madlithuanian Posted January 6 Author Report Share Posted January 6 11 hours ago, dawhizz said: 1. I appreciate that his players seem to like him and going through a lot of weird stuff this year, but also can't deny that Flus' decisions has lost games this year. Maybe he's getting better. But I can't forget that the Bears lost three games where they had a lead in the fourth quarter and he's a defensive guy. I'm not sold. 2. I think Getsy has the most riding on the Packers game. He's had some of his own head-scratching decisions from a play calling standpoint. He needs to prove he believes in the offense, and Fields, to make his case to stay. 3. The question Poles needs to answer is: Is it more important to me to be competitive or to win a Super Bowl? I think Fields gives you the best chance to be competitive in the short term and going forward. I think Williams/Maye, if you get the pick right and believe in the player from a skill and a mental standpoint, gives you best chance to eventually win a Super Bowl. 1. I agree. And let's not forget, the team looked woefully unprepared to start the season. 2. Getsy would certainly do himself a lot of favors by not turtle-heading in the second half and make actual adjustments. 3. Great points. My overall though on the QB's in the draft is none are a sure thing. Elway, Manning (Peyton), and Luck were. None of these current guys resemble what those 3 were. There have been non- #1 overall prospects that have succeeded greatly. But, the top...not many. Which is why I think, the answer to both long term and SB success if to parlay that first pick to a haul. Line everything up from top to bottom except the QB. Get a better OC, and give Fields a chance to truly shine. It's what SF, PIT and a few other successful squads have done. If it doesn't work, sell the farm next year and get a QB. Maybe event he next Manning in a couple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 6 Author Report Share Posted January 6 11 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: Poles is a player’s GM. Since he’s used to being in the locker room that’s where he feels comfortable. If the players are ok with it and he’s able to make the tough decisions when it matters (as you say) then I have no issue with it. Gotta think Ian Cunningham is due some credit to Poles and the team’s success in drafting and personnel management. I suspect he’ll be gone this year. I read the Commanders and Raiders are eyeballing him for GM. The silver lining is that if he gets hires as GM the Bears get another draft pick or two (?) I think Cunningham getting a gig would get us a 3rd round pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 6 Author Report Share Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: like I said, if a player believes Poles loves him, they may hold out for more money, and it may make deals harder to make. As one example of why its a conflict even if it doesnt prevent Poles from being tough - it sends incorrect signals. Sorry, but I don't see that in the least. A player will hold out for money because he thinks he's wroth that and he knows/thinks he can get a comparable or better offer elsewhere. I feel the opposite, in fact. If you have a tight relationship w/ the GM, you'd be more likely to accept less. But, really it's all individual. Poles apparently didn't like Roquan. Liked Kmet. No deal and deal. So, who really knows... My thought is let it play out. Poles has shown far more positives than negatives. I'm going to let him do his job and then assess after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 6 minutes ago, madlithuanian said: Sorry, but I don't see that in the least. A player will hold out for money because he thinks he's wroth that and he knows/thinks he can get a comparable or better offer elsewhere. I feel the opposite, in fact. If you have a tight relationship w/ the GM, you'd be more likely to accept less. But, really it's all individual. Poles apparently didn't like Roquan. Liked Kmet. No deal and deal. So, who really knows... My thought is let it play out. Poles has shown far more positives than negatives. I'm going to let him do his job and then assess after. This one criticism I have of Poles doesnt negate all the good hes done and i support him being retained as GM 100% - hes done a great job. I am just concerned that this particular thing is a conflict that will come into play as we have to move on from good players who are liked in the future. To the scenario i mentioned, no one takes less money because they like the GM, but they might misjudge how much Poles will give them if they think he has a personal relationship with them. Thats the conflict, and it is one. It would be in any business. And its not a big deal, Im not against Poles or anything, it's just one aspect i think he should correct is all. But if Warren wants to play bad cop it kind of makes Poles an assistant GM to Warren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 39 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: like I said, if a player believes Poles loves him, they may hold out for more money, and it may make deals harder to make. As one example of why its a conflict even if it doesnt prevent Poles from being tough - it sends incorrect signals. Still disagree. Business is business, especially when agents get involved. It's only personal for the athlete because they play emotionally as if their life depended on it. They don't want to move and/or leave their coaches and teammates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 8 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said: Still disagree. Business is business, especially when agents get involved. It's only personal for the athlete because they play emotionally as if their life depended on it. They don't want to move and/or leave their coaches and teammates. right, but the agent has to determine what he thinks the highest the Bears will pay is? If the GM is loving all over the player, that raises that expected number. Its the same reason in the draft. lets say the Bears are 100% committed to Justin and will trade out of the #1 pick. Does Poles come out next week and give a glowing report on Justin? No way! he wants to make smoke like hes gonna draft a QB at #1, and it might be the QB your team wants. That increases the trade value. Its the same thing. You dont go buy a car and spend time telling the salesman how much you love the car before you negotiate a price! This is all well known stuff. I just think Poles is too close to the players. Im not saying to fire him or anything like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 28 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: right, but the agent has to determine what he thinks the highest the Bears will pay is? If the GM is loving all over the player, that raises that expected number. Its the same reason in the draft. lets say the Bears are 100% committed to Justin and will trade out of the #1 pick. Does Poles come out next week and give a glowing report on Justin? No way! he wants to make smoke like hes gonna draft a QB at #1, and it might be the QB your team wants. That increases the trade value. Its the same thing. You dont go buy a car and spend time telling the salesman how much you love the car before you negotiate a price! This is all well known stuff. I just think Poles is too close to the players. Im not saying to fire him or anything like that. Now, you are looking up a dead goats ass with this debate. The GM knows what he'll pay before the negotiation even starts. It's never personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 6 Author Report Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said: This one criticism I have of Poles doesnt negate all the good hes done and i support him being retained as GM 100% - hes done a great job. I am just concerned that this particular thing is a conflict that will come into play as we have to move on from good players who are liked in the future. To the scenario i mentioned, no one takes less money because they like the GM, but they might misjudge how much Poles will give them if they think he has a personal relationship with them. Thats the conflict, and it is one. It would be in any business. And its not a big deal, Im not against Poles or anything, it's just one aspect i think he should correct is all. But if Warren wants to play bad cop it kind of makes Poles an assistant GM to Warren. Sorry, I've been in finance brokering deals for over 35 years...not one soul has tried to freak us over who we are friends with. It's the ones you don't like or don't know. It gets contentious. If you know/like them, it's boilerplate. Sure, anything is possible. All the things you can criticize Poles for, like Claypool, etc...this isn't one of them that he's chummy w/ players. And is he really? Or is that for show? We don't know. So, honestly speculating on it seems like jousting at windmills. Respect that you think "something is up". But, I just don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 20 minutes ago, madlithuanian said: Sorry, I've been in finance brokering deals for over 35 years...not one soul has tried to freak us over who we are friends with. It's the ones you don't like or don't know. It gets contentious. If you know/like them, it's boilerplate. Sure, anything is possible. All the things you can criticize Poles for, like Claypool, etc...this isn't one of them that he's chummy w/ players. And is he really? Or is that for show? We don't know. So, honestly speculating on it seems like jousting at windmills. Respect that you think "something is up". But, I just don't see it. all good, and I never criticized Poles for Jones or Claypool - I know he was in a tough spot and had to reach at that point for WRs - and you never want to have to reach, and that's why. But it was the situation he was in. So i never really criticized him for that, but instead defended him. I just think that the GM shouldnt want to be one of the guys - some coaches do that, but the GM should be more detached. I cant think of another NFL GM thats routinely in the locker room and hugging players - can anyone point me to another example of this commonly happening? And if you disagree madlith, thats all fine! - its just sportstalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 18 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: can anyone point me to another example of this commonly happening? Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Carmen Policy, Red Aurbach, Dr Jerry Buss, Ozzie Newsome, Larry Bird (as pacers president) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 3 hours ago, BearFan PHX said: like I said, if a player believes Poles loves him, they may hold out for more money, and it may make deals harder to make. As one example of why its a conflict even if it doesnt prevent Poles from being tough - it sends incorrect signals. Sorta like had Poles negotiated with Johnson earlier this season (when he allegedly was seeking to be traded), Poles would’ve saved a lot more money than waiting until now. 🤷🏻♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 6 Author Report Share Posted January 6 57 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: all good, and I never criticized Poles for Jones or Claypool - I know he was in a tough spot and had to reach at that point for WRs - and you never want to have to reach, and that's why. But it was the situation he was in. So i never really criticized him for that, but instead defended him. I just think that the GM shouldnt want to be one of the guys - some coaches do that, but the GM should be more detached. I cant think of another NFL GM thats routinely in the locker room and hugging players - can anyone point me to another example of this commonly happening? And if you disagree madlith, thats all fine! - its just sportstalk. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 3 hours ago, BearFan PHX said: no Im not. please dont make this some kind of personal issue that I have some kind of personal problem with Poles. Im not looking for anything any more than youre looking for a reason to think I have a problem. Are you? Me either. This is coming from the idea that Im a negative person looking for problems, which was Stingers narrative about my criticisms of Fields. Please dont buy into that crap. I have said nothing but good things about him, and I want us to keep him. Hes doing an excellent job, But its the coaches job to love the players, and I think the GM should keep more distance. Its a conflict of interest. Every time I disagree with you, you think it is me taking things personal. No, I don't take it personal. I just disagree. (Speaking from past experiences, I'm currently retired). If I am dealing with a client who is an asshole, you better believe I'm not going to give him a break, even if he may deserve it from the argument he has given. If anything, I might add to the bill. LOL If I am dealing with a client who has "shown me some love" by treating me with respect, you better believe I am going to give him a break when I go to write up the bill. I want him to feel the love. (I thought it better than hugging him/her. 😉 ) If I am a player and my GM and HC, coaching staff, and locker room shows me some love, you bet I will consider that when my agent is talking to me about the latest offer. However, if I don't feel that love from everyone, especially the GM and HC, I will want out of there. Trade me. Cut me. But I will leave even if it means taking less money elsewhere. So, IMHO, (don't take it personal 😉 ) I disagree. If anything, Poles showing his appreciation for his players is a positive. You must not be a "hugger". I love hugging my kids (and grandkids) every time I get a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 2 hours ago, Mongo3451 said: Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Carmen Policy, Red Aurbach, Dr Jerry Buss, Ozzie Newsome, Larry Bird (as pacers president) and werent most of those kind of embarrassing? like the GMs wanted to be one of the guys? Also Im just speaking of the NFL. The only NFL one on that list that wasnt cringey was Ozzie Newsome, and he was blazing a new path at the time of increasing minority leadership, so that connection with the players made a lot of sense. I dont remember Policy being in the locker room except after championships? A lot of people thought that Jerry Jones and Al Davis' involvement and ego was a detriment to their teams. Without the incredibly one sided Herschel Walker trade, Jones wouldnt have the same cred or super bowls. But in general, NFL GMs dont usually hang out with players, and also all the people you listed were somewhat legendary. Poles isnt like that. I think Poles isnt authoritative enough in this way, and Im curious to see if he will be able to trade good players a year before their contracts expire like new England did with Akiem Hicks for example. I worry that Poles is too much of a team player, and wants to appease what coaches want etc. Not that hes made bad decisions so far - hes done a great job - but that was shipping off players he didnt have relationships with, and acquiring talent so far. I just wonder if he could let a guy like Justin go if that was the right decision. Im sure he can cut bad players, but will he turn his back on good players to keep the cap healthy and the pipeline of new players full? And if Im right about this, then hopefully Kevin Warren is the bad cop from above. But if so, that kind of diminishes Poles' power. Anyway, its something to keep an eye on - and certainly not a giant problem. As I said, Im all for keeping Poles. I just want him to be a little less green I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 31 minutes ago, Pixote said: Every time I disagree with you, you think it is me taking things personal. No, I don't take it personal. I just disagree. (Speaking from past experiences, I'm currently retired). If I am dealing with a client who is an asshole, you better believe I'm not going to give him a break, even if he may deserve it from the argument he has given. If anything, I might add to the bill. LOL If I am dealing with a client who has "shown me some love" by treating me with respect, you better believe I am going to give him a break when I go to write up the bill. I want him to feel the love. (I thought it better than hugging him/her. 😉 ) If I am a player and my GM and HC, coaching staff, and locker room shows me some love, you bet I will consider that when my agent is talking to me about the latest offer. However, if I don't feel that love from everyone, especially the GM and HC, I will want out of there. Trade me. Cut me. But I will leave even if it means taking less money elsewhere. So, IMHO, (don't take it personal 😉 ) I disagree. If anything, Poles showing his appreciation for his players is a positive. You must not be a "hugger". I love hugging my kids (and grandkids) every time I get a chance. Pix, you literally just said that I "must be looking for a reason not to like Poles" - thats personal. That I have a vendetta and Im looking for reason to support it? Then you said I "must not be a hugger" but you hug your kids. What is that? Especially since this thread is literally the first time Ive ever said anything critical of Poles? And Im not mad at you, and Im surely not fighting with you. Im not looking for a fight. I ended one longstanding one with another poster. Thats all that happened. And you also made my point saying your business relationships and decisions are affected by your personal relationships. Thats good and normal in any other business than a GM for pro sports where you have to make tough decisions with guys you might like? Also, no, every time we disagree I dont say that you are being personal. I only said it once to you before and it was for the same thing "It looks like youre just looking for things to be critical about Fields about" - well Im not, I just disagree with you, and youre the one saying that my dislike must come first and facts cherry picked after to support that. This is ALL fallout from the nonsense with Stinger. Im telling you, I get that most of you didnt see it. It went on at a low level for YEARS. i had enough. Now I have some kind of belief that Im a negative guy. Im gonna tell you right now, I am actually an incredible optimist in my life, and I hug my daughter every chance I get. Im an excellent father. Not really necessary to bring that kind of thing in here. But all I can say is youve read me entirely wrong. I set a boundary (one that ANY of you would have set int he same position) with Stinger. Thats all that happened. That and I said things about Fields that literally every football pundit has also said. Please recalculate you opinion of me, or if not, then keep the comments to arguing with why I say, and not my character, or imagined personal vendettas against players and coaches. Its just sportstalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 18 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: Pix, you literally just said that I "must be looking for a reason not to like Poles" - thats personal. That I have a vendetta and Im looking for reason to support it? Then you said I "must not be a hugger" but you hug your kids. What is that? Especially since this thread is literally the first time Ive ever said anything critical of Poles? ANd you also made my point saying your business relationships and decisions are affected by your personal relationships. Thats good and normal in any other business than a GM for pro sports where you have to make tough decisions with guys you might like? Also, no, every time we disagree I dont say that you are being personal. I only said it once to you before and it was for the same thing "It looks like youre just looking for things to be critical about Fields about" - well Im not, I just disagree with you, and youre the one saying that my dislike must come first and facts cherry picked after to support that. This is ALL fallout from the nonsense with Stinger. Im telling you, I get that most of you didnt see it. It went on at a low level for YEARS. i had enough. Now I have some kind of belief that Im a negative guy. Im gonna tell you right now, I am actually an incredible optimist in my life, and I hug my daughter every chance I get. Im an excellent father. Not really necessary to bring that kind of thing in here. But all I can say is youve read me entirely wrong. I set a boundary (one that ANY of you would have set int he same position) with Stinger. Thats all that happened. That and I said things about Fields that literally every football pundit has also said. Please recalculate you opinion of me, or if not, then keep the comments to arguing with why I say, and not my character, or imagined personal vendettas against players and coaches. Its just sportstalk. (Shaking my head in disbelief.) I will not comment further on this topic for fear of being misunderstood. I obviously have poor communication skills. I never intended any of this to be of a personal nature. Believe me. That is not me. I apologize if that is they way you took my reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, Pixote said: (Shaking my head in disbelief.) I will not comment further on this topic for fear of being misunderstood. I obviously have poor communication skills. I never intended any of this to be of a personal nature. Believe me. That is not me. I apologize if that is they way you took my reply. yeah it's all good, and Im not mad or fighting with you - I have always respected you, and you have known me for like 15 years. This is a new rep I have about that fight with Stinger. Thats all - everything is fine. And Im very much a positive optimist in my life. The past year Ive been tough on the BEars because I want a winner and Im sick of being terrible and then being slightly less terrible, thinking weve turned the corner and then watching it go to crap again. That's been our franchise. Hopefully with Warren in charge as a buffer to the McCaskeys, something new can happen. But Im cynical about small growth is all. Because I want the Bears to be bold and be great. I miss the 1985 swagger so much. I want that kind of team. But its all from loving the Bears of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Ill add this - Pix please do continue to respond here, and to everyone. I am not sensitive about disagreement. say my ideas are dumb and all youll get back from me is a fact based argument. Its FINE. Please fire away! I'm just saying, in general, not to Pix or anyone in specific - that I dont personally decide a player or coach that I hate (or love) and then cherry pick data to fit it. I think you all saw my reaction to last weeks game. It changed my entire view of Fields. It didnt go from hate to like - it went from really awesome at some things but lacking in others to maybe the other skills are possible with more growth. And I went from 100% trade him to Im not sure. So any arguments about me being negative as a baseline, or hating a player or coach are just not true. But even if you say that or something like that Im still not gonna get mad about it. I got mad at one person for something that went on for many years, until I had to punch back. Whether anyone gets that or not, you will still not see me use bad words or fight with anyone else. You gotta really try over an extended period of time to get me angry, and Pix surely didnt do that here. Anyway, I knew being misunderstood this way was gonna be part of the price for punching back at Stinger. So be it. Its still preferable to the other options. But to those who can, if youve decided Im a jerk or whatever int he last few months, I get it, but it's not true, and maybe given time people will see that too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 On 1/6/2024 at 12:33 PM, Mongo3451 said: Now, you are looking up a dead goats ass with this debate. I am sorry but this was funny as hell. I literally spit out my coffee onto my keyboard when I saw this. Thanks Mongo! 🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 The NFL or any pro sports are such unique businesses. There are not many professions where you have a good chance of fired every year and you have no clue what your future looks like just a few months later. For players, it is even crazier. You could be on one year deals or non-guaranteed contracts and are literally a private subcontractor working new contracts every year. The GMs just become prime contractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, adam said: I am sorry but this was funny as hell. I literally spit out my coffee onto my keyboard when I saw this. Thanks Mongo! 🤣🤣 Old Italian saying...💪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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