Week 15 Official Game Thread - Bears at Browns, DEC 17th, 12pm, FOX, CHI +3, O/U 37

[AZ54]

6 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

I think of all the things that are uncertain, a new OC (at the least) is a certainty.

That is my vote too.  Flus has proven he has the leadership needed to hold a locker room together through the worst of times (a complete roster overhaul).  He's also proven he can get a good defense on the field, and he's doing that with a lot of contributions from rookies and 2nd year players.  

The offense has some talent but lacks attention to detail.  I don't know if it's a missed assignment by  Braxton Jones but having him head upfield to block a LB and leave the edge defender free to make a TFL on a 3rd and 1 makes no sense.  Even if we were doing a slide right he should have chipped the edge to hand him off to Wright (or whoever was next to him).   Just block the guys on the line in front of you and you get the yard.   

Whatever happened to Mooney we may never know but he plays like he's stoned.  Standing still while a pass is in the air and making no effort to come forward to catch the ball which let a DB nearly have an INT.  Fields got in his face for that one, as he should have.  Later he just whiffed on a block, never even moved to get in front of the guy and worse, he pushed the DB toward Fields enabling him to make the tackle on Fields and prevent a first down.  

[BearFan PHX]

1 minute ago, AZ54 said:

That is my vote too.  Flus has proven he has the leadership needed to hold a locker room together through the worst of times (a complete roster overhaul).  He's also proven he can get a good defense on the field, and he's doing that with a lot of contributions from rookies and 2nd year players.  

The offense has some talent but lacks attention to detail.  I don't know if it's a missed assignment by  Braxton Jones but having him head upfield to block a LB and leave the edge defender free to make a TFL on a 3rd and 1 makes no sense.  Even if we were doing a slide right he should have chipped the edge to hand him off to Wright (or whoever was next to him).   Just block the guys on the line in front of you and you get the yard.   

Whatever happened to Mooney we may never know but he plays like he's stoned.  Standing still while a pass is in the air and making no effort to come forward to catch the ball which let a DB nearly have an INT.  Fields got in his face for that one, as he should have.  Later he just whiffed on a block, never even moved to get in front of the guy and worse, he pushed the DB toward Fields enabling him to make the tackle on Fields and prevent a first down.  

Oh Im for cutting the whole coaching staff loose, I just meant even if they do something i really disagree with, one thing you KNOW is Getsy is gone. But no, I want Eberflus gone too.

[adam]

4 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Oh Im for cutting the whole coaching staff loose, I just meant even if they do something i really disagree with, one thing you KNOW is Getsy is gone. But no, I want Eberflus gone too.

I feel like Flus is getting too much credit for this defensive turn around. They brought in Snow as an Advisor, got a ton of players back from injury and traded from Sweat. The takeaways are the players (see Stevenson's pick) moreso than Flus calling an amazing game. Also if you want to give him credit for the great defense because of the turnovers, then he needs to take the blame for the historical 4th quarter defensive meltdowns. So the bad negates the good and you end up with zero lol. Then when you add his terrible HC job, it's easy to see what needs to happen.

[adam]

This is not an excuse but the refs did the Bears no favors in this game. On the 4th down screen, JJ was clearly held, no call. Then on Njoku TD, his heel is on the white. Fields first INT at the end of the 2nd quarter hit the ground. Fields also got hit late on that throw and didn't get the call again. He has not had a single flag called on a hit on him this year.

[BearFan PHX]

2 hours ago, adam said:

I feel like Flus is getting too much credit for this defensive turn around. They brought in Snow as an Advisor, got a ton of players back from injury and traded from Sweat. The takeaways are the players (see Stevenson's pick) moreso than Flus calling an amazing game. Also if you want to give him credit for the great defense because of the turnovers, then he needs to take the blame for the historical 4th quarter defensive meltdowns. So the bad negates the good and you end up with zero lol. Then when you add his terrible HC job, it's easy to see what needs to happen.

This is how I see it too. Flus isnt out scheming anyone on defense, the players are just playing very well.

[Stinger226]

My first reaction to yesterday was to burn everything down but after listening to tons of people evaluate the game, I have settled down. We played the #1 defense in the league and it's not even close. We dominated the game for 3 quarters and then a handful of plays shut us down. Had Tonyan not dropped an easy catch, had the refs called the Brown's end line TD properly, no TD ( his second foot was half out of bounds). Even after several bad plays, we could have won with the last play of the game. 

We are a team in the second year of a 3-4 year  conplete rebuild but for some reason the Bears are expected to win. Most people said the most important factor in this season is to see if Fields is the LT answer at QB  and for us to keep getting better. Everyone predicted 5-8 wins except my optimism of 9-10 wins. We are right on track with he expectations, we are getting better and know the answer on Justin. I don't think  new regimes are brought in and have to be successful in the first 2 years when they told you it will take 4 but everyone is going nutzo because we aren't instantly a winner. 

Not sure that's a fair assessment. We are better, 6-8 wins probably, and see some players getting better. I think everybody knows we need an upgrade at QB if Poles thinks there's one out there. Fields isn't terrible, he has some good traits but because he's not the next Andrew Luck , we should throw him away. Poles will get another QB but not sure he will also just throw Justin away when he doesn't have to make that decision yet. 

Poles needs to start winning, next year. What gives him the best chance to do that. I'm not sure it's a rookie QB but, it's his job on the line , not mine. Is it a new coach, not sure he is ready to burn it down in year 2. Definitely see Gretsy leaving but not sure Flus will be gone. If everyone wants to blame Flus for his bad, we also need to give him credit for his good. He has a part of the defense being better whether people want to admit it or not.

I think we are right on track with Poles schedule of when we are good again. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

I think we are right on track with Poles schedule of when we are good again. 

I laugh to myself when I come to read our collective reactions here and other places that Bears fans reside.  Last week we were all elated, talking about making the playoff, maybe Eberflus isn’t such a bad coach and maybe Justin is figuring it out.  Then after we lose like we did yesterday, it’s back to the drawing board (aka ‘burn it all down’) draft a QB with the first pick and flush half the players and coaches.

I admit my frustration gets the best of me too and hesitate on reactive response because had I done this 24 hours ago it would’ve been a whole different response. At any rate, if you consider some of the things you mentioned; Tonyans flub, Mooney’s play (or lack thereof), Flus’ questionable call about not going for a FG at the end of the half and a few other things were really not as bad as we feel we are.  As you said, this was against the #1 ranked defense (at home) and despite some key flubs by some of our offensive players, we had them on the ropes. We just couldn’t close out. Three times it’s happened this year and oddly all for different reasons. 

[Mongo3451]

22 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

We just couldn’t close out. Three times it’s happened this year and oddly all for different reasons. 

The recurring themes in those three losses is Justin not being able to put a drive together to put the game away and some sort of questionable coaching.  We never should have thrown a hail Mary.  It should have been a sprint pass to either of the receivers that had massive cushions.(as illustrated elsewhere)  Get the yards and kick the field goal if you are not trying to lose.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

8 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

The recurring themes in those three losses is Justin not being able to put a drive together to put the game away and some sort of questionable coaching.

I would agree to some of this.  There's no question that the coaching came into question in all three but Justin not being able to put it away...not so much.  

[adam]

8 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I would agree to some of this.  There's no question that the coaching came into question in all three but Justin not being able to put it away...not so much.  

The answer can be all of the above, but at some point, the elite players overcome all the obstacles.

It just seems like Fields falls flat when the team needs him the most. On the 4th and 1 play, Mooney makes a bad block, but Fields knows the pressure is going to come from that side, and he only has one guy to beat for a yard and he gets tripped up, doesn't put his hand down to keep his balance (Lamar did this 3 or 4 times last night), or doesn't try a stiff arm or juke. He could've even faked a pass to make the guy jump then run right by.

I posted in another thread, but Fields really has one game in his career that he won, the game against WAS. Outside of that game, there are no other wins that Fields was so dominant that he carried the team to victory. He has 2x 4Q comebacks, one was when Roquan intercepted the Mills pass, then Fields kneeled down before the GW FG. The other one was the win against MIN where they didn't score a TD. That's it, he has no other GWDs or 4QCs in 35 starts. 

[adam]

PFF Grades:

Defense dominated: Sweat 89.5, Johnson 85.3, Edwards 82.5 (Poles needs to extend Johnson now), Jackson 53.1, and Gordon 52.8. I have not heard Gordon's name called much lately. 

Offense was terrible: Jenkins 70.7 was the best offensive player with 10 or more snaps. The worst was Tonyan at 35.2, Nate Davis was 38.1. I do not think Davis is the answer at G. Fields was 48.8. 

Fields QBR for the game was a 16.6, 3rd lowest of the week (only DeVito and Ridder were lower). That drops Fields to 42.4 with 3 games remaining. 50.0 is league average (no stats). 

 

[AZ54]

14 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Oh Im for cutting the whole coaching staff loose, I just meant even if they do something i really disagree with, one thing you KNOW is Getsy is gone. But no, I want Eberflus gone too.

Which good HC candidate do you  think wants to come here knowing he’s on a 2 year leash?   

[Stinger226]

53 minutes ago, adam said:

The answer can be all of the above, but at some point, the elite players overcome all the obstacles.

It just seems like Fields falls flat when the team needs him the most. On the 4th and 1 play, Mooney makes a bad block, but Fields knows the pressure is going to come from that side, and he only has one guy to beat for a yard and he gets tripped up, doesn't put his hand down to keep his balance (Lamar did this 3 or 4 times last night), or doesn't try a stiff arm or juke. He could've even faked a pass to make the guy jump then run right by.

I posted in another thread, but Fields really has one game in his career that he won, the game against WAS. Outside of that game, there are no other wins that Fields was so dominant that he carried the team to victory. He has 2x 4Q comebacks, one was when Roquan intercepted the Mills pass, then Fields kneeled down before the GW FG. The other one was the win against MIN where they didn't score a TD. That's it, he has no other GWDs or 4QCs in 35 starts. 

 Justin isnt an elite player, probably would have a hard time finding 10 élite QBs in the league but that is your measuring stick? Unless Poles finds an elite QB, we are going to have this conversation every 2 yrs. How about just a QB that we can win with and sometimes he's the reason. 

Against the Browns Prudy 55.3 QBR,  Jackson 67.8 QBR, Lawrence 65.2 here's what elite QBs did against that defense and they all lost.  

[Stinger226]

9 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Which good HC candidate do you  think wants to come here knowing he’s on a 2 year leash?   

This is way complicated, as you said who is coming here with a 2 yr contract with the GM, not the most desirable situation with a GM that abandoned his coach  in two yrs? Its almost bring it all back or get rid of everybody. Does anybody thinks Poles fires himself?

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, adam said:

I posted in another thread, but Fields really has one game in his career that he won, the game against WAS. Outside of that game, there are no other wins that Fields was so dominant that he carried the team to victory.

But...what about the games where he had a 21 point lead (Denver), a 26-14 lead against Detroit in their first meeting or even yesterday?  An argument could be made that his "heroics" or 'domination' are what kept the Bears in those games too, even though they were losses.  

The observations you make of not juking when he should've, or put his hand down to gain that extra yard are ticky-tack superhero expectations when failing players like Mooney and Tonyan aren't catching passes, the coach isn't going for a FG to get points and the O-line looks like a sieve should all equally account (if not more) for the disastrous fall we saw yesterday.  

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, AZ54 said:

Which good HC candidate do you  think wants to come here knowing he’s on a 2 year leash?   

I think any coach that has the win loss record that Eberflus has can expect to get fired by any team. That's the NFL, not just the Bears.

I think Chicago is a great media market, we have draft picks, cap room - it's a dream job.

Also, unless you're keeping Getsy, I'll flip your question - what good OC would come here for Eberflus' last year? And why would you draft a new QB into that?

I would bet a LOT of good HC would love to come here.

And if I'm wrong about this, the answer would be to extend Poles to remove that issue?

[Stinger226]

AG its bash Fields day , you're just trying to be difficult.  I always stated we need to see the last 7 games to get a good read on Justin , so far the arrow is pointing down. The judgement has to do with who to replace him with also. If the coaches are any good. It's not just dumbing Fields in this scenario. 

I liken this to wanting a new car and sell the car before I buy another one. That might force me to buy a new car without properly checking out the new one. Or getting something worse because it looks good in the showroom. Lets figure it out before we sell, it may be the best option.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

 Justin isnt an elite player, probably would have a hard time finding 10 élite QBs in the league but that is your measuring stick? Unless Poles finds an elite QB, we are going to have this conversation every 2 yrs. How about just a QB that we can win with and sometimes he's the reason.

But you have to PAY Fields coming up, so if you're a build around a middle talent QB kind of guy, then you want a rookie deal so you have cap room to do that?

[BearFan PHX]

2 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

AG its bash Fields day , you're just trying to be difficult.

.

[adam]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

 Justin isnt an elite player, probably would have a hard time finding 10 élite QBs in the league but that is your measuring stick? Unless Poles finds an elite QB, we are going to have this conversation every 2 yrs. How about just a QB that we can win with and sometimes he's the reason. 

Against the Browns Prudy 55.3 QBR,  Jackson 67.8 QBR, Lawrence 65.2 here's what elite QBs did against that defense and they all lost.  

It is a very tough defense, and things were not in Fields favor at all, but the Bears faced a bunch of second stringers for the Browns and still struggled on offense. It just felt like the Browns could care less about Fields running. That wasn't a threat to them, which gave them an easy assignment to just meet at the QB. The defense is what kept them in this game though. 

[Stinger226]

1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said:

I think any coach that has the win loss record that Eberflus has can expect to get fired by any team. That's the NFL, not just the Bears.

I think Chicago is a great media market, we have draft picks, cap room - it's a dream job.

Also, unless you're keeping Getsy, I'll flip your question - what good OC would come here for Eberflus' last year? And why would you draft a new QB into that?

I would bet a LOT of good HC would love to come here.

For right now ( whoever it is) would you choose Chargers with a Herbert, Slater, Bosa, Ekeler, Allen or Chicago ? After the top guy is gone its going to be a crap shoot.  Nagy (an offensive mind) was hired because that is what modern NFL demands. That didnt work out. Its about finding the right coach and we will never find that if he only has 2 yrs to win. 

[Stinger226]

7 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

But you have to PAY Fields coming up, so if you're a build around a middle talent QB kind of guy, then you want a rookie deal so you have cap room to do that?

That argument doesnt apply to next year, he makes less money than a top 5 pick does. If Poles drafts his man then dont pick up the option and give your new QB a year to develop. If he doesnt , pay the 25 and give yourself another year to find him. 

[adam]

1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

But...what about the games where he had a 21 point lead (Denver), a 26-14 lead against Detroit in their first meeting or even yesterday?  An argument could be made that his "heroics" or 'domination' are what kept the Bears in those games too, even though they were losses.  

The observations you make of not juking when he should've, or put his hand down to gain that extra yard are ticky-tack superhero expectations when failing players like Mooney and Tonyan aren't catching passes, the coach isn't going for a FG to get points and the O-line looks like a sieve should all equally account (if not more) for the disastrous fall we saw yesterday.  

Part of his job is to stop the bleeding, help out the defense when they are struggling. Denver is a terrible example for Fields. Fields literally lost the game as one of the Broncos TDs was on his fumble, that gave them 7 pts and the Bears lost by 3. The defense only allowed 24 pts, enough to win, but the offense scored 28 but gave up 7 for a net of 21. Then after the bleeding continued and there was a chance to win the game they had a turnover on downs and an INT to seal it. 

In the DET first meeting, after they were up 26-14, the offense went 3 and out for 1 yard (26 second drive) and 1 play fumble/safety. They needed one first down and it was game over, and they couldn't get it. The defense gets blame here too but the Bears need a QB that can get that first down. Fields always seems to come up short, whether it is his fault or not. 

[DABEARSDABOMB]

9 hours ago, AZ54 said:

Which good HC candidate do you  think wants to come here knowing he’s on a 2 year leash?   

If Bears have the number 1 pick - than I think this is the best opening in football along with maybe the Chargers, but their ownership is a disaster (not saying Mccaskeys are great but compared to Spanos family they are amazing). 

[DABEARSDABOMB]

9 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

This is way complicated, as you said who is coming here with a 2 yr contract with the GM, not the most desirable situation with a GM that abandoned his coach  in two yrs? Its almost bring it all back or get rid of everybody. Does anybody thinks Poles fires himself?

I think Poles signed a 6 year deal so technically any HC he hires is basically aligned to Poles (he doesn’t get a 3rd hire unless the 2nd is a home run and wildly successful).