Yet another Caleb Williams Red Flag

[ParkerBear7]

I agree Pix and certainly don’t have the time to research any of these prospects more than the Bears experts do.  If they feel CW is the long term answer, fine.  But if they do the reverse of what Ryan Pace did with Mitch, move down a few spots, grab MHJr as well as a QB like Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy then I‘m good with that also.  I think we all agree we have not had a GM as bright as Poles probably since the GM that built the ‘85 roster! Its truly an exciting time for this franchise and fans.

[jason]

The ferocious debate on this kills me. There are people from every level - former GMs and personnel people all the way down to garden variety fans - who have differing opinions on Williams. 

Highly respected people thought Fields was a can’t miss prospect. Well, his detractors now say that was a mistake while simultaneously believing in the same “experts” who are already putting Williams in the HOF. The fact is, however, that ANY AND EVERY college QB transitioning to the NFL is an unknown.

Meanwhile, Fields supporters aren’t going off of unknowns. We have seen his glimpses. The arm strength. The spectacular play ability. The incredible running addition. The obvious rapport and leadership with teammates. And we have also literally seen him play behind a subpar OL, with multiple train wreck coaches at varying positions, and a single WR who opponents fear. 

Given all the red flags, and complete unknown, the smart play is to go with what we know and build a team, not take another risk and keep a team full of holes.

[Mongo3451]

10 minutes ago, jason said:

Given all the red flags, and complete unknown, the smart play is to go with what we know and build a team, not take another risk and keep a team full of holes.

That's a very good argument for keeping Justin.  I salivate over what we could draft by trading the number 1.  What you call the smart play, I call the safe play.  The surest thing we know is that we will win ten games this year, with Justin. The Justin detractors have seen enough though.  It's weird, with me being a detractor, because I'll be excited if they keep him.  But, I want to move on. The more film I watch on Caleb, the more I'm down for that.  What's also crazy, it's that I wouldn't mind trading the one for the two and taking Maye.  Then again we that's the safe way.

[killakrzydav]

It was an interview of somebody…let me see if I can find it

[killakrzydav]

https://youtu.be/PyQ66KFTajA

[killakrzydav]

Embed didn’t work

[Pixote]

2 hours ago, adam said:

Also, with all the analytics nowadays, I think we will see less and less busts like that. Dudes may not turn out to be all-pros, but they won't be busts like that. 

Are these the same analytics that had Zack Wilson drafted #2 and T Lance #3, or the one that had Young chosen over Stroud? The one that had Mahomes chosen #10 with Watson going #12?

All I am saying is that NOTHING is a given, even with the advanced analytics.

There are too many intangibles. 

[killakrzydav]

 

[killakrzydav]

Might be this one. There’s another I’m looking for too

[killakrzydav]

 

 

[killakrzydav]

It’s this one and it’s god awful damning. Like turn off the WiFi shit

[killakrzydav]

It’s so bad I’m dropping that shit off and going to finish packing. Toilet Internet reading be dammed

FML

[Pixote]

6 minutes ago, killakrzydav said:

 

I do not know of Russinni. First I've heard of her. If she is correct, Warren has far more influence than I had envisioned. So my question for you guys, who probably know far more than I about the front offices of teams, Is it normal for the President & CEO of a team to wield that much influence over decisions made by his GM?

[Lucky Luciano]

6 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

That's a very good argument for keeping Justin.  I salivate over what we could draft by trading the number 1.  What you call the smart play, I call the safe play.  The surest thing we know is that we will win ten games this year, with Justin. The Justin detractors have seen enough though.  It's weird, with me being a detractor, because I'll be excited if they keep him.  But, I want to move on. The more film I watch on Caleb, the more I'm down for that.  What's also crazy, it's that I wouldn't mind trading the one for the two and taking Maye.  Then again we that's the safe way.

1. some people believe williams is too much of a risk to pick with the overall #1. he could be a bust.

2. these same people believe we should trade down and get a plethora of draft picks AND pick a lesser qb.

i just gotta ask.... what makes these picks you will accrue any different from the williams pick? according to that theory, they could ALL be busts right?

if you deem williams the best qb in this qb heavy draft why in the H E double hocky sticks would you NOT pick him and roll the dice that we will have a high end qb that will beat the good/accomplished qb's in our own division for a freaking decade?

isn't that what this is all about? being at LEAST good enough to win the division each year to get us a SHOT at a supberbowl and WINNING IT?

having a solid team that maybe makes it to the playoffs  every 5 years or more as a wildcard or even rarer win our division and has an even rarer chance to win a superbowl is just not enough.

it's some kind of glutton phobia some are having. for god's sake we have TWO top ten picks!!!

they want to trade out of the rarest of the rare situation to land that key player that moves this franchise into a yearly contender and for what? didn't the 85 bears teach these people ANYTHING?

the 85 team had all-pro/HOF players on both sides of the ball (remember this was prior the cap) yet what did they lack? a freaking QB (after mcmahon's career was stolen from him, and also a good coach i might add) to win those tight games. if we couldn't do it with that team it's insane to believe we could do it in the salary capped NFL of today!!!

[Daventry]

11 minutes ago, Lucky Luciano said:

1. some people believe williams is too much of a risk to pick with the overall #1. he could be a bust.

2. these same people believe we should trade down and get a plethora of draft picks AND pick a lesser qb.

i just gotta ask.... what makes these picks you will accrue any different from the williams pick? according to that theory, they could ALL be busts right?

if you deem williams the best qb in this qb heavy draft why in the H E double hocky sticks would you NOT pick him and roll the dice that we will have a high end qb that will beat the good/accomplished qb's in our own division for a freaking decade?

isn't that what this is all about? being at LEAST good enough to win the division each year to get us a SHOT at a supberbowl and WINNING IT?

having a solid team that maybe makes it to the playoffs  every 5 years or more as a wildcard or even rarer win our division and has an even rarer chance to win a superbowl is just not enough.

it's some kind of glutton phobia some are having. for god's sake we have TWO top ten picks!!!

they want to trade out of the rarest of the rare situation to land that key player that moves this franchise into a yearly contender and for what? didn't the 85 bears teach these people ANYTHING?

the 85 team had all-pro/HOF players on both sides of the ball (remember this was prior the cap) yet what did they lack? a freaking QB (after mcmahon's career was stolen from him, and also a good coach i might add) to win those tight games. if we couldn't do it with that team it's insane to believe we could do it in the salary capped NFL of today!!!

That’s my view basically.  Nothing is for sure in life but most people whose opinions I respect rate CW highly.  We may never have this chance again.  That being said, I trust Poles but hope the McCaskeys don’t get involved and mess things up somehow.

[Lucky Luciano]

1 minute ago, Daventry said:

That’s my view basically.  Nothing is for sure in life but most people whose opinions I respect rate CW highly.  We may never have this chance again.  That being said, I trust Poles but hope the McCaskeys don’t get involved and mess things up somehow.

agree.

think on this... what players that we could pick if we trade down are considered once in 10 YEARS + quality according to ANY experts? who are these once in a lifetime players further down in the draft? if they are that good according to any analysis why are they NOT considered the top picks in the draft?

would ANYBODY rather draft a franchise WR over a franchise QB? i can't even imagine it.

[Mongo3451]

I'm with you guys.  At some point, your QB has to elevate the talent around him.  Justin never did that.  To Jason's point, how many times did someone come up the middle unabated?  However, when you have a QB with a slow drop back and slower trigger, it's a recipe for what Justin gave us.  Williams may have the fastest drop back I've seen, with a top five all time release.  Does that translate to winning?  It doesn't hurt at all...

[BearFan PHX]

Dav, thank you.

I know Warren is involved, but I don't know if he is the final decision maker. I had heard that Warren didnt want to keep Flus and Poles did, so you can take that with a grain of salt too. Who knows?

As long as they make the right decisions, Im OK with it, although it's strange for the GM not to have final say, since it's his job on the line if he gets it wrong - but on the other hand, when you want to trade future draft picks etc you always need sign off from the owners or in this case Warren.

I doubt Warren would stick his fingers into most things, other than to simply be a rubber stamp to approve - but huge decisions like this one, he is probably more involved with?

I think of the (silly) movie draft day and how much pressure the owner had about the pick. It's fiction of course, but they interviewed a lot of NFL people to try to make it somewhat realistic about what kinds of pressure the GM feels even if the decision is theirs in the end?

[BearFan PHX]

30 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

I'm with you guys.  At some point, your QB has to elevate the talent around him.  Justin never did that.  To Jason's point, how many times did someone come up the middle unabated?  However, when you have a QB with a slow drop back and slower trigger, it's a recipe for what Justin gave us.  Williams may have the fastest drop back I've seen, with a top five all time release.  Does that translate to winning?  It doesn't hurt at all...

no doubt, if you have Mahomes or Brady and you cant give them any pocket at all, youre screwed. Football is the ultimate team sport and the weakest link makes the rest a problem.

On the other hand, if you dont have a top QB, the rest doesnt matter.

The question is "have teams built rosters without having the #1 pick to trade down for a haul?" and of course the answer is yes. But "have teams won multiple superbowls without a dominant top QB?" and the answer to that is no.

So this is the opportunity to get one, and i dont think you let it slip by. That doesnt mean we dont need OL help and WRs. It just means you dont have to pass on the QB to get them,

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Daventry said:

That’s my view basically.  Nothing is for sure in life but most people whose opinions I respect rate CW highly.  We may never have this chance again.  That being said, I trust Poles but hope the McCaskeys don’t get involved and mess things up somehow.

and this remains true after we draft Williams too - we will still need to develop him, and put weapons and protection around him.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

28 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

no doubt, if you have Mahomes or Brady and you cant give them any pocket at all, youre screwed. Football is the ultimate team sport and the weakest link makes the rest a problem.

On the other hand, if you dont have a top QB, the rest doesnt matter.

The question is "have teams built rosters without having the #1 pick to trade down for a haul?" and of course the answer is yes. But "have teams won multiple superbowls without a dominant top QB?" and the answer to that is no.

So this is the opportunity to get one, and i dont think you let it slip by. That doesnt mean we dont need OL help and WRs. It just means you dont have to pass on the QB to get them,

The debate is over.  We know what's going to happen and the biggest debacle is going to be what do we do with JF.  The Bears need to optimize the value, which might be low now.  If it doesn't increase, the Bears cannot give it away. I am not on the board that having CW and JF in the same locker room will be bad. They might not even share the locker room by the time the season starts because they will be ready to pull the trigger once they get the value they are looking for. JFs contract was fully guaranteed, so he is paid for until it ends.  There might be offset language saying the team they trade him too picks up that contract, but I have not read that.  I feel in order for Poles to trade, he wants a low 1st or high 2nd with maybe a 4th or 5th. 

[BearFan PHX]

1 minute ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

The debate is over.  We know what's going to happen and the biggest debacle is going to be what do we do with JF.  The Bears need to optimize the value, which might be low now.  If it doesn't increase, the Bears cannot give it away. I am not on the board that having CW and JF in the same locker room will be bad. They might not even share the locker room by the time the season starts because they will be ready to pull the trigger once they get the value they are looking for. JFs contract was fully guaranteed, so he is paid for until it ends.  There might be offset language saying the team they trade him too picks up that contract, but I have not read that.  I feel in order for Poles to trade, he wants a low 1st or high 2nd with maybe a 4th or 5th. 

I agree the debate is over, but not everyone does. To me what youre saying about that makes all kinds of sense.

I can say that Fields does not have offset language, so if we cut him and another team signs him we are still on hte hook for his $ - but it isn't THAT much.

But i do disagree with you about having Justin in camp with Caleb. i think that's a bad idea - but holding on to Justin until you get value might make sense, just dont have him actually in camp?

Also if we do end up trading him for a 5th or something, at least we do get that money off of our cap.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

if you deem williams the best qb in this qb heavy draft why in the H E double hocky sticks would you NOT pick him and roll the dice that we will have a high end qb that will beat the good/accomplished qb's in our own division for a freaking decade?

One name: Bryce Young.  

 

3 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

i just gotta ask.... what makes these picks you will accrue any different from the williams pick? according to that theory, they could ALL be busts right?

Seriously ask yourself this question again, what are the odds of one player busting (IE: Williams) vs 2-3 other high end players that could be gotten with trading the 1st overall?  And consider one of those could be another first round for next year?  

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

would ANYBODY rather draft a franchise WR over a franchise QB? i can't even imagine it.

If you have a QB as capable as Fields and with Moore…yes it’s realistic. DJ Moore has said it himself.  

“His growth has been phenomenal. If you look at the games where he came back off of injury, he’s been everything you could ask out of a quarterback. Puts us in a position to win, getting the ball to his playmakers and if he’s gotta do it himself he does it himself and takes it like 50, 60 yards and does his thing. That’s all you can ask, is just steady growth and that’s what he did.”

And added that he and MHJ grew up together and ran on the same track team.  He also suggested it would be “all love” if he were to join the Bears.  

But what does Moore know?  He only played with Justin and had a career year while doing so.   🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

The debate is over. 

Is it?  😉👍