Lucky Luciano

first: the endzone is a completely different entity from the rest of the field. IF a receiver catches the ball and tucks it in he has possession of the ball and THAT is a football move. when a knee hits the turf in the endzone that is the end of the play as long as he has possession at the point in time his knee is down. otherwise the results are at opposites between a pass reception or a running play. it can't be both ways and if it IS then it is just as i said... the rules are slanted to give the refs the leeway to call the play any way they want to and the call will always be correct. isn't this exactly what i have been saying? if he makes a football move after the catch and falls or is tackled and his knee was down prior to the ball coming out it is a completed pass. if that completed pass is in the endzone the play is OVER and it's a touchdown. it's no different than the megatron call against the lions. i don't care what anybody says, that was a touchdown and we should have lost that game. if that play would have been called a touchdown there is nobody on the planet would have thought twice about it being the correct call. thus they can go to the extreme edge of the rule and call the play any way it suits them and still be correct. again as i said before and you seem to agree by your statement, the refs are in a position to effect the results in a game because the rules are so poorly built for interpretation. ok, again you are stating that the rule you are refering to is a complete judgement call because the rules are so vague. what exactly does it say in your rule book for the amount of time that constitutes a "delay"? i'm sorry, but if he pulls the ball in and has control and both feet are down it is a catch. exactly correct. so why is it NOT a touchdown when a receiver who has possession of the ball with both feet on the ground in the endzone? the running play as stated is a TD as long as he has possession and the ball is in the endzone. he doesn't even HAVE to have any feet on the ground. well then you need to go into great detail about what these 3 requirement are and how they are used to determine a hold. because what i am seeing on game day is certainly not any yardstick to determine one hold from another other than complete blatant infractions. i have seen many questionable calls on our TE's and tackles that another player got away with even worse hold and never got a flag. let me ask you, when an OT has his arm hooked around the neck of a defender taking an outside rush is that not impeding his ability to move or pursue? how many times over the years has peppers been nearly raped in pursuit of the qb with no call? how many plays have you seen a guard grabbing the inside of a defenders jersey and pivoting him out of the hole or holding him while the defender tries to move laterally to pursue the ball? i could sit down if i had game tapes and go over nearly every single down and find at least one hold that is going on that could (should) be called so if it is not a judgement call or badly written rules or both then how can you explain it? ever heard of a rookie getting flagged for calls a darling veteran gets away with every play? did you watch any of those bad calls on jeffries last season for holding or pushing off? or maybe how cutler can get decapitated with no flag but the darling tom brady or brett favre gets jostled by the wind and a flag comes out? so do the officials just interpret the rules differently for each player or team? jeezus did you watch the lions game? cutler should have had at least 2-3 major roughing the passer calls from those thugs farley and suh. yes i do say there are hundreds of bad calls or non-calls and all of these equal the same in the flow of the game. a bad holding call is a drive stopper along with just about any of these bad calls. just for the record i have been watching professional football probably longer than you have been alive. so yea, i do understand the game of football at least a little (by the way, i have figured it out that every play isn't reviewed. it took me decades to do it but i finally got it.) as far as offical grading... it is basically a joke. exactly how many NFL officials have been fired over the last 40 years? give me a link. who is doing the grading of these guys? is it the people who MAKE these crap rules or are they graded by OTHER officials or former officials or is it all three? or could it possibly be that as i STATED the rules are so poorly written and can be interpreted any way an official wants to interpret it and still be RIGHT? hmmmmmm, one has to wonder.

you mean when football was a sport and not an exhibition? then riddle me this... what is the definition of a catch in the open field? control of the ball and making a football move? if the receiver drops the ball after that move whether by being hit by a player or simply lets the ball fall to the ground is that not considered a fumble? if after making that football move a receiver is tackled and fumbles the ball AFTER his knee is down who gets possession of the ball if the defense recovers? OR, if he caught the pass on his own 10 yard line and runs it 89 yards and is tackled and the ball comes out after his knee is down, is that an incomplete pass? on a running play... if the ball crosses the goal line but the runner's knee was down prior to that is that a touchdown? if a runner breaks the plane of the goal line with the ball and fumbles it before he is down or the play is over is that a touchdown? i think i can strongly disagree with that. if you do not believe this is true you are wrong and here is why... WHO is making the judgement calls if not the refs? there are not just a few bad calls a season but hundreds of them. is not every play determined in some form by an official even one in the replay booth? are these rules so complicated and general that they can be interpreted both ways and still be right? i believe they are. example: the rules for offensive holding in today's football are the biggest unknown maybe in sports history. it is nearly ALWAYS determined not by the rules, but by each individual official who 'can' in a whim (or an under the table payday) completely influence the outcome of any game OR influence the final score (gambling spread). the reason for this is that on every single play nearly EVERY offensive lineman could be called for holding because the rules have changed so much over the last 20 + years. in the previous hundred years or so no offensive lineman was able to use his hands to grab onto a defensive player or his jersey, hook him or basically shove him to the ground etc. thus you have now in existence a rule so poorly written with such poor intent that it is not possible to go by the written rule in todays NFL to make fair judgements. 2. roughing the passer -another rule to be interpreted by each individual ref. each individual referee in every game makes judgment calls causing a wide variety of his definition at the time for a penalty or non penalty call.

if they keep paea as a starting DT we are in deep $#!). this guy produces like a bad walk-on.

jeffries catches the ball, has control, his knee touches the ground. is that not the end of the play? these NFL rules are purposely made to have such a wide interpretation, or grey area, that the games are now controlled by the refs on the field as to who wins or loses... NOT the rules of the game.

can you upload the PS document keeping your clipping paths?

i don't see being able to cover the run very well is a main requirement (other than in lovies cover nobody) in a cover corner. he 'had' the speed and coverage ability to bump and run with #1 wideouts. that is what i want in a corner. someone who can play man coverage off the LOS. he has no injuries i know of and would be worth the gamble as a stop gap corner for the price he will garner this season. quite frankly peanut never had that speed (his sole purpose when drafted was to cover the large receivers like moss and the big guy from the packers) and it is very clear that this season with the age, groin and knee injury it's not getting any better. to compensate for that a move to safety would immensely improve his game. he is smart, has a lot of experience and is somewhat a team captain for the DB's. i see NO problem for him to become a safety. in fact i believe that was his original position in college so it's not like he couldn't figure it out. we 'should' improve at the cb position. i can't really think of anyone on the bench that could come close to his talent even if he is a shadow of his former self. with peanut at safety no matter how poor he might play there is no way in hell he is worse than either of our starters. as a roaming free safety he should enforce our last stop defense on the field with great tackling and the ability to double up a weaker cb. to me it's win/win

the niners cut asomugha or will soon. he is 32 years old but still could possibly contribute to our defense. put him in at CB and move peanut to FS. he has to have better speed than an injured peanut and we could move peanut to free safety where his lack of speed would not be as critical. if i was emery i would take a long look at this guy.

i can assure you i am not trivializing concussions in the least. but it is the reality of professional football and the players accept that risk for large amounts of money. in fact i read that peyton manning himself purposely had a low score on the concussion test just so it would not effect his playing time because of it in the future. what does that say to you? how many has he had? is it a risk? yes for every player. but it is their choice to take this risk unless we flat out ban the game because of health and safety concerns. if they did that i could live with it. could you? next... you mention how many concussions cutler has had is "alarming". exactly how many has he had and how serious were they? how does it compare to the rest of the league for players in every position?

i never had any problem with what you said. at this point in time i don't agree or disagree IF this franchise gives cutler his walking papers what path to follow. first... what exactly is trestmans "system"? i can say that at this point in time i don't know. he has no body of work as the man calling the shots in the NFL and has only played out 7 regular season games in chicago. all this with an offense that is comprised of a group of players who mostly have never played together. thus his "system" may look entirely different after this season. in fact his "system" may never even work. second... i very much disagree that a system like trestmans (a version of the *west coast offense?) doesn't require a good + quarterback or better. yes even an elite qb to run it the way it is supposed to be run to have superbowl caliber success. do not believe anyone that says otherwise. the proof of my statement is well documented starting in the early 90's in a bill walsh's system run by the 49ers after his departure. the quality of that system was emphasized by joe montana (an elite qb) and continued to the late 90's with steve young (another elite qb). after young's retirement they went with lesser quality qb's and basically faded into mediocraty. * some are saying the system we are running is a version of the west coast offense. i am not some blinded cutler fan that even remotely believes he is of the same quality as a peyton manning or tom brady or joe montana. the chicago bear franchise made absolutely sure of that after taking a quarterback with all the tools and all the potential to be in that category and running his career into the turf (literally) for FOUR YEARS with horrible management and even worse coaching. what i do believe is that despite what was done to him he is still a GOOD+ quarterback with that ugly word 'potential' to become EXCELLENT if trestman is half of what he is touted to be. that is why to me it is imperative this franchise moves forward with him until there is a time when we can actually draft a qb in the lower rounds that we can be assured of is at least of that quality by grooming him over a period of years and then make the decision of which way we want to go. right now it can't happen unless we go all in for this seasons draft and move up into the top 10 and draft a high potential prospect. we CAN'T afford to do this at this time because we have so many serious holes to fill on defense and even a few on offense because of poor past management drafts. we are locked in. that is the ugly truth.

other injuries not pertinent? don't you even read your own posts?? now let's get to the rest of it.... do you even have a clue as to what you are talking about? it is not even serious enough to require SURGERY!!!!! will it take time to heal? YES!! will he be 100% this season? NO!! does that mean his career is done? NO!!! he makes a living throwing the football, NOT running. he is not bobby douglas, he is not mike vick, he is not randal cuningham. he is a passing qb who can scramble well, period. per the chicago tribune... "An MRI exam revealed Cutler has a torn groin muscle. Briggs, the anchor of the defense, has a small fracture in his shoulder, the team said. Regarding Cutler, Trestman said, "I'm only confident by what they've told me. This is a minimum of four weeks. Then he'll be evaluated week to week. ... Four weeks is a reasonable start. And then it'll be week to week. I'm encouraged by the prognosis." i guess you know more than the rest of the world. you mentioned the history of players with this injury has proven difficult to rebound from... name me some players in the NFL whose careers ended because of a groin injury. name some whose careers were never the same afterwards. name a single qb whose game was never the same after a groin injury. don't have any? do you realize peanut has had a groin injury almost all season? i guess he is done too? or is that just quarterbacks? what the hell are you talking about? so what is your point? nearly every nfl player suffers concussions in their careers. is it somehow different with cutler? joe montana - suffered many concussions one memorable concussion required hospitalization in 1987 New York Times: "Joe Montana, the San Francisco 49ers' quarterback who was knocked unconscious in the 49ers' 49-3 loss to the Giants today, was kept overnight for observation at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan." yea it was cutlers "need" to run. it certainly couldn't have been anything to do with our offensive line...hahahaha what ever credibility YOU thought you might have had just went down the crapper. i'm done with you.

ok i 'think' i get what you were asking before. it was such a poorly written question (."What say you IF McCown has as much if not better success for the time he fills in?") using a quote from me that was to another members post about KIRK COUSINS. i assumed you were talking about "plugging" in mccown and support mccown as our starter if he does well. ok, my mistake. so much for the "fluff" huh? now i will answer the other side of that question... no, it does NOT mean that any ham & egger quarterback can come into this system and perform as well or better than a high quality player no matter how well mccown plays (even with the gannon effect there is no time for mccown to have a career long enough to work in chicago). there is no system i know of or have ever heard of that can do that. if it were so then every team would do it and forget about paying out the big bucks to the brady's, manning's and brees quality qb's. that is why 'potentially' elite qb's 'usually' go in the top ten of the draft.

well, here are some qb's that did pretty well with an injury history: tom brady - nagging shoulder injuries throughout his career.season ending mcl / acl knee injury 2008, shoulder finger rib injuries in 2009, shoulder foot injuries 2010, knee injury 2013 (he is now 36 years old), peyton manning - season ending SERIOUS neck injury - knee injuries, gluteal (what ever that is) joe montana - neck surgery 1986, sciatic nerve problems from back injury, there were only 3 seasons montana played all games in a season due to injuries. i could go on and on with this but the fact remains nearly all good qb's suffer from injuries and play on to have excellent careers. concussions are a serious concern but nearly every player in college and the NFL has suffered concussions or is at risk every single play. nearly all the stats for concussions in the 20th century were never even reported. a qb is at far less risk than a running back, wide receiver or tight end. where is the concern for resigning marshall or jeffries? again, if you do some research nearly every player in the nfl including qb's has a shopping list of injuries. again i will say a qb SHOULDN'T take the same kind of abuse a running back or wide receiver takes and without the moronic clowns we had as a gm and coaching staff here anymore it looks a lot brighter for any qb in our system to avoid injuries. degraded from what? you can't SERIOUSLY consider the previous years in chicago as any litmus test to judge his talent. i emphatically state... tom brady, peyton manning and any qb you can THINK of would have looked bad or been on IR continuously in the criminally negligent system we ran in chicago under lovie smith!!!! you don't agree with the progression of this year. hmmm.... the line we are sporting is not stellar but it certainly is a giant improvement over our past years cutler was in chicago. that said, where are they rated in the NFL at this time as a unit? individually? does that mean long is a bust? how about mills? etc. etc. etc. cutler is yet AGAIN learning a completely new system under a new head coach and OC. he has played in SEVEN games under this new system and you don't think he was progressing fast enough? what are his ratings compared to the rest of the NFL? these stellar qb's everyone brings up in the media have had years working their coaching staffs and usually very good offensive lines that have worked together for YEARS. there is only ONE player on our line that was here from last season. finally... cutler is cutler. you are going to get the INT's along with the stellar qb play, that is just the way it is. all-in-all he is a GOOD+ qb that has the potential to be EXCELLENT with good players around him and competent coaches. note: JERRY ANGELO had to know this when he brought cutler to chicago and gave up TWO first round draft picks to get him!! yet the gm and coaching staff did absolutely nothing to protect him, give him weapons or give him any chance to succeed in chicago. it was a freaking joke and lovie smith and jerry angelo share the blame and shame. EDIT: i have to comment on your honda accord statement. what exactly do you consider an upper tier qb? when cutler left denver he WAS an upper tier qb in his PRIME who had an excellent arm, very good accuracy and was able to scramble with the best of them and was selected to a PRO_BOWL. in my book that's a ferrari and you can put your honda analogy out there but it is WRONG. we did NOTHING to improve this qb through coaching. we did NOTHING to protect this qb from injury or damage. we did NOTHING to supply him with weapons to be successful. we just kept drafting defense and garbage to keep lovie and angie's jobs secure at the expense of a qb who potentially could have been the best in chicago maybe EVER.

josh mccown is a good backup qb in this system and that is all. you do not want to base your franchise on this qb. here is why... 1. he will be 35 years old next july. that gives him at the very best 1-2 years of top performance left in his career. if you want to build a system around him it's too late. 2. he just is not a good starting quarterback. prior to the last game as a bear in which his qb rating was 119.6 (for one game) the highest qb rating he has ever had was 74.9 in arizona in 2005 starting 6 games. that was under dennis green as a coach. although green is a joke, he was a pretty good developer of qb's and offenses. the following year he was released by the cards. that says a lot when a qb in his prime is cut and ends up in detroit the following year as a backup. sure anything can happen but realistically mccown is fools gold that hit on one game and now everyone wants to pencil him in as a possible replacement starting qb in chicago. he is doing what he does best... backing up a real starter.

one last item... if you don't think getting rid of a GOOD+ quarterback and going in a different direction at this point for a complete unknown then i suggest you never partake in the games of chance. that is rolling the dice in a big way that effects this franchise for another 3-5 years for no reason at all.

i'm sorry but if you are looking at the injury aspect of cutler you don't know what you are talking about. these injuries can happen to ANY quarterback at any time and any age. we are not talking about a recurring shoulder injury or back problems that will not get better or contribute to the end of a qb's career. if you really want to look at just how tough cutler really is then look at the time he has been in chicago up to this year. there is not many if any qb's in the nfl that could have taken that kind of punishment for that long. to say he only had the problems he has had is to me amazing. so please... stop yourself if you are suggesting his injury history is any problem. as far as his record? look at the previous imbeciles that ran this team including the mighty angelo who in essence bought a ferarri in cutler and used him to pull hay wagons. it all leads to the perfect recipe for failure of any qb including the likes of brady or manning/s.

if we can't get a cap friendly contract structured with cutler then i agree you franchise him. if trestman can't judge the talent level of cutler by now he isn't even close to the qb guru we have hoped he was. what ever happens we do NOT need to draft a qb high this year unless it is as sure a thing as you can get in the top 10 of the draft and trestman wants to dump cutler anyway. otherwise we are shooting at the moon yet again with a low 1st rd pick or later. it is just way too risky while the rest of the team is defunct of talent. with cutler in the fold, even for one year, it gives us breathing room to either get a long term contract worked out or dump him with at least some time to look for the replacement.

that sounds like i am saying exactly what? i would tell you if i could figure out what you are talking about. i will contact a cryptographer and get back with you on it. you don't seem to understand the concept of a "quote" when replying on this message board. my post WAS NOT replying to your specific post otherwise it would have had your name and the text body of your quote in a box. in fact i had no problem with your stating that if cutler WAS GONE going after an option like cousins. i am not saying he is even close to what i would do as i know nearly nothing of his NFL skills but hey it's your opinion. what i do have a problem with is anyone who thinks cutler has no value to this franchise and we could plug any qb into this system (which is a system we know hardly ANYTHING about at this time) and never miss a beat. that is complete bullshit and any chicago fan after watching the dregs of the nfl walk across the chalk for nearly THIRTY YEARS and give us the performances we have watched at QB and believes this is true is completely delusional. wipe the hammer when done? with you? LOL

did i SAY you said that??? it was a freaking COMMENT on those that have stated that or implied that trestman can somehow make chicken salad out of any pile of chickenshit in the yard!!!!! maybe it's YOU who can't seem to comprehend what you are reading!!! next time DUCK when the hammer comes down!!

let me get this straight.... we are talking about not signing a pro-bowl qb in cutler who has years left on his career to do what? i have heard talk on here of drafting a QB for his replacement in the 3rd round? is that right? so it appears that mark trestman is not just a good qb coach but can actually perform heavenly miracles? hmmm.... how many years will that project take before we know if this 3rd round pick can really play the position? 3 years or more? and then what? draft another one and get onboard the qb merry-go-round or is it by that time trestman gets fired after 4-5 years of failure and we can start all over again? or how about this 4th round draft pick in kirk cousins to replace cutler? lets see, what is his nfl accomplishments? 2012 season game 14: skins vs ravens - limited play - 2 for 2 - 26 yds - 1 td game 15: skins vs browns - started - 26 and 37 for 329 yds - 2 td and 1 int yea, lets get rid of cutler and bet the franchise on a qb with one start in the nfl against the freaking cleveland browns.

i agree. it is good news even if it goes the full 6.

this season is toast. i wouldn't give up ANY draft picks for anyone unless it is a player in his prime with an up future and not a QB. we will need them for next season.

muscle tear in groin per the score

i agree. we resign him to a good contract, not an elite contract. he is a good enough qb to win a superbowl and still has about 5 years of solid play, age wise, in the NFL. we DON'T need to start the qb merry-go-round again with or without a high draft pick considering the quality of players on this team and depth. and injury prone? he is a qb. so what if he has had a knee injury. so what if he has had a groin injury. he is not a running back or a wide receiver. if you were talking about rotator cuff or other shoulder injuries then it may have had some merit but those are nothing injuries that will not effect a qb's game in the long run. i just can't believe anyone would want to flush cutler after only 6 games in a completely new system. i do say draft a qb in the lower rounds. i have wanted the bears to do this for years even if they have a real starting qb in the fold. to me here is how we draft next season and a qb isn't even close in the first 3 rounds. round 1: cornerback - if there is a shutdown cover corner you take him. we have needed one of these for decades. it improves our defense on every level. this is how you beat teams like the pats and packers - shut down their main passing attack and play aggressive in-your-face defense. not the read and react 10 + yard cushion bull shit we have played since lovie arrived. peanut is on his last leg (literally) as a cb. if they really wanted to extend his career he goes to free safety. if we draft CB in the first we move him and gain a ton in both positions. win/win round 2: defensive tackle round 3: safety, offensive guard, or center. the best bang for your buck round 4: center, guard, or tackle round 5: linebacker

guys, we need patience. this season is going to be a rollercoaster ride with lots of ups and downs. this is a complete revamp of our team and especially the offense. we have all new coaches and all new systems. we are starting 2 rookies on our offensive line. cutler is starting out with a whole new system and that in itself is a challenge (not to mention culter is going to throw int's, it's the way he is). he will also bring you the chance to win every game with stellar play. there are going to be many miscommunications and players unsure what there assignments are throughout this season. we have many problems on defense and everyone here can personally thank jerry angelo and lovie smith for the complete lack of any drafted talent on both sides of the ball. it is going to take 2 more drafts just to get this team with quality players. this year is going to be a shakedown season. don't think superbowl, just think improvement over the long haul with a solid team that can take us to the promised land in the near future.

1987 washington redskins superbowl winner jay shroeder starting qb for all but 6 games during the regular season doug williams backup qb - played in 5 games that season and started 2 prior to the playoffs. was starting qb in superbowl XXII. skins won the superbowl that year with williams as the starter. i believe willams was the MVP of superbowl XXII.