots 1-10 or 23% of the players picked 3) 77 were quality picks in slots 11-20 or 13% of the players picked 4) that makes it a 10% better chance to land a better player in slots 1-10 than 11-20 in the first round. the data below reads as follows: YEAR - NUMBER OF PLAYERS FROM PICKS 1-10 - NUMBER OF PLAYERS FROM PICKS 11-20 1979 - 6 - 1 1980 - 5 - 3 1981 - 7 - 2 1982 - 5 - 2 1983 - 8 - 2 1984 - 3 - 3 * 1985 - 7 - 2 1986 - 4 - 1 1987 - 5 - 1 1988 - 6 - 7 ** 1989 - 4 - 1 1990 - 4 - 3 1991 - 3 - 0 1992 - 3 - 3 * 1993 - 5 - 1 1994 - 5 - 4 1995 - 4 - 5 ** 1996 - 5 - 2 1997 - 5 - 3 1998 - 2 - 3 ** 1999 - 7 - 2 2000 - 4 - 6 ** 2001 - 5 - 3 2002 - 3 - 3 * 2003 - 7 - 2 2004 - 5 - 4 2005 - 1 - 4 ** 2006 - 3 - 2 2007 - 3 - 2 TOTAL 134 - 77 21 out of 29 times there were MORE quality players selected 1-10 than in slots 11-20. *3 times they were even **only 5 times in 29 years were there more pro bowl/all-pro players picked in slots 11-20. i used data for 29 years from 1979 to 2007 inclusive. i did not go further than 2007 as the time frame would be not be long enough to determine any significant figures. over time some of these figures will change and have to be adjusted. i also am using figures from picks 1-20 in the first round only to determine the value of drafting in the top 10 as compared to picking in the next 10 slots. although i haven't tallied up the differences in slots 21-32 i believe the numbers would be considerably lower. anyone who feels like doing the work is welcome to dispute that statement. i went through an incredible amount of data to get these stats. all data was figured from players who had at LEAST two forms of award. EXAMPLE.. a player that had 1 pro bowl and 1 all-pro made the list, a player that was selected for 2 pro-bowls made the list, a player who was selected as all-pro (or all-nfl) twice made the list, and multiples of the above. im no math expert by any means and if anyone see's any errors post them and/or i will post the players along with data. any who want can do the math on their own as it is possible i missed someone or added one by mistake. if you find any that dont jive let me know. =========== listed below are the players that i used for the stats above from 1979 - 2007. how long did this take to compile this data you ask? days! ap = ALL-PRO pb = PRO BOWL >> 1979 - 6 - 1 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Tom Cousineau Bills LB Ohio State - 2 ap >> 2 Mike Bell Chiefs DE Colorado State 3 Jack Thompson Bengals QB Washington State >> 4 Dan Hampton Bears DT Arkansas - 4 pb - 1 ap >> 5 Jerry Butler Bills WR Clemson - 1 pb - 1 ap 6 Barry Krauss Colts LB Alabama >> 7 Phil Simms Giants QB Morehead State - 2 pb - 1 ap >> 8 Ottis Anderson Cardinals RB Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 2 ap 9 Al Harris Bears DE Arizona State >> 10 Keith Dorney Lions T Penn State - 1 pb - 2 ap -------------------------------------------------- 11 Russell Erxleben Saints K Texas 12 Charles Alexander Bengals RB LSU >> 13 Kellen Winslow Chargers TE Missouri - 5 pb - 3 ap 14 Marty Lyons Jets DE Alabama 15 Eddie Lee Ivery Packers RB Georgia Tech 16 Ted Brown Vikings RB North Carolina State 17 Don Smith Falcons DE Miami (FL) - 1 ap 18 Manu Tuiasosopo Seahawks DT UCLA 19 George Andrews Rams LB Nebraska 20 Willis Adams Browns WR Houston ======================================= 1980 - 5 - 3 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Billy Sims Lions RB Oklahoma - 2 pb - 2 ap 2 Lam Jones Jets WR Texas >> 3 Anthony Munoz Bengals T USC - 10 pb - 11 ap 4 Bruce Clark Packers DT Penn State - 1 pb 5 Curtis Dickey Colts RB Texas A&M 6 Curtis Greer Cardinals DE Michigan - 1 ap >> 7 Junior Miller Falcons TE Nebraska - 2 pb >> 8 Mark Haynes Giants DB Colorado - 3pb - 5 ap 9 Doug Martin Vikings DT Washington >> 10 Jacob Green Seahawks DE Texas A&M- 2ap - 4 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Brad Budde Chiefs G USC 12 Stan Brock Saints T Colorado 13 Earl Cooper 49ers RB Rice 14 Roland James Patriots DB Tennessee - 1 ap 15 Marc Wilson Raiders QB Brigham Young >> 16 Jim Ritcher Bills C North Carolina State - 2 pb - 2 ap 17 Johnnie Johnson Rams DB Texas - 1 ap >> 18 Art Monk Redskins WR Syracuse - 3 pb - 3 ap >> 19 Otis Wilson Bears LB Louisville - 1 pb - 2 ap 20 Jim Stuckey 49ers DT Clemson ===================================================== 1981 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 George Rogers Saints RB South Carolina - 2 pb - 2 ap >> 2 Lawrence Taylor Giants LB North Carolina - 10 pb - 8 ap >> 3 Freeman McNeil Jets RB UCLA - 3 pb - 3 ap >> 4 Kenny Easley Seahawks DB UCLA - 5 pb - 5 ap >> 5 E.J. Junior Cardinals LB Alabama - 2 pb - 2 ap 6 Rich Campbell Packers QB California >> 7 Hugh Green Buccaneers LB Pittsburgh - 2 pb - 2 ap >> 8 Ronnie Lott 49ers DB USC - 10 pb - 6 ap 9 Mel Owens Rams LB Michigan 10 David Verser Bengals WR Kansas ----------------------------------------------------- 11 Keith Van Horne Bears T USC 12 Randy McMillan Colts RB Pittsburgh 13 David Overstreet Dolphins RB Oklahoma 14 Willie Scott Chiefs TE South Carolina >> 15 Dennis Smith Broncos DB USC - 6 pb 16 Mark Nichols Lions WR San Jose State 17 Keith Gary Steelers DE Oklahoma 18 Donnell Thompson Colts DT North Carolina >> 19 Brian Holloway Patriots T Stanford - 3 pb - 3 ap 20 Mark May Redskins T Pittsburgh - 1 ap ============================================ 1982 - 5 - 2 - top 5 = 2 1 Kenneth Sims Patriots DT Texas 2 Johnie Cooks Colts LB Mississippi State >> 3 Chip Banks Browns LB USC - 4 pb - 4 ap 4 Art Schlichter Colts QB Ohio State >> 5 Jim McMahon Bears QB Brigham Young - 1 pb - 1 ap 6 Jeff Bryant Seahawks DE Clemson - 1 ap 7 Darrin Nelson Vikings RB Stanford >> 8 Mike Munchak Oilers G Penn State - 9 pb - 2 ap >> 9 Gerald Riggs Falcons RB Arizona State - 3 pb - 2 ap >> 10 Marcus Allen Raiders RB USC - 5 pb - 2 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Anthony Hancock Chiefs WR Tennessee 12 Walter Abercrombie Steelers RB Baylor 13 Lindsay Scott Saints WR Georgia 14 Barry Redden Rams RB Richmond 15 Jimmy Williams Lions LB Nebraska >> 16 Luis Sharpe Cardinals T UCLA - 3 pb - 4 ap 17 Sean Farrell Buccaneers G Penn State - 1 ap 18 Butch Woolfork Giants RB Michigan 19 Perry Tuttle Bills WR Clemson >> 20 Mike Quick Eagles WR North Carolina State - 5 pb - 4 ap ==================================== 1983 - 8 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 John Elway Colts QB Stanford - 9 pb >> 2 Eric Dickerson Rams RB SMU - 5 pb - 4 ap >> 3 Curt Warner Seahawks RB Penn State - 3 pb - 4 ap >> 4 Chris Hinton Broncos T Northwestern - 7 pb - 1 ap >> 5 Billy Ray Smith Chargers LB Arkansas - 3 ap >> 6 Jimbo Covert Bears T Pittsburgh - 2 pb - 2 ap 7 Todd Blackledge Chiefs QB Penn State 8 Michael Haddix Eagles RB Mississippi State >> 9 Bruce Matthews Oilers G USC - 14 pb - 7 ap >> 10 Terry Kinard Giants DB Clemson - 1 pb - 1 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Tim Lewis Packers DB Pittsburgh - 1 ap 12 Tony Hunter Bills TE Notre Dame 13 James Jones Lions RB Florida - >> 14 Jim Kelly Bills QB Miami (FL) 5 pb - 1 ap 15 Tony Eason Patriots QB Illinois 16 Mike Pitts Falcons DE Alabama 17 Leonard Smith Cardinals DB McNeese State 1 ap 18 Willie Gualt Bears WR Tennessee >> 19 Joey Browner Vikings DB USC - 6 pb - 5 ap 20 Gary Anderson Chargers RB Arkansas - 1 pb ================================ 1984 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Irving Fryar Patriots WR Nebraska - 5 pb - 1 ap 2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers T Nebraska >> 3 Carl Banks Giants LB Michigan State - 1 pb - 1 ap 4 Kenny Jackson Eagles WR Penn State >> 5 Bill Maas Chiefs DT Pittsburgh - 2 ap 6 Mossy Cade Chargers DB Texas 7 Ricky Hunley Bengals LB Arizona 8 Leonard Coleman Colts DB Vanderbilt 9 Rick Bryan Falcons DT Oklahoma - 1 ap 10 Russell Carter Jets DB SMU -------------------------------------- >> 11 Wilber Marshall Bears LB Florida - 3 pb - 2 ap 12 Alphonso Carreker Packers DE Florida State >> 13 Keith Millard Vikings DE Washington State - 2 pb - 4 ap 14 Jackie Shipp Dolphins LB Oklahoma 15 Ron Faurot Jets DE Arkansas 16 Pete Koch Bengals DE Maryland 17 Clyde Duncan Cardinals WR Tennessee 18 Don Rogers Browns DB UCLA >> 19 Ron Solt Colts G Maryland - 1 pb - 1 ap 20 David Lewis Lions TE California ========================================== 1985 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 Bruce Smith Bills DE Virginia Tech 11 pb - 8 ap >> 2 Bill Fralic Falcons T Pittsburgh - 4 pb - 3 ap >> 3 Ray Childress Oilers DE Texas A&M - 5 pb - 6 ap >> 4 Chris Doleman Vikings DE Pittsburgh - 8 pb - 4 ap >> 5 Duane Bickett Colts LB USC - 1 pb - 2 ap >> 6 Lomas Brown Lions T Florida - 7 pb - 6 ap 7 Ken Ruettgers Packers T USC 8 Ron Holmes Buccaneers DE Washington 9 Kevin Allen Eagles T Indiana >> 10 Al Toon Jets WR Wisconsin - 3 pb - 3 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Richard Johnson Oilers DB Wisconsin >> 12 Jim Lachey Chargers T Ohio State - 3 pb - 5 ap 13 Eddie Brown Bengals WR Miami (FL) - 1 ap 14 Derrick Burroughs Bills DB Memphis State 15 Ethan Horton Chiefs RB North Carolina >> 16 Jerry Rice 49ers WR Mississippi Valley State - 13 pb - 10 ap 17 Kevin Brooks Cowboys DE Michigan 18 Freddie Joe Nunn Cardinals DE Mississippi 19 George Adams Giants RB Kentucky 20 Darryl Sims Steelers DE Wisconsin ======================================= 1986 - 4 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Bo Jackson Buccaneers RB Auburn - 1 pb - 2 ap 2 Tony Casillas Falcons DT Oklahoma - 1 ap >> 3 Jim Everett Oilers QB Purdue - 1 pb - 2 ap 4 Jon Hand Colts DE Alabama 5 Anthony Bell Cardinals LB Michigan State 6 Jim Dombrowski Saints T Virginia 7 Brian Jozwiak Chiefs T West Virginia >> 8 Leslie O'Neal Chargers DE Oklahoma State - 6 pb 9 John Rienstra Steelers G Temple >> 10 Keith Byars Eagles RB Ohio State - 1 pb - 1 ap ------------------------------------ 11 Joe Kelly Bengals LB Washington 12 Chuck Long Lions QB Iowa 13 James Fitzpatrick Chargers T USC 14 Gerald Robinson Vikings DE Auburn 15 John L. Williams Seahawks RB Florida 16 Ronnie Harmon Bills RB Iowa - 1 pb 17 Tim Green Falcons LB Syracuse 18 Mike Sherrard Cowboys WR UCLA 19 Eric Dorsey Giants DE Notre Dame >> 20 Will Wolford Bills T Vanderbilt - 3 pb - 2 ap ================================= 1987 - 5 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Vinny Testaverde Buccaneers QB Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 1 ap >> 2 Cornelius Bennett Colts LB Alabama - 5 pb - 1 ap 3 Alonzo Highsmith Oilers RB Miami (FL) 4 Brent Fullwood Packers RB Auburn - 1 pb 5 Mike Junkin Browns LB Duke 6 Kelly Stouffer Cardinals QB Colorado State 7 Reggie Rogers Lions DE Washington >> 8 Shane Conlan Bills LB Penn State - 3 pb - 3 ap >> 9 Jerome Brown Eagles DT Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 3 ap >> 10 Rod Woodson Steelers DB Purdue 11 pb - 6 ap ------------------------------------------------------ 11 Shawn Knight Saints DT Brigham Young 12 Danny Noonan Cowboys DT Nebraska 13 Chris Miller Falcons QB Oregon - 1 pb 14 D.J. Dozier Vikings RB Penn State 15 John Clay Raiders T Missouri 16 John Bosa Dolphins DE Boston College 17 Jason Buck Bengals DE Brigham Young 18 Tony Woods Seahawks LB Pittsburgh 19 Paul Palmer Chiefs RB Temple >> 20 Haywood Jeffires Oilers WR North Carolina State - 3 pb - 2 ap ========================================= 1988 - 6 - 7 - top 5 = 3 1 Aundray Bruce Falcons LB Auburn - >> 2 Neil Smith Chiefs DE Nebraska - 6 pb - 6 ap >> 3 Bennie Blades Lions DB Miami (FL) - 1 pb - 3 ap >> 4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers T Wisconsin - 3 ap 5 Rickey Dixon Bengals DB Oklahoma >> 6 Tim Brown Raiders WR Notre Dame - 7 + - ap + >> 7 Sterling Sharpe Packers WR South Carolina - 5 pb - 5 ap 8 Dave Cadigan Jets T USC - >> 9 Terry McDaniel Raiders DB Tennessee - 5 pb - 2 ap 10 Eric Moore Giants T Indiana ------------------------------------- >> 11 Michael Irvin Cowboys WR Miami (FL) - + pb - + ap >> 12 Ken Harvey Cardinals LB California - + pb - + ap >> 13 Keith Jackson Eagles TE Oklahoma - 5 pb - 4 ap >> 14 Gaston Green Rams RB UCLA - 1 pb - 1 ap >> 15 Anthony Miller Chargers WR Tennessee - 5 pb - 3 ap 16 Eric Kumerow Dolphins DE Ohio State >> 17 John Stephens Patriots RB NW Louisiana - 1 pb - 1 ap 18 Aaron Jones Steelers DE Eastern Kentucky - >> 19 Randall McDaniel Vikings G Arizona State - 12 pb - 7 ap 20 Aaron Cox Rams WR Arizona State ================================================= 1989 - 4 -1 - top 5 = 4 >> 1 Troy Aikman Cowboys QB UCLA - 6 pb 2 Tony Mandarich Packers T Michigan State >> 3 Barry Sanders Lions RB Oklahoma State - 10 pb - 5 ap >> 4 Derrick Thomas Chiefs LB Alabama - 9 pb - 2 ap >> 5 Deion Snaders Falcons DB Florida State 8 pb - 6 ap 6 Broderick Thomas Buccaneers LB Nebraska 7 Tim Worley Steelers RB Georgia 8 Burt Grossman Chargers DE Pittsburgh 9 Sammie Smith Dolphins RB Florida State 10 Eric Hill Cardinals LB LSU --------------------------------------------- 11 Donnell Woolford Bears DB Clemson - 1 pb 12 Trace Armstrong Bears DE Florida 1 pb 13 Eric Metcalf Browns RB Texas 14 Jeff Lageman Jets LB Virginia - 1 ap 15 Andy Heck Seahawks T Notre Dame - 1 ap 16 Hart Lee Dykes Patriots WR Oklahoma State 17 Joe Wolf Cardinals G Boston College 18 Brian Williams Giants C Minnesota 19 Wayne Martin Saints DE Arkansas - 1 pb >> 20 Steve Atwater Broncos DB Arkansas - 8 pb - + ap ========================================= 1990 - 4 - 3 - top 5 = 2 1 Jeff George Colts QB Illinois 2 Blair Thomas Jets RB Penn State >> 3 Cortez Kennedy Seahawks DT Miami (FL) - 7 pb - 6 ap 4 Keith McCants Buccaneers LB Alabama >> 5 Junior Seau Chargers LB USC - 12 pb - 6 ap >> 6 Mark Carrier Bears DB USC - 3 pb - 3 ap 7 Andre Ware Lions QB Houston 8 Chris Singleton Patriots LB Arizona >> 9 Richmond Webb Dolphins T Texas A&M - 7 pb - 3 ap 10 Ray Agnew Patriots DE North Carolina State - -------------------------------------------- 11 Anthony Smith Raiders DE Arizona 12 James Francis Bengals LB Baylor 13 Percy Snow Chiefs LB Michigan State >> 14 Renaldo Turnbull Saints DE West Virginia - 1 pb - 1 ap >> 15 Lamar Lathon Oilers LB Houston - 1 pb - 1 ap 16 James Williams Bills DB Fresno State >> 17 Emmitt Smith Cowboys RB Florida 8 pb - 4 ap 18 Tony Bennett Packers LB Mississippi 19 Darrell Thompson Packers RB Minnesota 20 Steve Broussard Falcons RB Washington State ============================================== 1991 - 3 - 0 - top 5 = 1 1 Russell Maryland Cowboys DT Miami (FL) - 1 pb >> 2 Eric Turner Browns DB UCLA - 2 pb - 1 ap 3 Bruce Pickens Falcons DB Nebraska 4 Mike Croel Broncos LB Nebraska 5 Todd Lyght Rams DB Notre Dame - 1 pb >> 6 Eric Swann Cardinals DE None - 2 pb - 2 ap 7 Charles McRae Buccaneers T Tennessee 8 Antone Davis Eagles T Tennessee 9 Stanley Richard Chargers DB Texas >> 10 Herman Moore Lions WR Virginia - 4 pb - 3 ap --------------------------------------- 11 Pat Harlow Patriots T USC 12 Alvin Harper Cowboys WR Tennessee 13 Mike Pritchard Falcons WR Colorado 14 Leonard Russell Patriots RB Arizona State 15 Huey Richardson Steelers LB Florida 16 Dan McGwire Seahawks QB San Diego State 17 Bobby Wilson Redskins DT Michigan State 18 Alfred Williams Bengals LB Colorado 19 Vinnie Clark Packers DB Ohio State 20 Kelvin Pritchett Cowboys DT Mississippi ================================================ 1992 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 1 1 Steve Emtman Colts DT Washington 2 Quentin Coryatt Colts LB Texas A&M >> 3 Sean Gilbert Rams DT Pittsburgh - 1 pb - 1 ap 4 Desmond Howard Redskins WR Michigan 5 Terrell Buckley Packers DB Florida State - 1 ap 6 David Klingler Bengals QB Houston >> 7 Troy Vincent Dolphins DB Wisconsin - 5 pb - 1 ap >> 8 Bob Whitfield Falcons T Stanford - 1 pb - 1 ap 9 Tommy Vardell Browns RB Stanford 10 Ray Roberts Seahawks T Virginia ------------------------------------------ 11 Leon Searcy Steelers T Miami (FL) - 1 pb >> 12 Marco Coleman Dolphins DE Georgia Tech - 2 pb 13 Eugene Chung Patriots T Virginia Tech 14 Derek Brown Giants TE Notre Dame 15 Johnny Mitchell Jets TE Nebraska >> 16 Chester McGlockton Raiders DT Clemson - 4 pb - + ap 17 Kevin Smith Cowboys DB Texas A&M - 1 ap 18 Dana Hall 49ers DB Washington - 19 Troy Smith Falcons RB Southern Mississippi >> 20 Dale Carter Chiefs DB Tennessee - 4 pb - 4 ap ========================================== 1993 - 5 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Drew Bledsoe Patriots QB Washington State - 4 pb 2 Rick Mirer Seahawks QB Notre Dame >> 3 Garrison Hearst Cardinals RB Georgia 2 pb 4 Marvin Jones Jets LB Florida State 5 John Copeland Bengals DE Alabama 6 Eric Curry Buccaneers DE Alabama 7 Curtis Conway Bears WR USC >> 8 William Roaf Saints T Louisiana Tech - 11 pb - 3 ap >>9 Lincoln Kennedy Falcons T Washington - 3 pb - 1 ap >> 10 Jerome Bettis Rams RB Notre Dame - 6 pb - 2 ap ------------------------------------- 11 Dan Williams Broncos DE Toledo 12 Patrick Bates Raiders DB Texas A&M >>13 Brad Hopkins Oilers T Illinois - 2 pb 14 Steve Everitt Browns C Michigan 15 Wayne Simmons Packers LB Clemson 16 Sean Dawkins Colts WR California 17 Tom Carter Redskins DB Notre Dame 18 Ernest Dye Cardinals T South Carolina 19 Lester Holmes Eagles G Jackson State 20 Irv Smith Saints TE Notre Dame ==================================== 1994 - 5 - 4 - top 5 = 2 1 Dan Wilkinson Bengals DT Ohio State >> 2 Marshall Faulk Colts RB San Diego State 7 pb - 3 ap 3 Heath Shuler Redskins QB Tennessee >>4 Willie McGinest Patriots DE USC - 2 pb 5 Trev Alberts Colts LB Nebraska 6 Trent Dilfer Buccaneers QB Fresno State - 1 pb >> 7 Bryant Young 49ers DT Notre Dame - 4 pb - 1 ap >> 8 Sam Adams Seahawks DT Texas A&M - 3 pb 9 Antonio Langham Browns DB Alabama >> 10 Jamir Miller Cardinals LB UCLA - 1 pb - 1 ap --------------------------------- 11 John Thierry Bears DE Alcorn State >> 12 Aaron Glenn Jets DB Texas A&M - 3 pb >> 13 Joe Johnson Saints DE Louisville 2 pb 14 Bernard Williams Eagles T Georgia 15 Wayne Gandy Rams T Auburn 16 Aaron Taylor Packers T Notre Dame 17 Charles Johnson Steelers WR Colorado 18 DeWayne Washington Vikings DB North Carolina State >> 19 Todd Steussie Vikings T California - 2 pb >> 20 Tim Bowens Dolphins DT Mississippi 2 pb ========================================= 1995 - 4 - 5 - top 5 = 3 1 Ki-Jana Carter Bengals RB Penn State >> 2 Tony Boselli Jaguars T USC - 5 pb - 3 ap >>3 Steve McNair Oilers QB Alcorn State - 3 pb 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins WR Colorado >>5 Kerry Collins Panthers QB Penn State - 2 pb >> 6 Kevin Carter Rams DE Florida - 2 pb - 1ap 7 Mike Mamula Eagles DE Boston College 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks WR Ohio State 9 Kyle Brady Jets TE Penn State 10 J.J. Stokes 49ers WR UCLA -------------------------------------------- 11 Derrick Alexander Vikings DE Florida State >> 12 Warren Sapp Buccaneers DT Miami (FL) - 7 pb - 4 ap >>13 Mark Fields Saints LB Washington State - 2 pb >> 14 Reuben Brown Bills G Pittsburgh - 9 pb 15 Ellis Johnson Colts DT Florida >> 16 Hugh Douglas Jets DE Central State (OH) - 3 pb - 1 ap 17 Tyrone Wheatley Giants RB Michigan 18 Napoleon Kaufman Raiders RB Washington 19 James Stewart Jaguars RB Tennessee >> 20 Luther Elliss Lions DE Utah - 2 pb ========================================== 1996 - 5 - 2 - top 5 = 4 >> 1 Keyshawn Johnson Jets WR USC - 3 pb >> 2 Kevin Hardy Jaguars LB Illinois - 1 pb - 1 ap >> 3 Simeon Rice Cardinals DE Illinois - 3 pb 1 ap >> 4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens T UCLA - 11 pb - 4 ap 5 Cedric Jones Giants DE Oklahoma 6 Lawrence Phillips Rams RB Nebraska 7 Terry Glenn Patriots WR Ohio State - 1 pb 8 Tim Biakabutuka Panthers RB Michigan 9 Rickey Dudley Raiders TE Ohio State >>10 Willie Anderson Bengals T Auburn - 4 pb - 3 ap ----------------------------------------- 11 Alex Molden Saints DB Oregon 12 Regan Upshaw Buccaneers DE California 13 Walt Harris Bears DB Mississippi State >> 14 Eddie George Oilers RB Ohio State - 4 pb - 1 ap 15 John Mobley Broncos LB Kutztown (PA) - 1 ap 16 Duane Clemons Vikings DE California 17 Reggie Brown Lions LB Texas A&M 18 Eddie Kennison Rams WR LSU >> 19 Marvin Harrison Colts WR Syracuse - 8 pb - 3 ap 20 Daryl Gardener Dolphins DT Baylor ============================================== 1997 - 5 - 3 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Orlando Pace Rams T Ohio State - 7 pb - 3 ap >> 2 Darrell Russell Raiders DT USC - 2 pb - 1 ap 3 Shawn Springs Seahawks DB Ohio State - 1 pb >> 4 Peter Boulware Ravens DE Florida State - 4 pb 5 Bryant Westbrook Lions DB Texas >> 6 Walter Jones Seahawks T Florida State - 8 pb - 4 ap 7 Ike Hilliard Giants WR Florida >>8 James Farrior Jets LB Virginia - 2 pb - 1 ap 9 TOM Knight Cards CB Iowa 10 Chris Naeole Saints G Colorado ------------------------------------------ 11 Michael Booker Falcons DB Nebraska >> 12 Warrick Dunn Buccaneers RB Florida State - 3 pb >> 13 Tony Gonzalez Chiefs TE California - 12 pb 5 ap 14 Reinard Wilson Bengals DE Florida State 15 Yatil Green Dolphins WR Miami (FL) 16 Reidel Anthony Buccaneers WR Florida 17 Kenard Lang Redskins DE Miami (FL) 18 Kenny Holmes Oilers DE Miami (FL) >>19 Tarik Glenn Colts T California - 3 pb 20 Dwayne Rudd Vikings LB Alabama ==================================== 1998 - 2 - 3 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Peyton Manning Colts QB Tennessee - 11 pb - 5 ap 2 Ryan Leaf Chargers QB Washington State 3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals DE Florida State >> 4 Charles Woodson Raiders DB Michigan - 8 pb - 3 ap 5 Curtis Enis Bears RB Penn State 6 Grant Wistrom Rams DE Nebraska 7 Kyle Turley Saints T San Diego State - 1 ap 8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina 9 Fred Taylor Jaguars RB Florida 10 Duane Starks Ravens DB Miami (FL) -------------------------------------- >> 11 Tra Thomas Eagles T Florida State - 3 pb >> 12 Keith Brooking Falcons LB Georgia Tech - 5 pb >>13 Takeo Spikes Bengals LB Auburn - 2 pb - 1 ap 14 Jason Peter Panthers DT Nebraska 15 Anthony Simmons Seahawks LB Clemson 16 Kevin Dyson Oilers WR Utah 17 Brian Simmons Bengals LB North Carolina 18 Robert Edwards Patriots RB Georgia 19 Vonnie Holliday Packers DT North Carolina 20 Terry Fair Lions DB Tennessee ====================================== 1999 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 3 1 Tim Couch Browns QB Kentucky >>2 Donovan McNabb Eagles QB Syracuse 6 pb 3 Akili Smith Bengals QB Oregon >>4 Edgerrin James Colts RB Miami (FL) - 4 pr - 1 ap >>5 Ricky Williams Saints RB Texas - 1 pb - 1 ap >>6 Torry Holt Rams WR North Carolina State - 7 pb - 1 ap >>7 Champ Bailey Redskins DB Georgia - 11 pb - 3 ap >>8 David Boston Cardinals WR Ohio State - 1 pb - 1 ap 9 Chris Claiborne Lions LB USC >>10 Chris McAlister Ravens DB Arizona - 3 pb - 1 ap ------------------------------------------ >>11 Daunte Culpepper Vikings QB Central Florida 3 pb 12 Cade McNown Bears QB UCLA 13 Troy Edwards Steelers WR Louisiana Tech 14 John Tait Chiefs T Brigham Young 15 Anthony McFarland Buccaneers DT LSU >>16 Jevon Kearse Oilers LB Florida - 3 pb - 1 ap 17 Damien Woody Patriots C Boston College 18 Matt Stinchcomb Raiders T Georgia 19 Luke Petitgout Giants T Notre Dame 20 Ebenezer Ekuban Cowboys DE North Carolina ========================================= 2000 - 4 - 6 - top 5 = 3 1 Courtney Brown Browns DE Penn State >>2 LaVar Arrington Redskins LB Penn State - 3 pb >>3 Chris Samuels Redskins T Alabama - 6 pb 4 Peter Warrick Bengals WR Florida State >>5 Jamal Lewis Ravens RB Tennessee - 1 pb - 1 ap 6 Corey Simon Eagles DT Florida State 7 Thomas Jones Cardinals RB Virginia 8 Plaxico Burress Steelers WR Michigan State >>9 Brian Urlacher Bears LB New Mexico - 8 pb - 4 ap 10 Travis Taylor Ravens WR Florida --------------------------------------- 11 Ron Dayne Giants RB Wisconsin >>12 Shaun Ellis Jets DE Tennessee - 2 pb >>13 John Abraham Jets LB South Carolina - 4 pb - 2 ap >>14 Bubba Franks Packers TE Miami (FL) - 3 pb >>15 Deltha O'Neal Broncos DB California - 2 pb - 1 ap >>16 Julian Peterson 49ers LB Michigan State - 5 pb - 1 ap 17 Sebastian Janikowski Raiders K Florida State 18 Chad Pennington Jets QB Marshall >>19 Shaun Alexander Seahawks RB Alabama - 3 pb - 1 ap 20 Stockar McDougle Lions T Oklahoma ====================================== 2001 - 5 - 3 - top 5 = 4 >>1 Michael Vick Falcons QB Virginia Tech - 4 pb >>2 Leonard Davis Cardinals T Texas - 3 pb 3 Gerard Warren Browns DT Florida >>4 Justin Smith Bengals DE Missouri - 3 pb - 1 ap >>5 LaDainian Tomlinson Chargers RB Texas Christian - 5 pb - 3 ap >>6 Richard Seymour Patriots DT Georgia - 7 pb - 3 ap 7 Andre Carter 49ers DE California 8 David Terrell Bears WR Michigan 9 Koren Robinson Seahawks WR North Carolina State 10 Jamal Reynolds Packers DE Florida State ---------------------------------------------- 11 Dan Morgan Panthers LB Miami (FL) 12 Damione Lewis Rams DT Miami (FL) >>13 Marcus Stroud Jaguars DT Georgia - 3 pb 14 Kenyatta Walker Buccaneers T Florida 15 Rod Gardner Redskins WR Clemson 16 Santana Moss Jets WR Miami (FL) >>17 Steve Hutchinson Seahawks G Michigan - 7 pb - 5 ap 18 Jeff Backus Lions T Michigan >>19 Casey Hampton Steelers DT Texas - 5 pb 20 Adam Archuleta Rams DB Arizona State ========================================== 2002 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 1 1 David Carr Texans QB Fresno State >>2 Julius Peppers Panthers DE North Carolina - 6 pb - 3 ap 3 Joey Harrington Lions QB Oregon 4 Mike Williams Bills T Texas 5 Quentin Jammer Chargers DB Texas 6 Ryan Sims Chiefs DT North Carolina 7 Bryant McKinnie Vikings T Miami (FL) >>8 Roy Williams Cowboys DB Oklahoma - 5 pb - 1 ap >>9 John Henderson Jaguars DT Tennessee - 2 pb 10 Levi Jones Bengals T Arizona State ------------------------------------- >>11 Dwight Freeney Colts LB Syracuse - 7 pb - 3 ap 12 Wendell Bryant Cardinals DT Wisconsin 13 Donte Stallworth Saints WR Tennessee >>14 Jeremy Shockey Giants TE Miami (FL) 4 pb - 1 ap >>15 Albert Haynesworth Titans DT Tennessee - 2 pb - 2 ap 16 William Green Browns RB Boston College 17 Phillip Buchanon Raiders DB Miami (FL) 18 T.J. Duckett Falcons RB Michigan State 19 Ashley Lelie Broncos WR Hawaii 20 Javon Walker Packers WR Florida State ============================================ 2003 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 3 >>1 Carson Palmer Bengles QB USC - 2 pb 2 Charles Rogers Detroit WR Michigan State >>3 Andre Johnson Houston WR Miami (Fla.) - 5 pb - 2 ap 4 Dewayne Robertson NYJ DT Kentucky >>5 Terence Newman Dallas CB Kansas State - 2 pb 6 Johnathan Sullivan Saints DT Georgia 7 Byron Leftwich Jaguars QB Marshall >>8 Jordan Gross Panthers OT Utah - 2 pb - 1 pb >>9 Kevin Williams Vikings DT Oklahoma State - 6 pb - 5 ap >>10 Terrell Suggs Ravens DE Arizona State - 5 pb - 1 ap -------------------------------------------- 11 Marcus Trufant Seahawks CB Washington State 12 Jimmy Kennedy Rams DT Penn State 13 Ty Warren Patriots DT Texas A&M 14 Michale Haynes Bears DE Penn State 15 Jerome McDougle Eagles DE Miami (Fla.) >>16 Troy Polamalu Steelers SS Southern California - 7 pb - 4 ap 17 Bryant Johnson Cards WR Penn State 18 Calvin Pace Cards DE Wake Forest 19 Kyle Boller Ravens QB California 20 George Foster Broncos OT Georgia ==================================================== 2004 - 5 - 4 - top 5 = 4 >>1 Eli Manning Chargers QB Mississippi - 2 pb 2 Robert Gallery Raiders OT Iowa >>3 Larry Fitzgerald Cards WR Pittsburgh - 6 pb - 1 ap >>4 Philip Rivers Giants/Chargers QB North Carolina State - 4 pb >>5 Sean Taylor Redskins DB Miami (FL) - 2 pb 6 Kellen Winslow II Browns (from Detroit) TE Miami (FL) 7 Roy Williams Lions (from Cleveland) WR Texas >>8 DeAngelo Hall Falcons DB Virginia Tech - 3 pb 9 Reggie Williams Jaguars WR Washington 10 Dunta Robinson Texans DB South Carolina -------------------------------------------------- >>11 Ben Roethlisberger Steelers QB Miami (OH) - 2 pb >>12 Jonathan Vilma NYJ LB Miami (FL) - 2 pb 13 Lee Evans Bills WR Wisconsin >>14 Tommie Harris Bears DT Oklahoma - 3 pb 15 Michael Clayton Bucs WR LSU >>16 Shawn Andrews Eagles (from San Francisco) OT Arkansas = 2 pb - 1 ap 17 D.J. Williams Broncos (from Cincinnati) LB Miami (FL) 18 Will Smith Saints DE Ohio State 19 Vernon Carey Miami (from Minnesota) OT Miami (FL) 20 Kenechi Udeze Vikings (from Miami) DE USC ================================================ 2005 - 1 - 4 - top 5 = 0 1 Alex Smith Niners QB Utah 2 Ronnie Brown Miami RB Auburn 3 Braylon Edwards Browns WR Michigan 4 Cedric Benson Bears RB Texas 5 Cadillac Williams Bucs RB Auburn 6 Pacman Jones Titans CB West Virginia 7 Troy Williamson Vikings WR South Carolina >>8 Antrel Rolle Cards DB Miami (Fla.) - 2 pb 9 Carlos Rogers Skins DB Auburn 10 Mike Williams Lions WR USC ----------------------------------------------- >>11 DeMarcus Ware Cowboys OLB Troy State - 6 pb - 4 ap >>12 Shawne Merriman Chargers OLB Maryland - 3 pb - 1 ap >>13 Jammal Brown Saints T Oklahoma - 2 pb - 1 ap 14 Thomas Davis Panthers DB Georgia >>15 Derrick Johnson Chiefs OLB Texas - 1 pb - 1 ap 16 Travis Johnson Texans DT Florida State 17 David Pollack Bengals LB Georgia 18 Erasmus James Vikings DE Wisconsin 19 Alex Barron Rams T Florida State 20 Marcus Spears Cowboys DE Louisiana State ==================================================== 2006 - 3 - 2 - top 5 = 3 >>1 Mario Williams Texans DE North Carolina State - 2 pb 2 Reggie Bush Saints RB USC >>3 Vince Young Titans QB Texas - 2 pb >>4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets T Virginia - 3 pb 5 A.J. Hawk Packers OLB Ohio State 6 Vernon Davis Niners TE Maryland 7 Michael Huff Raiders SS Texas 8 Donte Whitner Bills SS Ohio State 9 Ernie Sims Lions OLB Florida State 10 Matt Leinart Cards QB USC ----------------------------------------------------- 11 Jay Cutler Broncos QB Vanderbilt >>12 Haloti Ngata Ravems DT Oregon - 3 pb - 2 ap 13 Kamerion Wimbley Browns OLB Florida State 14 Brodrick Bunkley Eagles DT Florida State 15 Tye Hill Rams CB Clemson 16 Jason Allen Miami DB Tennessee 17 Chad Greenway Vikings LB Iowa 18 Bobby Carpenter Cowboys LB Ohio State >>19 Antonio Cromartie Chargers CB Florida State - 1 pb - 1 ap 20 Tamba Hali Chiefs DE Penn State ==================================================== 2007 - 3 - 2 - top 5 = 2 1 JaMarcus Russell Raiders QB Louisiana State >>2 Calvin Johnson Lions WR Georgia Tech - 2 pb - 1 ap >>3 Joe Thomas Browns OT Wisconsin - 5 pb - 3 ap 4 Gaines Adams Bucs DE Clemson 5 Levi Brown Cards OT Penn State 6 LaRon Landry Skins SS Louisiana State >>7 Adrian Peterson Vikings RB Oklahoma - 4 pb - 2 ap 8 Jamaal Anderson Falcons DE Arkansas 9 Ted Ginn Jr. Miami WR Ohio State 10 Amobi Okoye Texans DT Louisville --------------------------------------------------- >>11 Patrick Willis Niners ILB Mississippi - 5 pb - 4 ap 12 Marshawn Lynch Bills RB California 13 Adam Carriker Rams NT Nebraska >>14 Darrelle Revis Jets CB Pittsburgh - 4 pb - 3 ap 15 Lawrence Timmons Steelers LB Florida State 16 Justin Harrell Packers DT Tennessee 17 Jarvis Moss Broncos DE Florida 18 Leon Hall Bengals CB Michigan 19 Michael Griffin Titans FS Texas 20 Aaron Ross Giants CB Texas ==================================================== ==================================================== i dont think anyone (or at least myself) is trying to imply that if you pick in the top 5 or 10 that you are guaranteed a high impact player with that pick. the lists i posted clearly show that. but... i think what it does show is that you have a much better chance at achieving the goal of every organization by picking in these slots than in lower ones. to aquire a franchise player it can't just be determined by money vs. reward risk when you draft. otherwise why even draft at all in the first round? you will end up like the redskins under the former bear dc george allen and even without the the salary cap at that time it just didn't work. drafting high... will you miss sometimes? absolutely! but the old saying if you DON'T try you will NEVER succeed. if teams that draft consistanly in the top 5 spots can afford it every year why can't the bear organization in the few times over decades afford it? i think the fact that this franchise has had TWO quality qb's (one was a free agent) in 40 years speaks volumes of the risk reward consequences. these are some interesting draft stats. below are chicago bear hall of fame players and where they were drafted: HOF 1st round top 10 picks 1. Clyde Bulldog Turner 7th pick 1st round 2. Joe Stydahar 6th pick 1st round 3. Gayle Sayers 4th pick 1st round 4. Walther Payton 4th pick 1st round 5. Dan Hampton 4th pick 1st round 6. George McAfee 2nd pick 1st round (drafted by eagles and immediately traded to bears) 7. Sid Luckman 2nd pick 1st round 8. Mike Ditka 5th pick 1st round 9. George Connor 5th pick 1st round (drafted by ny giants) 10. Dick Butkus 3rd pick 1st round HOF 1st round picks 11 - + 1. Doug Atkins 11th pick 1st round HOF later rounds 1. Mike Singletary 38th pick 2nd round 3. Bill George 2nd round 2. Stan Jones 5th round 6. Richard Dent 8th round 4. Danny Fortmann 9th round pick 5. George Blanda 12th round HOF not listed as draft picks. prior to 1936 1. Bronco Nagurski 2. George Musso 3. Roy Lyman 4. Bill Hewitt 5. Ed Healey 6. George Halas 7. John Driscol

i have to respectfully disagree with the assessment on mariani. as any kind of return man he is done. totally agree. but... as a #3 or a #4 slot receiver i believe he has done above average. he has good hands, he runs good routes and seems to nearly always get good separation plus he knows where the first down markers are. also he plays tough, can take a hit and stays healthy which NONE of our receivers seem to be able to do. in my opinion there is a spot on this team for him as a receiver and i would keep him if possible. whether cutler is as good as originally thought is basically a debateable point. i would say he was not but still was a very good qb. we will never know because the problem was that there was absolutely no supporting cast thanks to our GM and nearly the worst coaching staffs i may have ever seen. he had THE WORST offensive line i have EVER seen on any professional football team and limited to no viable passing weapons to support any kind of passing game. the ONLY thing that cutler had that was worth a tinkers dam was mat forte, period. he was virtually beaten to a pulp in chicago. there are two reasons he is playing like a game manager: 1. this is the game plan from the existing coaching staff. 2. with the lack of talent AND injuries (see below) it is the smart way to do it and have any hope of success. he has no time to set up deep passing routes and the only factor keeping him from being smashed every other play because of poor line pllay is the quick release. add to this factor the quality of his receiving corp (see below). there just is not the horses to run a legitimate NFL offense like you may or may not want or at the least have the option to do so. OFFENSIVE LINE: if continuity means anything to an offensive line there has been only ONE position the entire season with the same player at his starting position, RT kyle long, and his play has been sub average. RIGHT TACKLE starter kyle long - below average RT the RIGHT GUARD position has been filled by starter ducasse and i believe omameh for a while after an injury?. neither are even average players. the CENTER position was filled by starter montgomery (average at best) who was injured in game 4 (replaced by slauson who is an average at best center) and then replaced by grasu who is way below average until he was injured and replaced again by slauson. LEFT GUARD position was filled by slauson (who is in my estimation an above average LG only) by omameh (who is a sub par LG) when slauson moved over to center. LEFT TACKLE position was filled by starter bushrod (a below average LT) and replaced by leno who is better but still a below average LT after bushrod's injury. First Number equals number of games played in. Second Number equals games started Center: Will Montgomery - 4 - 4 Hroniss Grasu - 8 - 8 Rookie Matt Slauson G/C - 15 - 15 Right Guard: Vlad Ducasse RG - 14 - 10 Patrick Omameh - LG/RG - 13 - 8 Left Guard: Matt Slauson G/C - 15 - 15 Patrick Omameh LG/RG - 13 - 8 Right Tackle: Kyle Long RT - 15 - 15 Left Tackle: Jermon Bushrod LT - 11 - 3 Charles Leno LT/OG - 15 - 12 WIDE RECEIVERS CORP: none of the starting receiver corp has played in every game (or even close). the most consistantly healthy player is mariani who is a #3 or #4 reciever. other than him, all have been injured (including wilson) and out for multiple games and played with nagging injuries. we have started walk on's and practice squad receivers at best as our multiple starters each game. Kevin White WR - 0 - 0 Alshon Jeffery WR - 9 - 8 Eddie Royal WR - 9 - 9 Marquess Wilson WR - 11 - 6 Marc Mariani WR - 15 - 4 Josh Bellamy WR - 15 - 2 Cameron Meredith WR - 10 - 0 Rookie Deonte Thompson WR - 6 - 0 TIGHT ENDS: our starting tight end has missed multiple games and has had significant injury in many that he actually started in. miller took up a lot of slack but still you need more than one to be successful especially in the type of offense we were running or were forced to run. Martellus Bennett TE - 11 - 11 Zach Miller TE - 15 - 14 Khari Lee TE - 15 - 6

i'm sorry but that was an intentional move to injure the qb. he had control of cutler if he wanted to make a conventional tackle. he actually LIFTED him up and reverse slammed his upper body and head into the turf using cutlers momentum to cause injury. very similar to a judo throw or a suplex if you are a wrestling fan... http://prowrestling.wikia.com/wiki/Suplex you can say anything you want but it was malicious intent to cause injury.

the officials, for whatever reason, rarely call roughing the passer when cutler is on the field. a game or two ago (maybe the packer game?) a D lineman takes at least two steps and puts the crown of his helmet on cutlers sternum AFTER the ball was released. clearly a late hit, clearly a hit leading with the crown of the helmet. no flag. this has happened numerous times in cutlers tenure in chicago. late hits, blows to the head, piling on etc. it makes ya wonder what the hell is going on with officating and why, in a time of babying qb's in the nfl, cutler doesn't even get blatant roughing calls.

i have seen excellent kickers over the decades suddenly hit the wall and not pull out of the death spiral. is it physical or mental? sometimes both but usually mental for whatever reason (they are a little flaky to begin with) and i agree with this sentiment. soldier field is a challenge to find one with consistency, but... you pull the leash tighter on him. if his consistency keeps wavering you have to move on. you absolutely can not afford a kicker you can't depend on. it changes the entire aspect of your offense and game strategy.

agree. if you are mathematically out of contention you play your second and third string players to see whether they have a spot on next seasons roster. you may have to balance vets that are free agents to give them the chance to show their abilities for the next season but if you play vets that are under contract for next year and they are a lock for your roster you do so sparingly. urlacher comes to mind... it was the last game of the season and we were out of contention. lovie keeps him there until the last snap of a meaningless game in which he is injured on nearly the last play. this was a career altering injury that served no purpose other than to help keep lovie his job and probably cut urls career down by at least 2 years.

i have to disagree. at the end of the 'tackle' he made a move to deliberately slam cutlers upper body into the turf that had nothing to do with tackling him. this was not like he got rolled on or a hard tackle to take him to the turf. it was intent to disable the opponents qb plain and simple. this type of tackle would have been questionable 30 years ago. in today's nfl? he is fined and suspended.

this was pretty disgusting. this is how you end QB's careers by slamming them on the turf like it was all-star-wrestling. lots of chances for permanent shoulder damage to say nothing of severe concussions. this guy should have been flagged and ejected immediately. very reminiscent of charles martin's body slam on mcmahon. anyone doubting cutlers toughness needs to just shut the hell up. as others on this thread have posted... if a player slammed tom brady or a. rogers like that they would be kicked out of freaking north america.

iggy pop? that's your example? what's to forgive in mcmahon or mcmichel? they were released and signed with another team to play football. same with ditka going to dallas to play and become a coach. that's life in professional football. i have absolutely no problem with that at all. i personally could care less what ditka does or doesn't do. i didn't have much respect for him in the first place. it just struck me as sad to see someone debase himself like that for money in a national spotlight. to pimp yourself to sell a freaking hamburger (unless you were broke and trying to support your family or starving). where is the integrity and at the very least, self respect? it reminds me of the Magic Christian when peter sellers casts pound notes into a vat of raw sewage while london businessmen in suits and boler hats dive in for the free floating money. that leads to: what is the bottom line you would stoop to for the sake of money, especially if you didn't need it?

to me... not so funny. for someone who puts bread on his table from enterprises in chicago it's a stupid move. especially after we have gotten our asses handed to us by them for nearly 20 years. i ain't going to lose any sleep over it but it sure makes ditka look like the whore for money he really is. the color ditka really bleeds is green as in the color of money.

integrity in the game is EVERYTHING! without it it's not a sport... it's an exhibition.

if true, i guess this is how you build dynasties. http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/135...-patriots-apart

i am in disagreement. i really like the traditional uniforms including the helmets. the colors are good and they have style and class. the only possible change i could stomach would be the older white C on the helmet. other than that... let them be.

i am your father Boston, come to the dark side.

again, to continue to be redundant (i guess nobody has answered this question with any clarity)... if there is NO substantial benefit WHY DO IT? lifetime may seem like nonsense to you. to me it does not. 1. he is in charge of the pats team day to day. this situation has been going on for years and to believe that he is unaware of it after all the controversy in the past over this subject is in itself "nonsense". 2. 2013 - allegations: "Marshall Faulk: Patriots cheated the Rams out of a Super Bowl http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/...f-a-super-bowl/ 2007 - superbowl contestant (lost to giants): "The Patriots were videotaping the Jets' coaches from their own sideline which is not allowed. The act was deemed by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell to be in violation of league rules, causing him to say when penalizing the Patriots that this episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field. After meeting with Goodell on February 13, 2008 Specter reported that Goodell told him that Belichick had been engaged in the practice since he became head coach of the Patriots in 2000." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_Engl...ing_controversy personnel hired by billy: josh mcdaniels patriots coaching staff 1999 - 2008. involved in patriots spygate 1? the NFL says no evidence but come ON... really? denver head coach 2008-2009 involved in denver bronco's spygate 2 a) Fox Sports: When FOX NFL Sunday's Jay Glazer reported that McDaniels explained the difference between what happened this time in London and what occurred in his and Scarnecchia’s New England past, he reportedly told his staff, “That was practiced, that was coached, that was worked on.” McDaniels was basically pointing his finger at Belichick as the coach who practiced and coached that rogue style of taping anything, even if it meant sneaking into stadiums or buildings close to an opposition’s practice field. god-ell: “The coach’s failure to do so is inconsistent with the Policy on Integrity of the Game, which imposes an obligation on executives, head coaches and others with knowledge of violations to report them promptly,” Goodell wrote. “Because Coach McDaniels failed to do so, I have decided to impose a fine on him of $50,000. I have also, as you know, personally discussed this matter with Coach McDaniels, and have emphasized his critical role in fostering and maintaining a culture of integrity within the football organization. I believe that he now understands his responsibilities in this respect, and am hopeful that he will live up to those responsibilities in the future.” 2012 - 2015 - patriots offensive coordinator. billy actually HIRES this former employee (who it's hard for me to believe he wasn't involved in the first spygate) who has just been caught cheating on the same thing HE took the hit for 5 years previously!!!!!! that my friend is arrogance. now we are led to believe, tom brady's former QB coach and current OC knows NOTHING of this practice? seriously??? Steve Scarnecchia 2001 and 2005 patriots employee hired by billy Scarnecchia worked for the Patriots between 2001 and 2005. As NFL.com wrote, "He [scarnecchia] was found to have participated in the videotaping when he worked for the Patriots in the early 2000s." Because of this, Scarnecchia is facing expulsion from the NFL for a second offense. He may be barred from the league for life. 2008 - 2009 worked for broncos - hired by mcdaniels again caught cheating for the same thing by illegally filming 9ers practice in london. banned you say? obviously not as he was hired in by the falcons, another team with cheating problems. way to go god-ell. Jim McNally patriots employee for over a decade also a part time Kraft employee. McNally previously drew league scrutiny more than a decade ago, the report said, after Patriots ball boys relayed non-approved practice balls into an Oct. 25, 2004, game. There was actually no game on that day, but the Patriots beat the Jets 13-7 on Oct. 24, 2004. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/p...colts/22216585/ "He is in charge of the officials’ locker room at Gillette Stadium, a job he has held since 2008" "McNally attempted to give the unapproved ball to an official who was in charge of the special teams footballs in the Patriots-Colts AFC Championship Game." "on page 87 of the report, when McNally sent a text to Jastremski on November 30, 2014, during a Patriots’ away game at Green Bay. The text read: “Deflate and give somebody that jkt.” -- investigators were not able to discuss the text with McNally because Patriots council refused to make him available http://heavy.com/sports/2015/02/jim-mcnall...e-bio-info-age/ John Jastremski also involved in the deflate a gate cheating investigation. culpable in the extreme. 3. see any kind of a pattern here? these are just the cheaters we know about. should his new nickname really be the 'teflon' coach? that said... is the severity of cheating different than having gambling ties? i only ask because pete rose gets banned for life (i agree with this) and billy was actually, officially, cheating at the time of winning MULTIPLE superbowls. hmmm.... seems like he just rolls along creating an atmosphere of cheating, lies, distrust and suspicion that has legs giving the NFL a black eye they can't afford.

if this were the bears i would want it at LEAST as stiff a penalty. if walter payton in his prime was caught cheating then i would want the same penalty if not more. the reason being if you can't play the game or win it fairly under the existing rules, it is not worth jack $h!t. it is a disservice to your team, your teammates, the NFL in a whole and your fans. actually i did not know that. thank you. now i won't gag every time i eat a box of kraft mac & cheese (at least because he was involved with producing it). my apologies to kraft cheese company and all the cows i have slandered in their name.

i completely agree with you. in my estimation: the pats should NOT be eligible for any playoff or superbowl games for the entire 2015 season. just like college ball. if they cheat and are caught they can't go to a bowl game. i would have targeted a lifetime suspension for billicek. a year suspension would and SHOULD be the absolute minimum he receives. and nothing for the owner of this franchise? the guy who DEMANDED an apology? in my estimation this is at LEAST the second time cheese boy kraft's cash cow patriots have cheated since he owned them to win a freaking superbowl. no warning from the NFL commish? not even a peep from god - ell? he should be fined millions and WARNED that any reasonably serious rule violations in the future result in his franchise being taken away from him and he is banned for LIFE. losing a first round pick? it's the freaking 32 pick!! take away 2 firsts in a row and see how that flies. finally... if money is your driving force i would trade away the wrist slap fines for cheating any day of the week for the hard cash i would receive by winning a SB. fining the team a million dollars is absolutely nothing. especially when you consider the massive amounts of money a team gets when they play in and/or WIN a superbowl. it's spit in a hurricane. consider just the amounts the players receive for playing in a superbowl (not to mention endorcements) and then consider the amount LOST by players who didn't cheat and never made it there this past season possibly due to the pats cheating. these are guys that had the money stolen from them by the patriot's organization. yet NFL corporate does nothing of substance to the commish's camping buddy kraft. EDIT: brady should have been suspended for a full year without pay and had all stats for the 2014 season removed from the record books.