Poles please blow this thing up

[madlithuanian]

1 hour ago, adam said:

Two is a trend, and you not only had those personnel issues, which the leader is ultimately responsible for, you had the 3x collapses on the field. Again, one, ok, two? Come on, but 3? He should've been fired after that Cleveland game. 

Agreed

[BearFan PHX]

50 minutes ago, adam said:

That's the thing, do teams even announce that when coaches are under contract? Same with players, normally they are on the team without an announcement or cut/traded with an announcement.

I know Ted Phillips and McCaskey did that silly press conference, but that seemed more of a one off than anything.

I have to do some Google searches as I am honestly curious on that one. 

 

right, I get the point, hes under contract, no need for an announcement. But then again, with all these press stories swirling, if he was staying, they could do the fans and Eberflus himself a favor and just say it? And they arent. So theyre waiting for something. Maybe just to finish their end of year analysis - Im not saying it points to any specific outcome, but i do expect some kind of announcement at some point?

[madlithuanian]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

and point to one time that he gave the team an edge in winning?

I'm stumped...

[BearFan PHX]

Just now, madlithuanian said:

I'm stumped...

yeah i dont get the Flus love, but what do i know?

[ASHKUM BEAR]

1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said:

right, I get the point, hes under contract, no need for an announcement. But then again, with all these press stories swirling, if he was staying, they could do the fans and Eberflus himself a favor and just say it? And they arent. So theyre waiting for something. Maybe just to finish their end of year analysis - Im not saying it points to any specific outcome, but i do expect some kind of announcement at some point?

They just finished player exits.  I am sure they met today to discuss the future plans.  I still believe they did their due diligence to feel out Harbaugh with a call today or will tomorrow. Hell, they might charter a plane and meet in person.  If Harbaugh is out, then they can decide if Flus is the answer or someone else.  Give it some time to play out, there is a little time yet to pull something off.

[Stinger226]

2 hours ago, madlithuanian said:

One such error is forgivable.  2 is a trend.  It's his fault because he hired them both. If you have no accountability for your hires, how exactly does that work?  It wasn't fLose that let those people go.  It was either Warren or Poles or the combo of both.  There is a trend of lack of accountability on fLose's part.  This is one of many instances. 

If you want to blindly follow a man with so many issues on and off the field, go nuts.  I'm out on him.  If he proves me wrong, I'd be happier than a pig in slop.  But, I've been around long enough to know when to fold em.  

It's a very odd situation but if they move on from Flus it's not because of the coaches issues. Everyone of those coaches were on the Colts together and no one got fired. What ever they did just didn't start the minute they became bear assistants. It's usually has come up before. It very could have been accepted in Indy and Poles set rules they broke and not here. That will have nothing to do with it if they fire Flus. If that was the case he would have been let go when the second coach left.

[BearFan PHX]

Just now, ASHKUM BEAR said:

They just finished player exits.  I am sure they met today to discuss the future plans.  I still believe they did their due diligence to feel out Harbaugh with a call today or will tomorrow. Hell, they might charter a plane and meet in person.  If Harbaugh is out, then they can decide if Flus is the answer or someone else.  Give it some time to play out, there is a little time yet to pull something off.

yes this is exactly what Im thinking. Im just looking for meaning in the fact that they havent already said anything, and of course Im grasping at straws, but i come away with the same answer youre saying.

[BearFan PHX]

as to Eberflus and his hires that exited etc - its not just about whether Eberflus should have known, because I get that he wouldnt. But whether it's Eberflus, or Fields or whatever, we dont see much accountability. We dont see a standard being held, we just see nice guys that we want to protect.

It comes down to this same question - if you know a coach or players isnt bad but isnt great, do you give them more chances, or do you fire them, not because they were terrible, but simply because you dont believe they will ever be elite?

Being elite means top 5 or whatever, so of 32 teams, 27 professional starters are not elite. You might say firing them all is crazy. You might say who will you find that you know will be elite?

And my answer would be, I dunno. No one elite is just sitting there without a job. But I think you have to keep searching and trying to find elite, and that means firing competent mediocrity. It's not "fair" but it's the only way to find elite players and coaches.

And on top of this both Fields and Eberflus have shown their share of incompetence too.

[Stinger226]

Did anyone here listen to  the Josh Lucas interview on the SCORE? He was an assistant to Ryan Pace. He said if they were going to fired it will happen with in 48 hours of the end of the season. That ends tonight. He said the only way that would change was if someone they liked became available and decided to upgrade the position. Example: Vabrel got fired today and Poles wants him instead. A similar situation as the Cubs manager change.

Lucas also said that fans are emotional but the relationship between Poles and Flus is a lot stronger on the inside of the room that the public doesn't see. Making it a lot harder to change. He said Poles and Flus came into the organization as first time hires and they have a bond of going through challenges together. Poles sees the team improve not the negative outlook of fans. He sees the players having Flus back which is a good trait for a coach. He ties his success with Flus success. If he fires him he sees himself as a failure. Remember he hired him.

He also said he thinks there drafting Caleb Williams. Justin is a starting QB but has limited upside where Williams has a higher ceiling. Poles is not going to draft Williams if his intangibles are bad, he's a high character guy. He said they will have a private investigator check him out and one bad report kills that report. He said they may want Maybe instead because of a better investigation report but that work isn't done yet, so no one knows just yet.

[Stinger226]

16 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

as to Eberflus and his hires that exited etc - its not just about whether Eberflus should have known, because I get that he wouldnt. But whether it's Eberflus, or Fields or whatever, we dont see much accountability. We dont see a standard being held, we just see nice guys that we want to protect.

It comes down to this same question - if you know a coach or players isnt bad but isnt great, do you give them more chances, or do you fire them, not because they were terrible, but simply because you dont believe they will ever be elite?

Being elite means top 5 or whatever, so of 32 teams, 27 professional starters are not elite. You might say firing them all is crazy. You might say who will you find that you know will be elite?

And my answer would be, I dunno. No one elite is just sitting there without a job. But I think you have to keep searching and trying to find elite, and that means firing competent mediocrity. It's not "fair" but it's the only way to find elite players and coaches.

And on top of this both Fields and Eberflus have shown their share of incompetence too.

Those are good points that will be in Poles evaluation.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

36 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Did anyone here listen to  the Josh Lucas interview on the SCORE? He was an assistant to Ryan Pace. He said if they were going to fired it will happen with in 48 hours of the end of the season. That ends tonight. He said the only way that would change was if someone they liked became available and decided to upgrade the position. Example: Vabrel got fired today and Poles wants him instead. A similar situation as the Cubs manager change.

Lucas also said that fans are emotional but the relationship between Poles and Flus is a lot stronger on the inside of the room that the public doesn't see. Making it a lot harder to change. He said Poles and Flus came into the organization as first time hires and they have a bond of going through challenges together. Poles sees the team improve not the negative outlook of fans. He sees the players having Flus back which is a good trait for a coach. He ties his success with Flus success. If he fires him he sees himself as a failure. Remember he hired him.

He also said he thinks there drafting Caleb Williams. Justin is a starting QB but has limited upside where Williams has a higher ceiling. Poles is not going to draft Williams if his intangibles are bad, he's a high character guy. He said they will have a private investigator check him out and one bad report kills that report. He said they may want Maybe instead because of a better investigation report but that work isn't done yet, so no one knows just yet.

Lucas seemed like a tool. They cut him off saying they ran out of time right after they told him he cannot swear. He didn't sound too professional either and I felt like it was just a stoned fan playing them. 

[Stinger226]

1 minute ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Lucas seemed like a tool. They cut him off saying they ran out of time right after they told him he cannot swear. He didn't sound too professional either and I felt like it was just a stoned fan playing them. 

Obviously I don't agree with most his opinions but viewing the NFL from inside the room, he was in NO and Chicago as part of the team. He shows you something we don't normally have privy to. Not a very good talker .

[BearFan PHX]

9 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Lucas seemed like a tool. They cut him off saying they ran out of time right after they told him he cannot swear. He didn't sound too professional either and I felt like it was just a stoned fan playing them. 

LOL so maybe it wasnt even him?

[ASHKUM BEAR]

8 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Obviously I don't agree with most his opinions but viewing the NFL from inside the room, he was in NO and Chicago as part of the team. He shows you something we don't normally have privy to. Not a very good talker .

That might have been it.  He really slow talk made me feel like he was stoned.  I was like hurry up. 

He was a Cum Laude Harvard graduate and played safety.   

[ASHKUM BEAR]

9 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

That might have been it.  He really slow talk made me feel like he was stoned.  I was like hurry up. 

He was a Cum Laude Harvard graduate and played safety.   

I wasn't the only one who wondered about him.

 

 

[BearFan PHX]

OK I googled him, and here he is on TV, and yeah he talks reeeeaaaalllllllyyyyy sllllooooooooowwwww LOL

So it's him.

But what he knows about how Pace did things doesnt necessarily translate to Poles' and Warren's timeline.

We will all know soon enough I think. But damn i wanna know right now! lol
 

 

[Pixote]

This is dangerous. It seems like this is a one-sided condemnation of Flus, without him having any backers. Now, to be honest, I'm torn on the decision to replace him. If it someone like Harbough, count me in. But otherwise, I don't want to change just for the sake of changing, not knowing the next guy would be any better. Yes, I know, how could anyone be worse, right?  

I just want to make two points (my personal opinions, which I agree could be totally incorrect.)

It was said he needs to be replaced for his on and off the field performance. What off the field issues? Because Alan Williams resigned. Then the RB coach? Well, it isn't like Poles or Flus had any way of knowing the two guys would do something to cause the front office to take action. If so, a lot of people were fooled. Here is Williams' resume. (Was everyone guilty of bad decisions who hired him in the past?)

As a coach:

William & Mary (1996–1997)
Running backs coach
William & Mary (1998–2000)
Defensive backs coach
Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2001)
Defensive assistant
Indianapolis Colts (2002–2011)
Defensive backs coach
Minnesota Vikings (2012–2013)
Defensive coordinator
Detroit Lions (2014–2017)
Defensive backs coach
Indianapolis Colts (2018–2021)
Defensive backs coach
Chicago Bears (2022–2023)
Defensive coordinator

Flus and Poles, IMHO, did nothing wrong by hiring them. I know of no issues "off the field" that Flus or Poles should be criticized for.

Second Issue.

Everyone is asking what has Flus ever done resulting a Bears' victory. Shouldn't he get some credit for developing a damn good defense? Yes, he may have made some bad game-time decisions, calling plays on defense now that Williams resigned. He was really screwed when Williams left. As a HC still wet behind the ears, the last thing he needed was to wear two hats on the sidelines. Maybe a seasoned HC can take that duel responsibility.

Yet, despite some weaknesses in our defense, it was our defense we were all excited about during the second half of the season. It was our vastly improved defense that gave us the victories, not our offense. Not our special teams. Our defense gets the credit. If Flus is going to be credited for the failure of our OC, then we should at least acknowledge he did contribute to the development of our defense (without their resurgence, we would be picking #1 & #2 this year.)

Okay, I'm finished playing devils advocate. 😈

Pease. 😉

 

[BearFan PHX]

40 minutes ago, Pixote said:

This is dangerous. It seems like this is a one-sided condemnation of Flus, without him having any backers. Now, to be honest, I'm torn on the decision to replace him. If it someone like Harbough, count me in. But otherwise, I don't want to change just for the sake of changing, not knowing the next guy would be any better. Yes, I know, how could anyone be worse, right?  

I just want to make two points (my personal opinions, which I agree could be totally incorrect.)

It was said he needs to be replaced for his on and off the field performance. What off the field issues? Because Alan Williams resigned. Then the RB coach? Well, it isn't like Poles or Flus had any way of knowing the two guys would do something to cause the front office to take action. If so, a lot of people were fooled. Here is Williams' resume. (Was everyone guilty of bad decisions who hired him in the past?)

As a coach:

William & Mary (1996–1997)
Running backs coach
William & Mary (1998–2000)
Defensive backs coach
Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2001)
Defensive assistant
Indianapolis Colts (2002–2011)
Defensive backs coach
Minnesota Vikings (2012–2013)
Defensive coordinator
Detroit Lions (2014–2017)
Defensive backs coach
Indianapolis Colts (2018–2021)
Defensive backs coach
Chicago Bears (2022–2023)
Defensive coordinator

Flus and Poles, IMHO, did nothing wrong by hiring them. I know of no issues "off the field" that Flus or Poles should be criticized for.

Second Issue.

Everyone is asking what has Flus ever done resulting a Bears' victory. Shouldn't he get some credit for developing a damn good defense? Yes, he may have made some bad game-time decisions, calling plays on defense now that Williams resigned. He was really screwed when Williams left. As a HC still wet behind the ears, the last thing he needed was to wear two hats on the sidelines. Maybe a seasoned HC can take that duel responsibility.

Yet, despite some weaknesses in our defense, it was our defense we were all excited about during the second half of the season. It was our vastly improved defense that gave us the victories, not our offense. Not our special teams. Our defense gets the credit. If Flus is going to be credited for the failure of our OC, then we should at least acknowledge he did contribute to the development of our defense (without their resurgence, we would be picking #1 & #2 this year.)

Okay, I'm finished playing devils advocate. 😈

Pease. 😉

 

Hey Pix,

Some good points there for sure.

The first half is well argued. The list of NFL organizations that signed on to Williams is long. It is unfair to think Eberflus could have predicted it. I guess, I mean I dont know what actually happened, but yes, youre almost certainly right about that.

Still some organizations would move on anyway. But your point is well taken, and I am willing to concede it. So I'd say you removed that argument off the table.

The second point is different I feel.

The defense has certainly gotten better, but the defensive playcalling at the ends of games has been awful. Both could be attributable to Eberflus. The increase of talent level on the roster is also of Poles' doing of course, and the player development also of position coaches' work. So in both cases Eberflus shares credit at least?

But the defensive playcalling is all him. He's also made some atrocious decisions on the offensive side of the ball too. Game management, situational football, going for it when he should have taken the FG, sitting Sweat...

But none more damning than the general play it safe culture of coaching we've seen across both sides of the ball. Brisker was complaining that they were being coached to give the receivers too much of a cushion this week for example. That's not just about zone vs man etc, but that's about a general play not to lose vibe. It's classic Cover 2 thinking. Keep it in front of you. Bend dont break. etc.

It has also been punctuated by some really foolhardy decisions that were over-aggressive, mostly on 3rd and 4th and short. My guess is Eberflus wanted to "not be safe" but I think that being foolhardy between episodes of protective calls is not the same thing as being more aggressive in tone. I feel like having the DBs creep up 2 yards as a matter of course in your alignments is more along the lines of what Im talking about. Let the players use their talents.

But mostly its the conservative style that lost us three games we easily had in hand. That would put us in the playoffs. We got to a huge prevent way too early in historically significant ways.

I think you want your coach to be a difference maker. What I see in Eberflus is a professional to be sure. Being head coach is more than calling plays (it's not supposed to be that at all usually, but ok...) it's about organizing meetings, keeping player relationships, staying the course when things get rough - Eberflus has done a good job of all these things. Maybe even an excellent job. It's probably why people want to keep him.

But all of this is secondary in my mind to the product on the field. I don't personally see Eberflus as a guy who gives you an edge in winning.

Multiple former players have said that Belichick would tell his guys all week "when X happens, then theyre going to do Y. Go to Z and youll make a huge play" and then in the game it would happen just as he described it. I never saw any Bears play this year where it seemed like the Bears knew what was coming on offense or defense ahead of time and had a ready answer for it. We lose the Rock Paper Scissors part of it way more than we should.

What I saw was an increasingly talented roster in regular plays executing and having success. But I didnt see Eberflus outcoaching anyone at any point.

So that's why I think he should be fired.

As to whether the next guy would be better, you hope there are good candidates out there and that we find the right one, but for me, if you know a guy is never going to be elite, you gotta give the chance to someone else or you are guaranteeing you wont have an elite player or coach at that position.

Eberflus seems like a nice guy, hes a professional, organized, taking care of the players. All good stuff.

But does anyone think he will ever be an elite difference maker? Or is the argument just that incremental change might get you to the playoffs and then some upsets could magically happen and we might claw our way to success?

I want an organization that builds until they are the team to be feared in the playoffs. I dont see that even in the most optimistic scenarios for Eberflus?

Oh and last, I know we all agree that if you can get a known special difference make like Harbaugh, that makes the decision much easier of course! But if we cant, this is the debate. Do you keep "getting better" if you know "elite" isnt in the cards, or do people disagree and think "elite" is in Eberflus' future?

I would say personally that Fields has some chance to end up elite. I wouldnt bet on it, but I wouldnt put it at 0% either. But for me, I dont see any evidence that Eberflus will ever be elite?

[ASHKUM BEAR]

One huge thing to consider regardless of having the #1 pick is the Bears rarely fire a coach with 2 years left. Same goes with Justin Fields, he has at least one year left and will be a tough sell if they trade him for anything less than a 2nd.   We want instant success and we're far from it this year.  The plus was the team stood together and didn't implode except for maybe at GB. The only possible change is if Warren has the blessing to allow Poles to do so and hire a real (expensive) HC like Harbaugh. If it is having the top pick and the chance at a QB crowned generational as Williams was early in the college season, then Poles can trade that pick and accumulate two more years with an extra 1st to accomplish another reset at the QB position and possibly a shot at the next crowned guy.  Just some logical thinking at how the top is looking at this 

[BearFan PHX]

12 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

One huge thing to consider regardless of having the #1 pick is the Bears rarely fire a coach with 2 years left. Same goes with Justin Fields, he has at least one year left and will be a tough sell if they trade him for anything less than a 2nd.   We want instant success and we're far from it this year.  The plus was the team stood together and didn't implode except for maybe at GB. The only possible change is if Warren has the blessing to allow Poles to do so and hire a real (expensive) HC like Harbaugh. If it is having the top pick and the chance at a QB crowned generational as Williams was early in the college season, then Poles can trade that pick and accumulate two more years with an extra 1st to accomplish another reset at the QB position and possibly a shot at the next crowned guy.  Just some logical thinking at how the top is looking at this 

and if they do get a guy like Harbaugh, or honestly anyone else, either their opinion of Fields is going to be part of this, or they will be picked because they share Poles and Warrens view?

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Was reminded of a short sideline report from the game the other night where Tracey Wolfsen was heard saying something to the effect of ‘Kevin Warren sees this current situation similar to his time with the Rams’ when Dick Vermeil was the coach.  And that things ‘didn’t come together until year three’.

Looked it up (thanks Wikipedia) and lo and behold while with the Rams from ‘97-‘99 Vermiel went 5-11 in year one, 4-12 in year two (he regressed in year two) and won the Super Bowl in year three.  

But before you say ‘yeah but he hired Mike Martz and stumbled on Kurt Warner during that third year’…

Going back to 1976-1982 Vermiel entered an eerily similar situation with the Eagles as did Poles and Flus with the Bears.  ‘Due to trades made by the Eagles in previous seasons, Vermiel did not have a 1st round pick until 1979’.  And those first two years he compiled a record of 4-10 and 5-9 before making the playoffs in 1978 (the first time for them in 18 years).  Warren appears to refer to Vermiel quite often and I would guess views him as a form of mentor.  

And another nugget of intrigue comes in the form of a presser quote offered when he was hired as the Bears President.  “You’ve got to recognize when you build a house you build the basement first,” Warren said. “So when you drive by a house and you don’t see any progress above land, that doesn’t mean that building is not going on.” 
 

[adam]

So what type of OC is coming in knowing the HC is on the hot seat to start the season? How many OC's survive the HC being fired and are retained by the new HC? Does an new OC want to come to the Bears when the QB position is undecided? 

It feels like this has to be a clean sweep of the coaching staff, then bring in a new staff, and let them decide on what to do at QB.

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, adam said:

So what type of OC is coming in knowing the HC is on the hot seat to start the season? How many OC's survive the HC being fired and are retained by the new HC? Does an new OC want to come to the Bears when the QB position is undecided? 

It feels like this has to be a clean sweep of the coaching staff, then bring in a new staff, and let them decide on what to do at QB.

I agree with that, they either clean house or keep everyone, I want them to bring in a new OC and thinking no one will take that job is short sighted. It's probably more of an elevation of a QB coach that want to call plays, there's 32 of them in the league, former OCs or coaches that want a second chance to prove themselves. They won't have a problem if they do that.

[madlithuanian]

13 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

It's a very odd situation but if they move on from Flus it's not because of the coaches issues. Everyone of those coaches were on the Colts together and no one got fired. What ever they did just didn't start the minute they became bear assistants. It's usually has come up before. It very could have been accepted in Indy and Poles set rules they broke and not here. That will have nothing to do with it if they fire Flus. If that was the case he would have been let go when the second coach left.

He should have been let go when the second coach got fired.  Just because the Bears brass doesn't have the guts to do it, doesn't mean it shouldn't have been done.  But, ultimately he should be fired simple for his gross ineptness as a HC on the field.  He wasn't hired to be a DC.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

32 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

It's probably more of an elevation of a QB coach that want to call plays, there's 32 of them in the league, former OCs or coaches that want a second chance to prove themselves. They won't have a problem if they do that.

Or any college coach that wants to make a leap into the NFL who isn’t already an HC at that level.  A little more riskier but still a possibility . 
 

And this as a topic of conspiracy, not based on any current rumor or any potential fact but a ‘what-if’ if you will.  
 

Was reading up on the Harbaugh family recently and was reminded how much a football family the Harbaugh’s are.  Forgot that dad Jack was himself a successful HC and won a national championship at the D2 level and is currently the asst HC for Michigan (probably more ‘pro tempore’ than anything) and of course John himself a SB winner at the NFL level.  
 

Then there’s Jay Harbaugh, son of Jim who is currently Michigan’s ST coordinator (and one time interim HC this last season when dad was serving one of his suspensions).  “What if” a deal is in place with Jim that he has said how about my son come to Chicago as a coach on your staff?  Put him in it OC (or something else to get his feet wet and not be “obvious”) to see how he does?  Jim tells the Bears if next year your guys’ record still sucks come back to me and I’ll rethink about joining you.  In the meantime I’m gonna enjoy this new contract Michigan offered me and the new status I’ve gotten here at Michigan a little bit longer.  Just a wild conspiracy thought to ponder because ‘why not’?