Yet another Caleb Williams Red Flag

[AZ54]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

The NFL is a business. If you get injured, they spit you out. If they like someone else, they trade you or cut you. You're a piece of meat to them. That's why there is a collective bargaining agreement, and a union. That's why there are agents.

Does anyone think teams go easy on agents? or that agents go easy on teams? Of course not. These teams are multi billion dollar businesses and everyone is competing for money and wins.

If Caleb thinks he's special, and his price tag shows he's special, then great. No one is making anyone draft him, but they want to, so he should get as much as he can, just as teams should give as little as they can.

And is Caleb special? Yes it seems that he is. It's OK for him to know it, and to reach for the stars.

So Calebs father met with agents to see if they could find a way to get him more highly paid than the slotted salary. They told him there was no way to do that. OK. Same with team ownership. When you have the hot hand in sports or Hollywood, you play it, because tomorrow you can be cast aside. I dont blame them for asking.

I havent heard anything from Caleb about sitting out. I heard Calebs father complain about how the draft order allocates the best players to the worst teams. He said that before we fired Getsy. He said that before we had Keenan Allen. He probably said that before he realized that Chicago had the first pick by trade and not having a 3 win season.

I think those videos are cherry picked, and deceptively edited out of context and time.

I do sense a kind of nervousness or arrogance in Caleb. It's a lot to put on a young man's shoulders. I can feel that

But the dress wearing, the nail painting all that - it's silliness. The guy can play at a really high level or he can't. Surely Williams isn't leaving room for a beloved backup's career if it all goes poorly. He's not going to win the most humble guy in the league award. But so what? He's got no backup plan but greatness. He says he wants to be "immortal" in NFL history. Shouldnt we WANT that?

Jordan was like this too. So was Brady, and even Sweetness. Deion Sanders, Dennis Rodman, Joe Namath, Jim McMahon, Kobe Bryant, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Ray Lewis - and there are more examples of brash overcompetitive legends.

I agree that if WIlliams doesnt grow into an NFL monster within a few years, this will all age very poorly on him. It's a risk. But it's also evidence of him being highly internally motivated. He is the opposite of Jay Cutler. He is in it to kick EVERYONES ass. He cares! He cried when he couldnt win without a team around him.

I like it, and if he can back it up, then I LOVE it.

Dont you all remember the arrogance of the 85 defense? They released a song called Superbowl shuffle in week 11!

It's just been so long. Dont be afraid of greatness! Dont be afraid of having a player who IS special. And if he makes waves and pulls overly conservative coaches kicking and screaming into superbowl wins, then he's the guy we've been waiting for.

I thought that identity would come with a new head coach like Harbaugh. But it can be the QB. He can lead from that position too.

Other than his pocket presence I don't even see the greatness on the field.   If he were all that then yeah, but he isn't.  

[Mongo3451]

33 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Other than his pocket presence I don't even see the greatness on the field.   If he were all that then yeah, but he isn't.  

Do you see greatness in any of the prospects?  I see glimpses from all of them.

[BearFan PHX]

46 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Agents, which he doesn’t have.

And speaking of, was going to comment on the physical thing. Within the ~450 pages of the CBA there is probably something that outlines the requirement of members having a baseline physical to ascertain any potential pre-existing conditions.  Like with most unions and/or benefits associated, there is a requirement for life insurance to have that let alone all the other ‘benefits’ these guys would be afforded .   
 

Looking at the 2020 CBA (for example) article 39 and 40 address medical care and providers (to include the clause that all players will submit to a pre-season physical - Art 39.8).  Article 41 even addresses workman’s comp.  So I would think it behooves both parties to participate in these tests.

And Johnny Manziel and Brian Bosworth. 

so a few thing.

1) Caleb doesnt have an agent because after interviewing agents, they all told him there was nothing they could do to better his deal since it was slotted. Why give a % away to an agent now? You can get one before your next contract negotiation.

2) I think you, and Caleb have found a loophole in the agreement. I totally agree that you should have to take the physical, unless there is some law that deems it must be voluntary, I would expect the NFL to close that loophole fast, and I would applaud that move too.

If there was a rule currently, some reporter would have said it, and Caleb would have been forced to do it by the teams. But i agree with you on this one about how it ought to be.

3) Having arrogant confidence does not guarantee success. It is a trait shared by GOATs and busts. No doubt. I'm just saying if Caleb is who he says he is going to be, then this is all about his own belief, which is very powerful in getting him there. But by no means am I saying it proves he will become that. Only time can see that, I fully agree.

But I like his competitive spirit - it's why I wanted Harbaugh, so I have no problem with it. But of course it is all predicated on becoming a monster within a couple (or a few) years. If he doesnt, then he's a whiny loser, and no one will give him a second chance. So he is betting big on himself. And Im here for it. I hope he is that guy. I really do.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Yeah I’m having a hard time buying into his antics, contrived or no.  There’s some underlying ‘thing’ that just doesn’t give me comfort in knowing he’d be the best for us. Never mind I’m still not believing this “generational talent”.  He’s good but not generationally better than others already playing or even some of his collegiate peers.  

I think it depends what youre measuring. As an athlete, he isn't superman. He's got amazing off platform throws and makes incredible plays, but so does Jayden Daniels and so does Justin Fields.

What makes Caleb get described as "generational" is due to a few things.

The first is his pocket presence. He moves around in the pocket in a circular way to not only avoid a rush, but actually put the offensive lineman who got beat back between him and the defender. That's why he was able to hold the ball so long when he was looking deep. That looks like Aaron Rodgers.

His release is elite. His compact arm movement is incredibly efficient. His wrist doesn't go far from his ear, and the ball is out faster than almost anyone I've ever seen. Dan Marino is the comp for this particular skill. It means the time between deciding to throw the ball, and the ball being out is impressively fast. He doesn't pat the ball, he doesn't wind up, or heave the ball. It comes out like a laser right from the shoulder.

He reads defenses. Caleb seems to fully understand the purpose of the routes. He has good pre snap reads, and gets through his progressions quickly. He is often getting the ball out in tempo to third and fourth read receivers. I think people get too caught up in physical traits, and don't value this trait enough. It's what makes Williams a much much better bet to succeed in the NFL than Jayden Daniels. Williams is already processing like an NFL quarterback. Daniels looks like Fields in this regard.

He throws every route. He and Maye have the strongest arms in the draft (except for Joe Milton). He can throw an out or speed route across the field from the opposite (wider) college hash on a rope. The ball beats defenders to small windows.

He makes magic happen when the play breaks down. He looks a lot like Fields and Daniels when the play breaks. He has all the same Mahomes-ian moves and eye opening throws, and makes first downs where others can't. Hes not quite as fast as Fields or elusive in the open field, but even the Bears made Justin stop doing that after 2022, and taught him to slide rather than put moves on defenders in the open field, and Williams is plenty fast and elusive enough to scramble for first downs.

He is a leader. He's the kind of athlete that takes a team on his back and makes things happen on a day when it wasnt going well. He played too much long ball hunting in games where he had to score 40+ points to stay in it, but in the NFL he will have a defense, and I think he will be able to dial that back. But when you need it in a big game, it's a great skill to have.

Hes got components of Marino, Rodgers, Favre and Mahomes to his game. That's why they call him generational. That's why it isn't silly to think that he will be a Hall of Famer, and a #1 draft pick.

And he hasnt had a snap in the NFL no less made his rookie mistakes yet. Hes not generational in the NFL. Hes just a generational prospect. He is as pro ready as anyone I've seen in many years. And that's why theyre saying that.

[AZ54]

32 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Do you see greatness in any of the prospects?  I see glimpses from all of them.

Each of them have some elite traits yes.  Slightly different in each one.  

[BearFan PHX]

I cant say you guys are wrong about the character questions, we each have our opinions, but you guys look at Williams' tape and you really don't see it? Not highlight (or lowlight) reels but game footage?

I'd be less surprised if someone said they didnt see the film, and were saying this - then of course, because there is so much on the web all over the place. But did you guys actually watch breakdown tape and come away thinking Williams wasnt head and shoulders above the other guys?

[Stinger226]

When Poles traded Justin, everyone assumed we're drafting Caleb. Does he have eyes on someone else and using the hype on Caleb to increase is haul in a trade?

We could trade back a couple of times and still get McCarthy.

[Stinger226]

24 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

I cant say you guys are wrong about the character questions, we each have our opinions, but you guys look at Williams' tape and you really don't see it? Not highlight (or lowlight) reels but game footage?

I'd be less surprised if someone said they didnt see the film, and were saying this - then of course, because there is so much on the web all over the place. But did you guys actually watch breakdown tape and come away thinking Williams wasnt head and shoulders above the other guys?

So how many hours of tape have you watched? I'm up to 10 hours on Caleb alone. He has special traits but  Poles is big on character. If he doesn't take him it isn't because of his tape.

[BearFan PHX]

Just now, Stinger226 said:

So how many hours of tape have you watched? I'm up to 10 hours on Caleb alone. He has special traits but  Poles is big on character. If he doesn't take him it isn't because of his tape.

like i said, I can say Im not put off by his character, but i cant say what youre talking about in that isnt real. I can make guesses about how it might play out, but they are just opinions.

But based only on the tape, he really is special, no?

[Stinger226]

1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said:

like i said, I can say Im not put off by his character, but i cant say what youre talking about in that isnt real. I can make guesses about how it might play out, but they are just opinions.

But based only on the tape, he really is special, no?

I already bought in after the Chase Daniels breakdown but I'm not in interviews or the meetings on character. Poles is the character guy  I'm more relaxed in that department.

[dawhizz]

I have no real opinion on the character stuff - I think there’s plenty of evidence out there to support whatever conclusion you are predisposed to - but I have a hard time watching something like this highlight package and not come away thinking he’s a pretty special thrower. 
 

https://x.com/dwcprodz/status/1772009417367593396?s=46&t=cLrE-3h2uw3rACxhQZYEvg

[Pixote]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

I already bought in after the Chase Daniels breakdown but I'm not in interviews or the meetings on character. Poles is the character guy  I'm more relaxed in that department.

I had heard about Caleb breaking down and crying in his mother's arms in the stadium after losing a game. But now that I saw the video posted today in this thread, it makes me puke. Could you imagine him doing a Lambeau Leap into the stands after a Bears loss and having his mommy cuddle him while he cries, in front of a stadium full of fans, shown on the big screen in the stadium, telecast for millions to see? Talk about wanting to be the face of the franchise. OMG.

He's extremely talented. But unlike many of the GOATS PHX tried to compare his brashness with, I don't ever recall any of them acting so immature after a defeat. No, it is not because he is so competitive. All GOATS are competitive. It is because he is IMMATURE!

I was totally sold on the guy, now I am totally at a loss.

(And let me add, I have no issues with a player getting emotional on the bench, or on the sidelines, after a loss. That is understandable. Going to have mommy hold you while you cry in the stands after a game is off the charts, IMO.)

[BearFan PHX]

30 minutes ago, Pixote said:

I had heard about Caleb breaking down and crying in his mother's arms in the stadium after losing a game. But now that I saw the video posted today in this thread, it makes me puke. Could you imagine him doing a Lambeau Leap into the stands after a Bears loss and having his mommy cuddle him while he cries, in front of a stadium full of fans, shown on the big screen in the stadium, telecast for millions to see? Talk about wanting to be the face of the franchise. OMG.

He's extremely talented. But unlike many of the GOATS PHX tried to compare his brashness with, I don't ever recall any of them acting so immature after a defeat. No, it is not because he is so competitive. All GOATS are competitive. It is because he is IMMATURE!

I was totally sold on the guy, now I am totally at a loss.

(And let me add, I have no issues with a player getting emotional on the bench, or on the sidelines, after a loss. That is understandable. Going to have mommy hold you while you cry in the stands after a game is off the charts, IMO.)

Payton cried that he didnt get a TD in the superbowl.

Sometimes when people care a lot, they get emotional when they are physically exhausted and come up short having given it all on the field?

[Pixote]

1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said:

Payton cried that he didnt get a TD in the superbowl.

Sometimes when people care a lot, they get emotional when they are physically exhausted and come up short having given it all on the field?

He didn't cry in his mommy's lap!

Yes, players get emotional. But to go into the stands surrounded by fans, sit in your mother's lap, and cry is beyond anything I have ever seen. (I remember seeing something like that when I worked with prepubescent boys playing little league baseball.)

[BearFan PHX]

Here's a few crying heroes from that list (crying in sports not in life):

Mike Tyson
https://www.sportscasting.com/why-mike-tyson-cried-before-every-fight-of-his-illustrious-career/

Deion Sanders

TOm Brady crying about where he was drafted

Walter Payton cried when he wasnt drafted higher
https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/31/opinion/pearlman-walter-payton/index.html

Im sure there are more examples too, but a quick google made the point i think?

[Pixote]

1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said:

Here's a few crying heroes from that list (crying in sports not in life):

Mike Tyson
https://www.sportscasting.com/why-mike-tyson-cried-before-every-fight-of-his-illustrious-career/

Deion Sanders

TOm Brady crying about where he was drafted

Walter Payton cried when he wasnt drafted higher
https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/31/opinion/pearlman-walter-payton/index.html

Im sure there are more examples too, but a quick google made the point i think?

Any being cuddled by mommy?

[BearFan PHX]

Just now, Pixote said:

Any being cuddled by mommy?

well Brady cried when he saw his dad at the Superbowl?

Maybe now that the tables have turned you can see that I wasn't saying Poles was a pussy for hugging Fields, but just getting too close to be impartial. I love coaches hugging players.

I think this is nonsense. The guy has a heart and he cares.

He's gonna come here and kick ass like no Bears QB ever, and then we can see if he is tough or a baby. I dont think you're gonna question his toughness after you see him play in blue and orange.

[Pixote]

2 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Maybe now that the tables have turned you can see that I wasn't saying Poles was a pussy for hugging Fields, but just getting too close to be impartial. I love coaches hugging players.

What the hell has that have to do with this? NOTHING!

Players get emotional. I even acknowledged that immediately after my original post on the subject, but I'm not sure you saw the edit before replying.

No issue with a player on the sideline showing emotion.

Big issue with a player going up into the stands to sit in his mother's lap to cry like a f**king baby.

Sorry, but he needs to grow up!

 

[BearFan PHX]

27 minutes ago, Pixote said:

What the hell has that have to do with this? NOTHING!

Players get emotional. I even acknowledged that immediately after my original post on the subject, but I'm not sure you saw the edit before replying.

No issue with a player on the sideline showing emotion.

Big issue with a player going up into the stands to sit in his mother's lap to cry like a f**king baby.

Sorry, but he needs to grow up!

 

well at the time, I think people misread me and thought I was acting like I'm such a tough alpha that I looked down on men hugging each other.

And here now you're calling out a kid's toughness who has undoubtedly worked harder and given more to his craft than any of us could imagine.

I just think it's stupid. It's playground bully logic (not saying you are one!) and if he was exhausted and crushed that he couldn't make his dream real no matter how hard he played - the guy put up 42 points and still couldnt win.

I want someone who cares that much. And I dont think he is soft at all. I think he is a champion in the making.

He isnt soft and entitled - he just wants it SO bad.

Mike Ditka broke his hand once punching a hole through a chalkboard because he was angry his offensive line wouldnt open a hole there in that play.

We are so freakin lucky to have this guy, and all we can do is complain. I dont think it's Caleb that's entitled.

[AZ54]

3 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

I cant say you guys are wrong about the character questions, we each have our opinions, but you guys look at Williams' tape and you really don't see it? Not highlight (or lowlight) reels but game footage?

I'd be less surprised if someone said they didnt see the film, and were saying this - then of course, because there is so much on the web all over the place. But did you guys actually watch breakdown tape and come away thinking Williams wasnt head and shoulders above the other guys?

I see a compilation of really good along with stuff that looks like Justin searching for the big play and ignoring the easy one.  On some of those easy plays I think you recognize that he is going through all his reads.    Can he play on time and in rhythm?   Yes.  
 

I have other concerns about how he throws when under pressure in the pocket.  Those off angle throws will lead to trouble in the NFL.  How does that bad habit translate to the NFL for a shorter QB?   

[BearFan PHX]

Justin wasn't hunting bigger plays, he was unable to see it and pull the trigger in time. Williams is a whole other animal from Fields.

Mahomes makes off angle throws too, but it's not as if Williams (or Mahomes) does that unless he has pressure. When he has a clean pocket, Williams' delivery is as clean as anyones ever. His throwing motion is impeccable.

[adam]

If feels like we are splitting hairs if we are evaluating interactions with people on the sidelines during a pro day. 

Here is 20 minutes of video of Williams playing in structure. There are some sweet passes in here. 

 

[Lucky Luciano]

15 hours ago, AZ54 said:

 

i admit that i couldn't watch any more than about 3/4 of the first video because this is the biggest load of CRAP and waste of time i have seen pre-draft in a long, long, time.

so freaking what that he paints his nails with insults to opposing teams?

who CARES if he gets in that imbecile on the field fans face? he didn't punch him at least which is seriously what i would have thought long an hard about myself.

who CARES if he is looking to squeeze every penny out of a contract he can get? wouldn't you??

who CARES what his father has said or NOT said to the press?

who CARES if he has a preference where he wants to play. they ALL do and some like elway and manning push it. poles will certainly know before draft day.

who really gives a SHITE if he gets emotional with his mother in the stands? this moron commentator is whining about that??

who CARES if he didn't  shake hands with the opponents or whatever post game? ANYBODY remember buddy ryan?

who CARES if he is leary about chicago as a place where QB's go to die? everyone on this board has said the same at one time or another.

EDIT: he didn't ignore allen for keerists sake. he shook his hand didn't he? is there some set of rules of when he should do it?

if that's the BEST crap they can throw at the wall to hope it sticks it's pretty pathetic.

whoever that hack is that narrated that video must be getting paid by washington or mayes agent.

[Stinger226]

7 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

well at the time, I think people misread me and thought I was acting like I'm such a tough alpha that I looked down on men hugging each other.

And here now you're calling out a kid's toughness who has undoubtedly worked harder and given more to his craft than any of us could imagine.

I just think it's stupid. It's playground bully logic (not saying you are one!) and if he was exhausted and crushed that he couldn't make his dream real no matter how hard he played - the guy put up 42 points and still couldnt win.

I want someone who cares that much. And I dont think he is soft at all. I think he is a champion in the making.

He isnt soft and entitled - he just wants it SO bad.

Mike Ditka broke his hand once punching a hole through a chalkboard because he was angry his offensive line wouldnt open a hole there in that play.

We are so freakin lucky to have this guy, and all we can do is complain. I dont think it's Caleb that's entitled.

You're calling out people about complaining?

Caleb hasn't taken a snap in the league yet and we're supposed to feel lucky to have him? I think  I'll let him p!ay some games  first before I vote him MVP.

[Pixote]

7 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

We are so freakin lucky to have this guy, and all we can do is complain. I dont think it's Caleb that's entitled.

First, we don't have the guy. I think we will. He is a great-looking prospect, but the card hasn't been turned into the commissioner yet.

Second point: I would love to have him as our QB if, after due diligence, Poles decides he is our guy. The next visit to Halas Hall will be extremely important in that regard. It's about time we got a QB who will lead us to multiple Super Bowls.

Now, your closing statement. Who, then, do you think is entitled? The definition of entitled:

Quote

Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
"kids who feel so entitled and think the world will revolve around them"

It sounds like a lot of egocentric GOATS from all sports, including Caleb (although he has yet to prove he is a GOAT). I have no issue with him having a big ego, as long as he realizes he will need to earn the respect of his teammates and fans. There is no entitlement.

The bottom line: I do not want to see late-night talk hosts (Kimmel, Colbert, etc.), SNL, and the media spoof Caleb because after losing a game against the Packers, he sought comfort from his mother in the stands.

I don't want opposing teams making a fortune off of souvenirs sold when we visit them, such as Caleb's diapers and pacifiers.

I want him to be not only become our franchise quarterback but also a mature young man who will represent our beloved Bears on and off the field with dignity and respect.

That is what I expect, and feel, as a lifelong fan, I am entitled to.